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Old 9th June 2010, 02:35 PM   #1
Neo
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Thank you for the reply, Mr. Maisey.

By "feel it", did you mean using the finger to run through the pamor to get the physical sense of the texture? Or were you referring to the "feel" as in "guoyo"?

I would like to know a lot more about "pamor that has been worked in non-standard ways", but I guess that's the part where I need to have people physically show me many examples of such things ...

My dream is to have a decent collection of Majapahit or other tangguh sepuh kerises (in addition to the finely made new ones), but there are lots of fakes out there and I have *a lot* to learn. Looks like it's going to be a long, challenging journey ... I would greatly appreciate pointers and advices about what to do to develop my keris discrimination skills - museums to visit, books to read, people to meet, etc. So far I have the following books: Bambang Harsrinuksmo's encyclopedia, Pak Haryono's book, and soon-to-come, the Keris For the World exhibition book. It would be far simpler if there is such a thing as "wesi aji course" complete with lab and case studies from each tangguh ... If they have it for wines, they should also have it for kerises!!

Well, enough complaining.. I will be grateful for suggestions of a "course plan" or "self study syllabus" to improve my keris skills
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Old 9th June 2010, 02:43 PM   #2
Rick
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Of course there are a lot more oenophiles(sp?) than there are kerisophiles .

Then again, that's a good thing .

Hopefully we can help you Neo .
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Old 9th June 2010, 08:35 PM   #3
A. G. Maisey
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By feel, I mean touching the blade with your fingers.

Some pamors have a greasy feel, others have a very slightly prickly feel, with others you can feel the topography --- they all feel different, so you combine how it looks with how it feels. But it can still be extremely difficult to be sure about pamor material.

There is really only one way to learn keris, and that is to have somebody with immense knowledge and patience, together with adequate physical examples, teach you. This is simply not available to everybody, so the knowledge we gain then needs to be of a different type, and that is gained by intelligent collection and personal study over an extended period of time.

Probably the most important thing for anybody to learn is how to identify quality in a keris, and you do not really need to be able to play the tangguh game to do that.

On "non standard ways", Ill see if I can post a couple of pics that may clarify, within a day or so.

In the mean time, you may care to have a look at the old "good keris" thread in the archives of this Forum.
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Old 10th June 2010, 06:27 AM   #4
Neo
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Thanks for the replies.

Rick: Yes, indeed it is something to be grateful about

Mr. Maisey: "In the mean time, you may care to have a look at the old "good keris" thread in the archives of this Forum". That's exactly what I've been doing. I guess thoroughly understanding the ricikan and dhapur characteristics from the books will make it easier to absorb new info when I get the opportunity to physically encounter kerises.

All these desire to learn about tangguh is mostly because I really hate to get "pretenders". I am happy enough to know that the keris is authentic and so for now, all I'd like get out of the "tangguh game" is to be confident to a certain degree about the approximate *ERA* the kris was from.

Well, some tangguh skill will also enable me to better enjoy exhibitions like "Kris for the World" that I just attended ... It was baffling for me to see some large kelengan krisses that look like they were just made couple decades ago being labeled as "Singosari" by the judges.

I'm looking forward to your info about "non standard ways", if you can find it.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:54 PM   #5
A. G. Maisey
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I can find what I want to show you OK, Neo, I just need time to do the pics. Maybe Saturday.
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Old 10th June 2010, 02:36 PM   #6
David
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
All these desire to learn about tangguh is mostly because I really hate to get "pretenders". I am happy enough to know that the keris is authentic and so for now, all I'd like get out of the "tangguh game" is to be confident to a certain degree about the approximate *ERA* the kris was from.
I think that Mr. Maisey will agree that it is pretty much impossible to learn to identify the tangguh of keris without hands-on experience with a teacher. The "tangguh game" is also a greatly misused one and tangguh really only applies to a select few keris. Once you get outside the area of kraton made keris tangguh becomes somewhat meaningless.

Last edited by David; 10th June 2010 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 10th June 2010, 11:53 PM   #7
A. G. Maisey
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Yes David, I do agree.

You need hands on tuition from somebody with a lot of knowledge and experience, and access to examples.

Its not quite meaningless when you move outside the area of quality, it can still be applied to a degree, for instance, tangguh Segaluh is extremely recognisable, it has almost never been copied in later periods, but it is hardly ever a high quality or expensive tangguh; Pajajaran, Tuban, Mataram Matesih, Godean --- and other tangguh --- are generally speaking not of exceptional quality, and not particularly expensive. But when you start to use the system on anything other than very good keris, it becomes more a rough indicator of age and value than anything else.

I personally like to think of it as a system of classification that can assist with an appraisal of value.

In Jawa it is regarded as the foundation of understanding, but in the rest of the world it is pretty much irrelevant.

There is much we can learn about keris without getting too involved with tangguh --- unless we live in Jawa.
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Old 11th June 2010, 02:20 PM   #8
Boedhi Adhitya
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Hello Neo,

Some pictures would certainly help, but I believe not as much as you would need. And anyway, you may find that the definition on pamor meteor, Luwu, sanak, etc would differ from one person to another which could end to confusion, no to say frustration. Needless to say, today keris makers have do their homework. They could match today's pamor appearance to the older blades. Not perfect, but the higher the new keris quality, the harder it is to discern, especially to the nem-neman tangguh. But yet, I will not say that studying pamor materials is useless. I just say it isn't everything you need. There is a lot, lot more.

Good books could help, but don't expect that much. What you really need is a hand-on, first experience on handling keris. A lot. The higher the keris quality that you handle, the better. But yes, unfortunately, there are a lot definitions on what so called "high-quality kerises".

Thus, before you invest a lot of your time and fortune on keris, I suggest you define clearly your "underlying motivation" on keris collecting. It is your guide. It will be your collection, not anybody else, and hence, it should serve your purpose. Keris collecting seems simple, but you will be amazed on how many motivation behind it.

Certainly, I'm not discouraging you. But I find a lot of peoples become confused and frustrated in the swirling world of keris. Others get angry from it's fraud. And I don't want it to be you, or any of us.
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Old 11th June 2010, 02:46 PM   #9
Neo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I personally like to think of it as a system of classification that can assist with an appraisal of value.
This is interesting. So people can determine the age and value of keris without using the tangguh standards? I thought the tangguh game is the only way to ascertain the authenticity of a keris. I am ten times more interested in authenticity than I am in luxury. While it is great to have a finely made Mataram Senopaten Nagasasra with finely detailed kinatah, I would rather use the same amount of money to purchase several authentic, nicely preserved krisses (with simpler dapur) from Pajajaran, Tuban, Majapahit, and some robust, healthy new kerises.

The thing is, like I said earlier, these days people fake everything - even the simple brojol with pejetan ... I just spent about Rp13jt on what seems to be a "pretender" keris and I'd like to make sure it doesn't happen again.

So, let's say I want to find an authentic simple "Sombro" style or a Tuban tilam upih with wos wutah ... how do I tell if a piece is authentic if I have no idea what the tangguh says about the ricikan, pamor, and wesi characteristics of krisses from the respective style?

Sorry if you find these questions very uninformed ... I'm just trying to be more prepared and structured so I could make my direct learning more productive. Greatly appreciate your info and advices so far ...
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