Need example of Pamors: Meteor, Luwu, and modern Nickel

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2010, 12:56 PM

Its actually a wee bit more complicated than that, Neo.

The most common old type of pamor is high phosphoric iron, or "white iron". This gives a rather subdued tone in greys to a pamor.

Once you move from this to the various other materials used in pamor it becomes somewhat more difficult to differentiate by sight alone.

Pamor Luwu owes its contrasting qualities to nickel content, and that nickel content can cover a pretty broad range, so if you get some Luwu with high nickel content, it doesn't look a whole lot different to European nickel.

With meteoritic pamor it depends on how its made, as to how it looks, and again, its not easy to judge from just looking at it --- we need to feel it.

Then we have pamor that used Dutch coins as the contrasting material, and as with meteoritic pamor, you really need to feel the material to have some idea of what it might be.

I've only mentioned the simple, easy stuff above. It can get a whole lot more difficult when you have pamor that has been worked in non-standard ways, or where some unusual material has been used.

I'm talking about sight judgement in the physical presence of the blade, not sight judgement from photos, and most certainly not sight judgement from images on a computer screen.

Neo · 9th June 2010, 02:35 PM

Thank you for the reply, Mr. Maisey.

By "feel it", did you mean using the finger to run through the pamor to get the physical sense of the texture? Or were you referring to the "feel" as in "guoyo"?

I would like to know a lot more about "pamor that has been worked in non-standard ways", but I guess that's the part where I need to have people physically show me many examples of such things ...

My dream is to have a decent collection of Majapahit or other tangguh sepuh kerises (in addition to the finely made new ones), but there are lots of fakes out there and I have *a lot* to learn. Looks like it's going to be a long, challenging journey ... I would greatly appreciate pointers and advices about what to do to develop my keris discrimination skills - museums to visit, books to read, people to meet, etc. So far I have the following books: Bambang Harsrinuksmo's encyclopedia, Pak Haryono's book, and soon-to-come, the Keris For the World exhibition book. It would be far simpler if there is such a thing as "wesi aji course" complete with lab and case studies from each tangguh ... If they have it for wines, they should also have it for kerises!!

Well, enough complaining.. I will be grateful for suggestions of a "course plan" or "self study syllabus" to improve my keris skills

Rick · 9th June 2010, 02:43 PM

Of course there are a lot more oenophiles(sp?) than there are kerisophiles .

Then again, that's a good thing .

Hopefully we can help you Neo .

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2010, 08:35 PM

By feel, I mean touching the blade with your fingers.

Some pamors have a greasy feel, others have a very slightly prickly feel, with others you can feel the topography --- they all feel different, so you combine how it looks with how it feels. But it can still be extremely difficult to be sure about pamor material.

There is really only one way to learn keris, and that is to have somebody with immense knowledge and patience, together with adequate physical examples, teach you. This is simply not available to everybody, so the knowledge we gain then needs to be of a different type, and that is gained by intelligent collection and personal study over an extended period of time.

Probably the most important thing for anybody to learn is how to identify quality in a keris, and you do not really need to be able to play the tangguh game to do that.

On "non standard ways", Ill see if I can post a couple of pics that may clarify, within a day or so.

In the mean time, you may care to have a look at the old "good keris" thread in the archives of this Forum.

Neo · 10th June 2010, 06:27 AM

Thanks for the replies.

Rick: Yes, indeed it is something to be grateful about

Mr. Maisey: "In the mean time, you may care to have a look at the old "good keris" thread in the archives of this Forum". That's exactly what I've been doing. I guess thoroughly understanding the ricikan and dhapur characteristics from the books will make it easier to absorb new info when I get the opportunity to physically encounter kerises.

All these desire to learn about tangguh is mostly because I really hate to get "pretenders". I am happy enough to know that the keris is authentic and so for now, all I'd like get out of the "tangguh game" is to be confident to a certain degree about the approximate *ERA* the kris was from.

Well, some tangguh skill will also enable me to better enjoy exhibitions like "Kris for the World" that I just attended ... It was baffling for me to see some large kelengan krisses that look like they were just made couple decades ago being labeled as "Singosari" by the judges.

I'm looking forward to your info about "non standard ways", if you can find it.

A. G. Maisey · 10th June 2010, 12:54 PM

I can find what I want to show you OK, Neo, I just need time to do the pics. Maybe Saturday.

David · 10th June 2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

All these desire to learn about tangguh is mostly because I really hate to get "pretenders". I am happy enough to know that the keris is authentic and so for now, all I'd like get out of the "tangguh game" is to be confident to a certain degree about the approximate *ERA* the kris was from.

I think that Mr. Maisey will agree that it is pretty much impossible to learn to identify the tangguh of keris without hands-on experience with a teacher. The "tangguh game" is also a greatly misused one and tangguh really only applies to a select few keris. Once you get outside the area of kraton made keris tangguh becomes somewhat meaningless.

A. G. Maisey · 10th June 2010, 11:53 PM

Yes David, I do agree.

You need hands on tuition from somebody with a lot of knowledge and experience, and access to examples.

Its not quite meaningless when you move outside the area of quality, it can still be applied to a degree, for instance, tangguh Segaluh is extremely recognisable, it has almost never been copied in later periods, but it is hardly ever a high quality or expensive tangguh; Pajajaran, Tuban, Mataram Matesih, Godean --- and other tangguh --- are generally speaking not of exceptional quality, and not particularly expensive. But when you start to use the system on anything other than very good keris, it becomes more a rough indicator of age and value than anything else.

I personally like to think of it as a system of classification that can assist with an appraisal of value.

In Jawa it is regarded as the foundation of understanding, but in the rest of the world it is pretty much irrelevant.

There is much we can learn about keris without getting too involved with tangguh --- unless we live in Jawa.

9th June 2010, 12:56 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Its actually a wee bit more complicated than that, Neo. The most common old type of pamor is high phosphoric iron, or "white iron". This gives a rather subdued tone in greys to a pamor. Once you move from this to the various other materials used in pamor it becomes somewhat more difficult to differentiate by sight alone. Pamor Luwu owes its contrasting qualities to nickel content, and that nickel content can cover a pretty broad range, so if you get some Luwu with high nickel content, it doesn't look a whole lot different to European nickel. With meteoritic pamor it depends on how its made, as to how it looks, and again, its not easy to judge from just looking at it --- we need to feel it. Then we have pamor that used Dutch coins as the contrasting material, and as with meteoritic pamor, you really need to feel the material to have some idea of what it might be. I've only mentioned the simple, easy stuff above. It can get a whole lot more difficult when you have pamor that has been worked in non-standard ways, or where some unusual material has been used. I'm talking about sight judgement in the physical presence of the blade, not sight judgement from photos, and most certainly not sight judgement from images on a computer screen.

9th June 2010, 02:35 PM	#2
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Thank you for the reply, Mr. Maisey. By "feel it", did you mean using the finger to run through the pamor to get the physical sense of the texture? Or were you referring to the "feel" as in "guoyo"? I would like to know a lot more about "pamor that has been worked in non-standard ways", but I guess that's the part where I need to have people physically show me many examples of such things ... My dream is to have a decent collection of Majapahit or other tangguh sepuh kerises (in addition to the finely made new ones), but there are lots of fakes out there and I have a lot to learn. Looks like it's going to be a long, challenging journey ... I would greatly appreciate pointers and advices about what to do to develop my keris discrimination skills - museums to visit, books to read, people to meet, etc. So far I have the following books: Bambang Harsrinuksmo's encyclopedia, Pak Haryono's book, and soon-to-come, the Keris For the World exhibition book. It would be far simpler if there is such a thing as "wesi aji course" complete with lab and case studies from each tangguh ... If they have it for wines, they should also have it for kerises!! Well, enough complaining.. I will be grateful for suggestions of a "course plan" or "self study syllabus" to improve my keris skills

9th June 2010, 02:43 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Of course there are a lot more oenophiles(sp?) than there are kerisophiles . Then again, that's a good thing . Hopefully we can help you Neo .

9th June 2010, 08:35 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	By feel, I mean touching the blade with your fingers. Some pamors have a greasy feel, others have a very slightly prickly feel, with others you can feel the topography --- they all feel different, so you combine how it looks with how it feels. But it can still be extremely difficult to be sure about pamor material. There is really only one way to learn keris, and that is to have somebody with immense knowledge and patience, together with adequate physical examples, teach you. This is simply not available to everybody, so the knowledge we gain then needs to be of a different type, and that is gained by intelligent collection and personal study over an extended period of time. Probably the most important thing for anybody to learn is how to identify quality in a keris, and you do not really need to be able to play the tangguh game to do that. On "non standard ways", Ill see if I can post a couple of pics that may clarify, within a day or so. In the mean time, you may care to have a look at the old "good keris" thread in the archives of this Forum.

10th June 2010, 06:27 AM	#5
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Thanks for the replies. Rick: Yes, indeed it is something to be grateful about Mr. Maisey: "In the mean time, you may care to have a look at the old "good keris" thread in the archives of this Forum". That's exactly what I've been doing. I guess thoroughly understanding the ricikan and dhapur characteristics from the books will make it easier to absorb new info when I get the opportunity to physically encounter kerises. All these desire to learn about tangguh is mostly because I really hate to get "pretenders". I am happy enough to know that the keris is authentic and so for now, all I'd like get out of the "tangguh game" is to be confident to a certain degree about the approximate ERA the kris was from. Well, some tangguh skill will also enable me to better enjoy exhibitions like "Kris for the World" that I just attended ... It was baffling for me to see some large kelengan krisses that look like they were just made couple decades ago being labeled as "Singosari" by the judges. I'm looking forward to your info about "non standard ways", if you can find it.

10th June 2010, 12:54 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I can find what I want to show you OK, Neo, I just need time to do the pics. Maybe Saturday.

10th June 2010, 11:53 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes David, I do agree. You need hands on tuition from somebody with a lot of knowledge and experience, and access to examples. Its not quite meaningless when you move outside the area of quality, it can still be applied to a degree, for instance, tangguh Segaluh is extremely recognisable, it has almost never been copied in later periods, but it is hardly ever a high quality or expensive tangguh; Pajajaran, Tuban, Mataram Matesih, Godean --- and other tangguh --- are generally speaking not of exceptional quality, and not particularly expensive. But when you start to use the system on anything other than very good keris, it becomes more a rough indicator of age and value than anything else. I personally like to think of it as a system of classification that can assist with an appraisal of value. In Jawa it is regarded as the foundation of understanding, but in the rest of the world it is pretty much irrelevant. There is much we can learn about keris without getting too involved with tangguh --- unless we live in Jawa.