PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

kai · 28th May 2010, 08:12 AM

Hello Pak Ganja,

Quote:

On the 'later ganja', with different metal material. Don't you think this keris was intentionally fitted with 'ganja wulung'?

You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2010, 09:30 AM

Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

I rest my case.

The blade is made of iron and steel and possibly nickel or other contrasting material. Only the steel is affected by heat treatment to harden during manufacture, and most blades are not hardened closer to the gonjo than about 6 or 7 cm. at most; often it is only the first few centis that are hardened, since the application of heat to remove a hilt is restricted to the sorsoran, the part of the blade that gets hot has not been hardened, which means that nothing short of red heat will affect that part of the blade --- of course, if you took it to red heat, the hardness further down the blade would be drawn because it would go into blue/yellow or higher, if it went higher than blue/yellow you would lose the hardness.

The way I work is to hold the hilt in one hand and the bare blade about 12 centis from the gonjo with the other hand. When the blade gets uncomfortably hot I take it away from the heat for a couple of minutes, then return it when it is cooler.

Working like this I can control the heat 100% and at the same time I can feel if the hilt itself is getting too hot, bear in mind that my hand is shielding the hilt from direct heat, any heat I can feel in the hilt is coming from the pesi.

When at home I use a propane torch with a relatively bushy flame that I hold in a vice and I pass the blade backwards and forth across the flame and alternate the sides, I can usually get 99% of hilts off in a few minutes, the very, very few that are stubborn get the heat/cool/heat/cool treatment over a number of days until they surrender.

When I'm in Solo I use either a little kerrosene lamp or a candle and play the flame directly and steadily onto the blade, when it comes time to try to separate blade and hilt I use an old bit of rag to grip the blade.

Using the lamp or the candle it is totally impossible to get the blade hot enough to do it any damage at all.

Using the propane torch it would be very easy for an inexperienced person to draw the blade hardness.

My concerns with hair dryers, ovens, boiling water , mirrors reflecting the sun's rays, geothermal heat, room heaters, etc, etc, etc is not that they will harm the blade material, but that because the heat cannot be localised and directed to a sufficiently small area, that heat will inevitably heat the hilt, and it will cause damage to some degree.

In respect of wood used for keris hilts.

It is recognised that it is not good for any wood to be exposed to direct sunlight, as the heat can cause cracking.However, the one wood which must never be exposed to heat or sunlight is tayuman. Another wood that is very susceptable to heat and moisture change is burl teak ( jati gembol). This wood moves and cracks can open up in it because of the movement.

Really, its just common sense:- nobody would consider for a moment that it was OK to place a piece of antique furniture in direct sunlight. Do this on a hot day and you could come back to something where all the joints had loosened and cracks had opened in the polished surfaces --- you might get away with it a couple times, but sooner or later you'll ruin something. So you just don't take the risk. No different with the wood used for keris dress. The caution should not be limited to only antique dress:- make a few enquiries of modern custom knifemakers and see how many will gaurantee natural materials in hilts and scabbards against cracking or distortion.

Jean · 29th May 2010, 12:52 PM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

Dear Alan,
Yes, I knew the risk but carefully analyzed it beforehand and took my chance, I will elaborate more about it, thank you for the detailed description of your procedure and I will try it next time.
Best regards
Jean

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

IMHO, Palembang style was much influenced to javanese style. We could still see until now, many old Palembang blades are sometimes quite similar to javanese blades. A ganjawulung fixed to a blade, is quite common in Java. And I think it could be common to Palembang style too.

(Images below, the more complete picture of my Palembang keris, with another silver pendokok...)

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 01:48 AM

And another close up of the hilt and the silver pendokok...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 04:29 AM

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

PenangsangII · 2nd June 2010, 05:06 AM

Dear Pak Ganjawulung,

IMHO, Cirebonese hilts are the most flexible. It can match any Javanese blade and Wrangka, or Malay blade and sarung..... even Buginese's.

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 05:33 AM

Yes, Penangsang,

Agree. If you have a Segaluh keris -- with the specific protruding gandhik with sekar kacang -- it is difficult to get a match pairing with javanese (solonese, or jogjanese) hilt. But almost certain, will match with Cirebon hilt. Especially the "buta" hilt...

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 2nd June 2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Pak Ganjawulung,

can you show us a closeup view from the hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

ganjawulung · 3rd June 2010, 03:39 AM

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 3rd June 2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

Thank you, very fine and dilly carved hilt and doesn't disturb the overall impression of the ensemble even it is from Cirebon.

2nd June 2010, 01:48 AM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	And another close up of the hilt and the silver pendokok... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

2nd June 2010, 04:29 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Another Palembang Keris Dear All, Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

3rd June 2010, 03:39 AM	#10
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Cirebon Hilt (close up) Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

28th May 2010, 09:30 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them. I rest my case. The blade is made of iron and steel and possibly nickel or other contrasting material. Only the steel is affected by heat treatment to harden during manufacture, and most blades are not hardened closer to the gonjo than about 6 or 7 cm. at most; often it is only the first few centis that are hardened, since the application of heat to remove a hilt is restricted to the sorsoran, the part of the blade that gets hot has not been hardened, which means that nothing short of red heat will affect that part of the blade --- of course, if you took it to red heat, the hardness further down the blade would be drawn because it would go into blue/yellow or higher, if it went higher than blue/yellow you would lose the hardness. The way I work is to hold the hilt in one hand and the bare blade about 12 centis from the gonjo with the other hand. When the blade gets uncomfortably hot I take it away from the heat for a couple of minutes, then return it when it is cooler. Working like this I can control the heat 100% and at the same time I can feel if the hilt itself is getting too hot, bear in mind that my hand is shielding the hilt from direct heat, any heat I can feel in the hilt is coming from the pesi. When at home I use a propane torch with a relatively bushy flame that I hold in a vice and I pass the blade backwards and forth across the flame and alternate the sides, I can usually get 99% of hilts off in a few minutes, the very, very few that are stubborn get the heat/cool/heat/cool treatment over a number of days until they surrender. When I'm in Solo I use either a little kerrosene lamp or a candle and play the flame directly and steadily onto the blade, when it comes time to try to separate blade and hilt I use an old bit of rag to grip the blade. Using the lamp or the candle it is totally impossible to get the blade hot enough to do it any damage at all. Using the propane torch it would be very easy for an inexperienced person to draw the blade hardness. My concerns with hair dryers, ovens, boiling water , mirrors reflecting the sun's rays, geothermal heat, room heaters, etc, etc, etc is not that they will harm the blade material, but that because the heat cannot be localised and directed to a sufficiently small area, that heat will inevitably heat the hilt, and it will cause damage to some degree. In respect of wood used for keris hilts. It is recognised that it is not good for any wood to be exposed to direct sunlight, as the heat can cause cracking.However, the one wood which must never be exposed to heat or sunlight is tayuman. Another wood that is very susceptable to heat and moisture change is burl teak ( jati gembol). This wood moves and cracks can open up in it because of the movement. Really, its just common sense:- nobody would consider for a moment that it was OK to place a piece of antique furniture in direct sunlight. Do this on a hot day and you could come back to something where all the joints had loosened and cracks had opened in the polished surfaces --- you might get away with it a couple times, but sooner or later you'll ruin something. So you just don't take the risk. No different with the wood used for keris dress. The caution should not be limited to only antique dress:- make a few enquiries of modern custom knifemakers and see how many will gaurantee natural materials in hilts and scabbards against cracking or distortion.

29th May 2010, 12:52 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them. Dear Alan, Yes, I knew the risk but carefully analyzed it beforehand and took my chance, I will elaborate more about it, thank you for the detailed description of your procedure and I will try it next time. Best regards Jean

2nd June 2010, 05:06 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear Pak Ganjawulung, IMHO, Cirebonese hilts are the most flexible. It can match any Javanese blade and Wrangka, or Malay blade and sarung..... even Buginese's.

2nd June 2010, 05:33 AM	#8
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Yes, Penangsang, Agree. If you have a Segaluh keris -- with the specific protruding gandhik with sekar kacang -- it is difficult to get a match pairing with javanese (solonese, or jogjanese) hilt. But almost certain, will match with Cirebon hilt. Especially the "buta" hilt... GANJAWULUNG