The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 08:57 PM #236

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that.
.

[fernando]

Old 28th May 2012, 06:16 PM #237

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by fernando
Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that. (Quote)

Salaams fernando ~ Yes I had my doubts when I saw the & in the final circle of the stamp which is as you point out Latin(Et = & = and) and would agree that it is either a Spanish or German stamp. (Solingen did a lot of copying and vica versa.) Regarding the snake insignia etched on swords there is an interesting link on Omani Sayf; markings for ID by Ilyiad on the Ethnographic forum which is interesting.
In addition it carries the running wolf copied stamp. In fact on the subject of the running woolf there are two forms;
1. The Passau of Germany(Solingen) and
2. The Perrillo of Spain (Toledo)

Whilst the former tends to be a running woolf the latter appears as a prancing or rearing dog. Good sword stamps appear copied onto Arabian swords but it is a puzzle since no one has defined from which area the stamp was copied..

Was it the German or Spanish stamp copied by middle eastern swordsmiths..?

On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 29th May 2012, 04:54 PM #238

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent observations as always Ibrahiim!
Thank you for the reference to the 'rocker' type punches on the Omani blade which indeed seem to correspond to the snake/serpent type mark being discussed. This does seem to have a rather mechanical stylized similarity to the 13th century latteen inlaid mark presented by Cornelistromp on another thread, and was used by medieval swordsmiths on thier blades presumably in German shops. It is always of course compelling evidence that these early blades were seen in Arab/North African/East African trade contexts and the use of the images carried forth in local work.

While the perillo (=little dog) image attributed to Julian del Rey in Spain does seem to have had similar impact on some native markings in North African context (Briggs, 1965), it does not seem to have been duplicated in the rest of Europe to the best of my knowledge. The 'running wolf of Passau' of course was somewhat widely duplicated in vast variation in Europe as well as the Caucusus, North Africa and probably Arabia in some degree which remains unclear.

It seems the ampersand (&) symbol did also appear in some markings and print but as far as I know this device was not widely used until more recent times on blades. It would be interesting to look further into that aspect.

All the best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 29th May 2012, 06:31 PM #239

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

My perspective of the mark on the forte not looking Arabic script was not the suggested & but the geometric incomplete figure rright below, by (me) being originaly influenced by the letter T of Toledo. The symbol above, which i can understand that Ibrahiim sees it like a &, would have been for me some kind of crown ... again influenced by traditional mark fashions. However for as much as it looks like the ampersand, i could never imagine such figure stamped in XVII century swords.
But of course this could also be a German (Solingen) blade, mounted with a Spanish (not to say Portuguese) hilt.
I am convinced that the localizing of the "snake symbol" of the blade would help to decipher the riddle.
The symbol on Ilyad's saif would be a distinct thing. Its zig-zag lines are angulated, not waving, which makes it a different attitude.
As quoted by Jim, while the Passau wolf has been copied all over, the perrillo of Julian del Rey did not reach so large universe. Furthermore, each of them has a rather different basis; while the Passau wolf, despite its several variations, appears to be an unequivocal zoomorphical specimen, the perrillo gives place to determined speculation. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, in his work on Julian del Rey, while suggesting that:
A- the guy was a morillo (Moor), a Jineta sword smith who worked for Boabdil, was converted to christianism by the Catholic Kings after the take over of Granada, thus receiving the last name of del Rey (of the King, or King's),
B -presents some doubts on the zoomorphic figure being a dog or a lion.
The figure of a lion was (and still is) an heraldic symbol present in several Spanish cities and could have well been the quality inspection mark of Zaragoza, where Julian del Rey worked, as reminded in Palomar's nomina.
It is also suggested that Palomar might have adopted a position for the animal, in his drawing, not exactly as it should appear.
On the other hand Edouard de Beaumont connects the perrilo in the blade of a jineta present in the National Paris Library to Julian del Rey while in his Granadine personality, giving logic to the later appearance of the dog in Julian's swords.
To complicate (even more) the things, i here attach one more (of other) mark/s used by Julian del Rey, this one present in sword kept at the Musée de l'Armée in Paris.
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[fernando]

Old 30th May 2012, 07:17 AM #240

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Salaams Jim and Fernando ~ This has been a vertical learning curve for me but an essential lesson in bringing the important area of Spanish, Italian, German and indeed Scottish blades into focus.
I have a work in progress on Portuguese weapons owned by me(20 years ago) but now with new owners but have been promised photographs ... In the old days there were quite a few Rapiers in the Oman left over from pre 1650 vintage days.
Even though I twist the stamp detail around still I cannot see Toledo and I still think the ampersand & in a circle is perhaps the strap from a horn viz;

~ On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks?

It may, however, be something totally different.

Thank you for your replies.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 4th June 2012, 09:42 PM #241

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end.
The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following:
It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword.
As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present.
This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth.
Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol.
Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately .

.

[fernando]

Old 4th June 2012, 10:14 PM #242

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Another sword i remembered having seen at a neighbour collector, with the snake and its mouth ... and other traditional symbols

(missing attachments)

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