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Old 20th May 2012, 05:50 PM   #1
fernando
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Default Another cup hilt rapier

This one is a bit more sophisticated, as its hilt is more elaborated, in a way an added value evolution of the basic cup bowl.
We call this cup Margarida (daisy=flower), to distinguish it from the classic shell cup.
The copper grip wiring sure looks original with its 'twist' efect, locked by two nice copper turkish heads.
The pommel shows some decoration.
Also worthy of note is what apparently seems to be a quite atypical guarda polvo (dust guard) device, which is not the usual detachabale washer but a convex cup, forming one only piece with the arms that are welded to the quillons for the cup guard fixation.
The lenticular double edged blade is 86 cms long and 23 m/m wide, bearing a poorly stoke mark in both sides that i can't (so far) identify. I would say that it is more frequent to see sword makers marks in the recazo inside the cup and not in the forte, like this one. Could it be an inspection mark, like that the crowned T used by the city of Toledo ? ... But in both sides?
The 'worm' waving mark is not an uncommon sign, but i ignore what it means.
The whole sword measure 1,050 Mts and the blade point of balance is 13 cms. from the quillons. Total weight 907 grams.
Again i thank the members for opinions and any possible help on the marks.

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Old 20th May 2012, 09:09 PM   #2
Norman McCormick
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Hi Fernando,
Lovely items both you are becoming quite the 'swashbuckler'!!!!
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 20th May 2012, 10:18 PM   #3
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Looks like the devil's tail on the blade .
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Old 20th May 2012, 11:12 PM   #4
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Fernando,

Thanks for posting the measurements.

The blade seems a bit short for a rapier. Did you take it from the cup or the quillons?

Cheers
Chris
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Old 21st May 2012, 01:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
... The blade seems a bit short for a rapier. Did you take it from the cup or the quillons? ...

From the cup; from the quillons will be 92,5 cms.
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Old 21st May 2012, 01:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Looks like the devil's tail on the blade .

You mean that little V in the end of the worm ?
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Old 21st May 2012, 01:41 PM   #7
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New pictures of the mark.

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Old 21st May 2012, 05:13 PM   #8
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the v is the "stylistic" head of the serpent/dragon, I have a medieval sword in my collection 13thC, with a similar inlay.
A snake is in the Christian symbolism a symbol of the Fall and a symbol of life.

best,
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Old 21st May 2012, 08:25 PM   #9
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Thanks for the enlightening Jasper
... and what a nice sword you have there
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Old 22nd May 2012, 11:55 PM   #10
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Hi Fernando,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
From the cup; from the quillons will be 92,5 cms.


That's more like it - Corresponds to a transition era rapier's length.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 23rd May 2012, 07:39 PM   #11
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is 100-112cm allover not the usual lenght for this type of mid 17thc cuphilt rapier?
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Old 23rd May 2012, 10:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
is 100-112cm allover not the usual lenght for this type of mid 17thc cuphilt rapier?

This is an interesting issue.
My knowledge of these things is less than empirical, but judging by the residual information i have, the length of (these) swords was a controversial matter in their period. The longer the sword the greater ascendent you would have in confrontations, as enabling you to keep your adversary at distance.
On the other hand, during the XVI century (more than one) Monarchs have established the maximum length of swords ... not just the blade but the whole weapon, precisely because of the reach.
Five palms (span) were the limit, this corresponding to 110 cms. Obviously this was "only the law", as seven palm swords, so called fora de marca (off mark), were quite popular. Eventually as a way to escape law pursuit, plenty of these sword blades found their way to Asia (India), to be mounted in Patas and Firangis.
In an extreme situation, swords of seven palms (154 cms) only of blade have appeared; other examples could even be stretched, as to show a legal length in normal circumstances and only be extended for a fight.
But judging by a book i have with various examples and considering the practical need for the contemporary common man, the length range you present seems quite reasonable to me; but again, i am not even close from expertise.
I am posting here some "off mark" rapiers, shown in the book AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES, by Eduardo Nobre. The example on the right measures 153 cms. .... with a blade of 132,5 cms by 25 m/m.
Eventually the two rapiers i am presently posting for discussion belonged in this author's collection and are depicted in this book.

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Old 4th June 2012, 09:31 PM   #13
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Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end.
The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following:
It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword.
As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present.
This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth.
Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol.
Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately .

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Old 4th June 2012, 10:12 PM   #14
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Another sword i remembered having seen at a neighbour collector, with the snake and its mouth ... and other traditional symbols


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