The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:04 PM

Old 30th November 2011, 01:49 AM #217

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by TVV
Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus?

Teodor (Quote)

Hi Teodor,
As far as I know there were numerous blades from Caucasian areas and Solingen issued as blanks and were often marked by vendors, importers etc. in trade centers as received and mounted. The very incongruent arrangement of the lettering suggests of course somewhat inept copying of earlier similarly fullered blades from East Europe with the dual Genoa marks. These blades might have entered at many points into the Red Sea trade sphere, and could have been passed around for generations much as kaskara blades and takouba blades were.

All the best,
Jim
,

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:04 PM

Old 30th November 2011, 08:47 AM #218

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,409

Jim,

Interestingly enough Marian Glosek "Miecze srodkowoueropejskie X-XV w. was mentioned by Berber Dagger in a swap forum.

I thumbed through the book with a little more interest after this post surfaced again and found within the pages and pages and pages of trade marks from the X-XV centuries, of real interest is the back to back cresents like the Gurda marks except that the 'teeth' are not present....it is seen in figure 53.

My mind wanders to fanciful places sometimes but perhaps it is an earlier EU guild mark that developed to what it is with the teeth.

Gav
,

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:05 PM

Old 1st December 2011, 03:05 AM #219

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thanks so much for the input Gav, and well placed thoughts on the development of these marks, which seem to be shrouded in mystery as to thier actual origin and development though North Italy seems the most accepted region. These also occur in varied configurations in many Italian blades, most of the arcs do seem to be dentated however.
Good to temporally travel to fanciful places....often there lurk the answers !

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:05 PM

Old 9th December 2011, 02:16 AM #220

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

The arm extending from the cloud brandishing a sword is a decorative device often seen on blades of 17th and 18th c. and came up in a concurrent thread (diamond design in hilt) while discussing certain similarities in motif corresponding to arcane symbolism. The tarot art showing the 'wands' (suit of clubs) has an arms extending in this manner with a wand.

Any other examples of this arm and sword device and thoughts on what it might represent.....associations to tarot type symbolism?
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:05 PM

Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum.
The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic.

While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly.

The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together.
The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:06 PM

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:06 PM

Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany
Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972
CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886)
CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921)
CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972)
.

Victrix · 10th February 2018, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

19th October 2017, 03:04 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 30th November 2011, 01:49 AM #217 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by TVV Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus? Teodor (Quote) Hi Teodor, As far as I know there were numerous blades from Caucasian areas and Solingen issued as blanks and were often marked by vendors, importers etc. in trade centers as received and mounted. The very incongruent arrangement of the lettering suggests of course somewhat inept copying of earlier similarly fullered blades from East Europe with the dual Genoa marks. These blades might have entered at many points into the Red Sea trade sphere, and could have been passed around for generations much as kaskara blades and takouba blades were. All the best, Jim , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:10 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 1st December 2011, 03:05 AM #219 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thanks so much for the input Gav, and well placed thoughts on the development of these marks, which seem to be shrouded in mystery as to thier actual origin and development though North Italy seems the most accepted region. These also occur in varied configurations in many Italian blades, most of the arcs do seem to be dentated however. Good to temporally travel to fanciful places....often there lurk the answers ! All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:11 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:05 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 9th December 2011, 02:16 AM #220 Posted by. Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 The arm extending from the cloud brandishing a sword is a decorative device often seen on blades of 17th and 18th c. and came up in a concurrent thread (diamond design in hilt) while discussing certain similarities in motif corresponding to arcane symbolism. The tarot art showing the 'wands' (suit of clubs) has an arms extending in this manner with a wand. Any other examples of this arm and sword device and thoughts on what it might represent.....associations to tarot type symbolism? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:12 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:05 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum. The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic. While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly. The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together. The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:13 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:06 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:14 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:04 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gurda Old 30th November 2011, 08:47 AM #218 Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,409 Jim, Interestingly enough Marian Glosek "Miecze srodkowoueropejskie X-XV w. was mentioned by Berber Dagger in a swap forum. I thumbed through the book with a little more interest after this post surfaced again and found within the pages and pages and pages of trade marks from the X-XV centuries, of real interest is the back to back cresents like the Gurda marks except that the 'teeth' are not present....it is seen in figure 53. My mind wanders to fanciful places sometimes but perhaps it is an earlier EU guild mark that developed to what it is with the teeth. Gav , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:11 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:06 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Makers Mark Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223 Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972 CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886) CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921) CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972) . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:15 PM.

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