Sword for identification

[Pertinax]

Приветствую всех участников форума, благодарю что позволили мне присоединиться к Вашему сообществу.
В моей небольшой коллекции есть необычный меч. На клинке помимо всего прочего присутствует надпись. Для идентификации предмета, я вначале предпринял попытки перевести (расшифровать) этот текст. Изучил многие «живые» и «мертвые» языки, таблички рун, обращался к профессиональным переводчикам и лингвистам, но не удается не то, что перевести, но и определить алфавит. Некоторые буквы встречаются в древнеармянской и эфиопской азбуке. Пытались читать текст в зеркальном отображении, но это тоже результатов не принесло.
В 2022 г. в течении 3 месяцев этот предмет обсуждался на российском форуме (здесь присутствуют коллеги, которые принимали участие в обсуждении). Высказывалось очень много любопытных и интересных версий, но окончательно идентифицировать предмет не удалось. Сошлись во мнении, что предмет ритуальный для мистерий или подношений к храму/святилищу не ранее конца 19-го века.
Технические характеристики: общий размер - 1005 мм, длина клинка - 850 мм, длина рукояти - 155 мм, ширина клинка у пяты - 43 мм, толщина клинка у пяты – 3 мм, длина ножен - 870 мм; вес – 1092 г. Ножны подвергались реставрации.
Буду благодарен за любые версии происхождения и принадлежности предмета, заранее благодарю.
С уважением Юрий.

Greetings to all forum participants, thank you for allowing me to join your community.
I have an unusual sword in my small collection. On the blade, among other things, there is an inscription. To identify the subject, I first made attempts to translate (decipher) this text. I have studied many “living” and “dead” languages, rune tablets, contacted professional translators and linguists, but I cannot not only translate, but also determine the alphabet. Some letters are found in the ancient Armenian and Ethiopian alphabet. We tried to read the text in mirror image, but this also did not bring results.
In 2022, this subject was discussed at a Russian forum for 3 months (colleagues who took part in the discussion are present here). A lot of curious and interesting versions were expressed, but it was not possible to definitively identify the object. It was agreed that the object was a ritual item for mysteries or offerings to a temple/sanctuary no earlier than the end of the 19th century.
Technical characteristics: overall size - 1005 mm, blade length - 850 mm, handle length - 155 mm, blade width at the heel - 43 mm, blade thickness at the heel - 3 mm, sheath length - 870 mm; weight – 1092 g. The scabbard has been restored.
I would be grateful for any versions of the origin and ownership of the item, thank you in advance.
Regards, Yuri.

[Pertinax]

More photos

[Pertinax]

More photos

[Tim Simmons]

The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

[Tim Simmons]

Seems to be a well known combination. I thought this is a good interpretation. As I said I am probably way off and wrong. Just another way of looking at the possible origins of the sword.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

Привет Тим!
Большое спасибо, очень интересная версия. Я, к сожалению, не владею английским языком, поэтому пользуюсь переводчиком. В стране, где я живу нет термина Кавказская Албания. Где этот регион находится?

Hello Tim!
Thank you very much, very interesting version. Unfortunately, I do not speak English, so I use a translator. In the country where I live there is no term Caucasian Albania. Where is this region located?

[Tim Simmons]

Surely we must be looking at a long eared owl. The other things look like human bird transformation? Could the man on the grip be Amirani Georgian hero? he has a dog Q'ursha. Cannot find anything about an owl but some stuff about eagles. Transformation in the myths could be to an owl. Just having some fun on a wet and windy holiday.

[tomato77]

I can't help but be reminded of a Husa Khampa from Tibet even though the inscriptions obviously point in a totally different direction. Take a look at mine: It somehow got several similar features in overall shape.
Best
Thomas

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by tomato77

I can't help but be reminded of a Husa Khampa from Tibet even though the inscriptions obviously point in a totally different direction. Take a look at mine: It somehow got several similar features in overall shape.
Best
Thomas

Привет Томас!
Когда я приобретал этот меч он был заявлен как – тибетский церемониальный меч типа «дпа’дам», но в дальнейшем в ходе обсуждений эта версия не подтвердилась. На форуме присутствуют эксперты по Тибету, Китаю, Кавказу, Востоку которые принимали участие в прошлом обсуждении. Я надеюсь, что они выскажут свои версии.
Hello Thomas!

When I acquired this sword, he was declared as a Tibetan ceremonial sword of the dpa’dam, but in the future, during the discussion, this version was not confirmed. On the forum there are experts on Tibet, China, the Caucasus, the east of which took part in the last discussion. I hope they will express their versions.

[Tim Simmons]

Map

[Pertinax]

Спасибо Тим, но по мнению историков албанское государство на территории Кавказа прекратило свое существование в IX веке, а обсуждаемый предмет под этот период не подходит.

Thanks to Tim, but according to historians, the Albanian state in the Caucasus ceased to exist in the 9th century, and the subject under discussion is not suitable for this period.

[werecow]

Presumably this is the alphabet in question? I'm not seeing most of the characters on the blade though.

Church Slavonic also has some overlap maybe.

[Tim Simmons]

The script might depend on how well it is cut into the blade. The person whow cut it might have been illiterate and copying poorly written script?

[milandro]

looking around came across this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1655

the sword MAY be Armenian or Caucasian but is it me or this blade is just too crisp to be really old ?



I would suggest sending a mail to this Armenian museum

https://historymuseum.am/en/հայաստան...#1381;ն/

[Tim Simmons]

Cool.

[Oliver Pinchot]

It isn't Armenian, though some of the characters are similar to Armenian, also to Russian. They were likely intended to seem like a foreign inscription, rather than any particular meaning per se.

This work was done in the general region of N. Iran, possibly Azarbaijan, after 1900. It was most likely made for the Shi'ite Ashura.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

It isn't Armenian, though some of the characters are similar to Armenian, also to Russian. They were likely intended to seem like a foreign inscription, rather than any particular meaning per se.

This work was done in the general region of N. Iran, possibly Azarbaijan, after 1900. It was most likely made for the Shi'ite Ashura.

Спасибо Оливер Пинчот
Каджарское происхождение предмета очень интересная версия, но надпись опровергает эту версию. По мнению экспертов имитация любого другого шрифта на персидском предмете каджарского периода абсолютно исключена.
В ходе своих поисков, я пришел к выводу, что предмет нужно рассматривать в комплексе. На нем слишком много неопознанных и противоречивых элементов. Возможно, разгадка будет найдена если будет найден подобный меч.
По надписи – текст повторяется, похоже на некое заклинание.

Thanks Oliver Pinchot
The Qajar origin of the object is a very interesting version, but the inscription refutes this version. According to experts, imitation of any other script on a Persian object from the Qajar period is absolutely impossible.
During my search, I came to the conclusion that the subject needs to be considered in its entirety. There are too many unidentified and contradictory elements on it. Perhaps the answer will be found if a similar sword is found.
According to the inscription, the text is repeated, it looks like some kind of spell.

[Tim Simmons]

I think there is some similarity to the artwork to this piece? almost the same hand?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29643

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think there is some similarity to the artwork to this piece? almost the same hand?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29643

Hi Tim

IMHO there is only a slight resemblance in appearance. The technique is different.

Pay attention to the shape of the sword hilt and the element that I highlighted. This detail has not yet been found on other swords.

Also, take a close look at the men on the handle, they are clearly Asian in appearance.

Regards, Yuri

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

It isn't Armenian, though some of the characters are similar to Armenian, also to Russian. They were likely intended to seem like a foreign inscription, rather than any particular meaning per se.

This work was done in the general region of N. Iran, possibly Azarbaijan, after 1900. It was most likely made for the Shi'ite Ashura.

Hi Oliver Pinchot! You are absolutely right.

After 5 years of searching, I received authoritative conclusions from specialists on Iran - a sword for Ashura, a Caucasian item, presumably Azerbaijan and Dagestan, where all these ceremonies were and are held.

According to experts, this version is confirmed by the quality of the blade, patterns, mythological images (pre-Islamic folk imagery was woven into the t'azie texts), ornaments, the quality of the metal carving and the imitation of the inscription with some letters reminiscent of Armenian, the shape of the handle, the binder with the tang.

Shiites in all communities of the world celebrate Ashura as a mourning day and conduct a complex of ritual actions: mourning ceremonies and rituals in memory of the martyrdom in 680 (or 61 AH) of the son of Ali, grandson of the Prophet Muhammad - Imam Hussein, his brother Abbas and an army of 70 shahids as a result of the battle with the troops of Caliph Yazid I in the Battle of Karbala. One of the ceremonies in which weapons were used was the so-called t'azie-je šabi - theatrical performances based on the events of Karbala, which were staged during the period of 'ashura' and in the following month of Safar. These mysteries appeared in the middle of the 18th century, although many researchers date them back to the end of the 17th century. One could come to these performances for free, and they were usually organized by wealthy townspeople, for example, merchants, at their own expense. Organizing such performances, as well as participating in them, was a godly deed, and there were quite a few places where these performances took place, called takia or hosayniya.

Takia were decorated according to the possibilities of the organizers, it is noted that among other elements of the design of takie, "very large sabers made of some soft metal with carved hilts that hang from the walls and sway" are mentioned.

The types of blades, their sizes, design and, in general, the composition of the weapons depended on the specific place where the t'azie was held.

At one time, the Iranian researcher Shahidi wrote:

- that if, for example, the shawls used to decorate the takia could be easily bought at the bazaar, then it was much more difficult to acquire the equally necessary "shamshir, armor, helmet and standard." Therefore, it must be assumed that such weapons were mostly made to order, and their quality should have varied depending on the amount of takia donations spent on them or the amount of funds of those people who arranged the t'azie.

Shiites make up a significant part of the population in the Caucasus, especially in Azerbaijan and partly in Dagestan, as well as in other regions of the Caucasus.

Thus, it can be assumed with a high degree of probability that an order was made for the manufacture of this sword to conduct the ritual. The craftsmen could have been of Armenian origin.

The same authoritative source noted that the pseudo-inscription should not be confusing - such could well be on Ashura items, because in the 19th century, not everyone knew Arabic well in the Iranian-speaking environment, especially in the Caucasus.

There is nothing special to read in the pseudo-text, but one should not treat it with disdain either - this is an attempt to introduce the object into the intellectual culture to which weapons have always belonged.

All such items were made individually and everything depended solely on the customer’s wallet and the imagination of the performer.

[Ian]

Wonderful rundown of this highly unusual sword Yuri. Thanks to Oliver also, and other contributors, for this most interesting discussion.

Ian