The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

4th November 2007, 07:56 PM

Posted by:

Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Early makers trade marks

It is well known that often one of the key elements in studying ethnographic edged weapons is that of the trade blades often found mounted in them. I have tried using our search feature to research certain established markings often found on a number of these, but feel that it might be a more effective resource if we began a thread with discussion focused on known markings.

I am hoping we can focus for example on the 'running wolf' of Passau, which evolved into forms stamped in the blades of Styria, Solingen and eventually in the Hounslow blades and Shotley Bridge blades of German makers in England.
There is an especially interesting chart on the chronological development of this mark in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons") ...could anyone with this book please post? Also there is I believe a note on the marking in Oakeshott ("Archaeology of Weapons"). ...also please post anyone?
Also, I believe the running wolf in Chechen blades is termed 'Ters Maymal' (check Askhabov, "Chechen Weapons").

Other key examples would be the 'sickle', 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoan blades. These evolved also via Genoan colonies into Styria, Solingen and Chechnya (where they are termed 'gurda', see Askhabov again). These occur almost consistantly on examples of Afghan paluoars, and on trade blades in many regions.

The familiar 'Andrea Ferara' seen in the fullers of various straight blades of 17th-18th century seen on Scottish basket hilts, English mortuary swords, khanda 'ferangi' in India and others. Any examples of this appearing on trade blades would be essential. While often held by early writers to have been the purloined name of an early Italian swordsmith that became used over centuries as with the Islamic Assad Adullah marking, it has been suggested that rather than a name it is actually a term. Ferara (=iron) Andrea (=true, ?)
Much as in the term Eisenhauer on many German blades (Eisen = iron) (hauer=cutter).
Sahugun, on early Spanish blades..name of maker? or place?

The talismanic blades of the 18th century....the man in the moon, the human faced sun and the star ....what is the application of these astral figures? These are widely copied on native blades, especially in the Sudan and the Sahara. We need examples of the European blades as well as the native mounted ones.

'The Spanish Motto', do not draw me without reason, nor sheath me without honor. This occurs in about mid 18th century, and while associated with Spanish blades of the period, it turns out these blades, typically Spanish dragoon blades c. 1769 were actually produced in Solingen.

These are what seem to comprise the most commonly encountered markings on blades associated with trade and ethnographic weapons. I hope that anyone so inclined will quote and address any of these examples so that we might all benefit from discussion focused on them and the topic in general.
The comprehensive research resources and outstanding examples in the collections of the members and readers here is well established, and I would very much like to see these employed in a useful resource for us all.

Thank you in advance everyone!

With all very best regards,

Jim

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[fernando]

Posted by:

Rich

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004


Here are some early Italian makers marks.

Rich S

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[fernando]

Posted by:

Fernando



Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
'The Spanish Motto', do not draw me without reason, nor sheath me without honor. This occurs in about mid 18th century, and while associated with Spanish blades of the period, it turns out these blades, typically Spanish dragoon blades c. 1769 were actually produced in Solingen.[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim
This Motto is much older than that.
In the collection of the Portuguese Viscount of Pindela, published in 1946, swords #35 and #39 bear this Motto. These sords are dated XVI century.
This is a very serious (rare) publication (which i luckily have), sponsored by the State. The collection was kept in the family's Mannor house, where it was catalogued, and was later sold to the State, due to the family's financial situation. It is now in exhibition in one of the National Palaces.
Hpe this is usefull.
Fernando

[fernando]

Old 4th November 2007, 10:56 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748

Thanks so much Rich and Fernando for getting things rolling!!!
The Italian marks are great Rich.....I had a copy of the huge volume "Armi Bianchi Italiene" which I wish I had access to....these Italian marks are very important as the Italians were quite prominant traders that diffused immense numbers of blades.

Thank you for the input on that motto Fernando....I knew it was older than the popularly applied examples on those dragoon blades but did not know where or how early. The transliterated versions appeared also on French and Italian blades as well during the 18th century, and in the case of the Italian examples probably much earlier due to contact with the Portuguese I would imagine.

[fernando]

Old 4th November 2007, 11:02 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Posts: 5,219

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I am hoping we can focus for example on the 'running wolf' of Passau, which evolved into forms stamped in the blades of Styria, Solingen and eventually in the Hounslow blades and Shotley Bridge blades of German makers in England.

Hi again,
Jim

The running wolf ( Lobo de Passau ) is quoted to be engraved, together with the number 1441 ( one of the various combinations of magic number 7 ) in a XVI century Portuguese Colonial ( crab ) sword, depicted in page 64 of "Homens Espadas e Tomates, a book you also have. It appears that these trade blades were supplied at the time to Portugal and ( if i remember reading ) also Spain.
If needed, some evolution on the magic number seven can be posted.
Fernando

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Old 4th November 2007, 11:09 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D

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Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 491

Hi Jim,

Here is Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons .

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Old 4th November 2007, 11:18 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D

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Posts: 491

Here is Pg 223 of Oakeshott's Archaeology of Weapons !st edition.


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Old 4th November 2007, 11:25 P

Posted by:
Jeff D

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Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 491

How about going back to the ULFBERHT and INGERI swords, or the eastern European/ Caucasian FRINGA blades. Not to mention Assadollah!

You may have opened a can of worms with this thread

All the Best
Jeff

[fernando]

Old 5th November 2007, 12:02 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748


Yay Jeff!!!
Ya always come in like the cavalry!!!!! Those are exactly the images I was looking for, thank you so much!
I agree on the ulfberht and ingeri (they always reminded me of Engleberdt Humperdinck ).....but excellent very early trademarks. I recall the articles from Park Lane Arms Fair journals as well as the material Lee Jones has compiled on these.

Thank you again Fernando for the Passau wolf and again adding the Portuguese associations.....I do indeed have that book but unfortunately not at hand right now.....wish it was believe me!
Please do add material on the '7' ......the numerological material involved in many of the markings is very pertinant. The number three of course comes up often with the religious associations. I know that on many trade blades, some of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas for example, three crosses often appear on the blades.

[fernando]

Old 5th November 2007, 01:13 AM

Posted by;
Michael Blalock

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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: dc
Posts: 253

Here is a cloud with a sword. One is from an English cavalry sword, the other, a Yemeni sword and the coat of arms is for the town of Valka, Latvia. A very small town in Latvia from where my wife's family fled during WWII. This part of Lativa was a German principality for most of the the middle ages.

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Old 5th November 2007, 02:33 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall

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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Posts: 5,748

Beautiful examples Michael! and most intriguing history with the coat of arms shown. It seems I have seen similar arms in Polish heraldry, and that the arm coming from the cloud device was most likely adopted by Solingen makers in the 17th to 18th centuries as can be seen in the talismanic context.

I have seen this marking in books on this topic such as 1000 Makers Marks (Lenciewicz ?) and another whose title escapes me (Jeff I think you have these). I apologize for not having better recollection on these, I do not have access to books presently so must rely on what there is of my memory!!

It is interesting to see the religious allegory associated with these talismanic devices in motif, in this case the arm holding a sabre represents the arm of God and the sword extending from Heaven. We did have some discussion on the appearance of the Virgin Mary on Polish swords along with astral symbols not too long ago, and it seems that the arm in the cloud is shown illustrated in a Russian reference on this topic indicating the use from 17th to 18th century.

The English cavalry blade looks like an early 19th century sabre blade, and the Yemeni blade appears to be a broadsword as seen on kattara in Oman..both with Solingen blades,can you show the full examples?

[fernando]

Old 5th November 2007, 05:49 A

Posted by:
Chris Evans

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Location: Australia
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Hi Folks,

Terrific and extremely informative thread. Keep up the good work all of you.

Cheers
Chris

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[fernando]

Old 5th November 2007, 11:39 AM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde

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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe


I have only one blade, on a firangi, which could be a trade blade. As far as I can read it, it says XX WIDALDBELV XX, I don�t know what it means, but I have noticed that the text is not in the middle of the four �X�s so there may have been more than what can be seen to day. What can be seen is fairly deep, and this �worries� me a bit. The �X�s can be seen at both ends, but some of the letters are missing, without any trace of that they have been there, and this I find strange, it is btw the same on both sides of the blade. Could it be, that blades like this, with a sloppy marking, are not trade blades, although they are supposed to look so, but local made blades? We must not forget, that although several countries did what they could, to fill the market in other countries with trade blades, a lot of the so called trade blades we see to day have been locally made. How do we know which is a trade blade and which is a locally made one?

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[fernando]

Old 5th November 2007, 02:49 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jens,
Excellent point, very often it becomes hard to determine which are the trade blades and which are locally made. In many cases the locally made blades become quite good, and as trade blades were made sometimes rather indiscriminately, the very quality the markings presumed to declare was in fact not present. I think in many instances the manner in which certain markings were applied and the locations on the blade sometimes gave clues. For example, in the Sahara, the dual opposed crescent moons seen on the takouba blades are clearly an imitation of the larger crescent moon on the European talismanic blades. Applied doubly must have been thier idea of somehow strengthening or emphasizing the application.
In another case, the eyelash type markings appear on a blade in the Caucusus ( also on an Indian blade I have seen) rather than singly, applied in linear repitition, in the manner of motif. This multiplied use of what was originally a single trademark suggests the folk interpretation of increasing the quality or power imbued in the blade.

It seems that the X stamps typically enclosed either names, mottos or inscriptions on 17th century European blades, possibly some earlier. I am not certain of the purpose of these x markings but to enclose these inscriptions, and possibly since they often occur in multiple, numerological symbolism may be involved.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 6th November 2007, 01:09 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

The images in Zygmunt Lenkiewicz and Dudley Gyngell's books are the same and as you know attributed to Peter Munich (I will post the images in Gyngell below). Not quite the cloud and sword as on Michael's beautiful blade. I think these images are often mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich but infact date to Solingern from the mid 18th to mid 19th century. The Munich images are much more detailed. The exact images seen on Michael's blade are seen often on British 1788 blades from the Runkel factory. They are less often but not atypically seen on British 1796's, and trade blades to Eastern Europe, Caucasus and Africa (oddly I haven't found any exported to America?). Similar images are copied in these areas, but appear more crude.
The arm with sword protruding from a cloud is thought to represent the sword of God or God's justice. It is seen in herarldry from Poland, Scandinavia, and Ireland to name a few. It has been mentioned that there at least was a Protestant connection. It is interesting to note that often in heraldry and in the blade image the sword is a "scimitar" not the more typically European saber as in Michaels coat of arms?

Hi Jens,
I think you are correct (again!), Just with the examples above you can see the images on the trade blade, local images on imported trade blades and local images on local blades. Possibly commercialism or possibly the images have significance that is independent of its possible trademark status. I will see if i can find any references to the mark on your blade.

All the Best.
Jeff

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[fernando]

Old 6th November 2007, 04:25 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff,
Thank you for posting the reference on the Peter Munich blade markings, and I think you are right in these appearing in kind, much later into the 18th and 19th century and the astral figures do appear often on British officers sabres as you have noted. I have always thought that these figures on these blades in these later times not only had to do with quality symbolism, but likely even more to do with Masonic lore. In those times officers were of course also well established gentry and often nobility, and were of course also often quite active in Freemasonry, where much of this symbolism remained well in place.

Very good point about the trade blades from Solingen, or for that matter Runkle who was situated in England, and their wide distribution. I think that in America these blades did get there in some degree of course via British presence. Best source for examples here would probably be Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution".

Interesting note that you bring up on the sword held by the arm in the cloud being a 'scimitar' as described in heraldry. It seems that these sabres and for that matter the 'Oriental' fashion deeply influenced many European forces in warfare in Eastern Europe against Turkish forces, and in many cases the 'exotic' imagery was adopted in degree. One interesting case is with a few of the Scottish mercenaries who adopted the curved sabre blades in their basket hilts, terming these hybrids 'turcael', if I recall.

With the mention of the Scottish blades, it brings to mind that it seems invariably that the basket hilt blades were German, and presumably mostly from Solingen. Needless to say, that brings us to the Andrea Ferrara myth!!

All the best,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 6th November 2007, 04:46 AM

Posred by:
Jeff D
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada


Thanks for mentioning the Scottish blades as that reminded me about another observation. Often these 'trade marks' are doubled. ie. eyelashes & Ferrara marks, Or as in this Scottish basket hilt stars and moon with the Spanish motto etc.

Jeff
Attached Images

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[fernando]

Old 6th November 2007, 04:54 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Regarding the scimitar in the cloud image. I always wondered if it represented that the Eastern powers were seen as God's punishment, you know, not enough faith and all that...

More things to ponder.
Jeff

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[fernando]

Old 6th November 2007, 03:18 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde

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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Interesting to notice what Jim writes, and it is most likely true. In the start trade blades were no doubt of the same quality as the blades used by the soldier of the trading country, but along the way it is also likely that a lesser quality was exported, so in the end the locally made �trade� blade might have been of quite a higher quality than the ones imported.

The same happened to the Indian ingots in the early centuries, so in the end the Arabic merchants stationed controllers at the west coast of India, to check the ingots before they were exported.

A side remark � there were no doubt a lot of blades imported into India, which did not have any markings, but we will never know how big this import was.

Very good explained Jeff, and good instructive illustrations as well.

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Old 6th November 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent observations Jeff! and especially pleased to see that Scottish basket hilt blade, which is a beauty ! I remember that one! This further emphasizes that these Scottish blades were indeed German imports, as the 'Spanish Motto' blades have now been determined to have been produced in variation and number in Solingen. It seems that early Scottish blades bearing patriotic mottos had inscriptions that were noteably Germanic in spelling, such as 'for Schotland and no union'.

As you have noted the application of these astral markings as well as the motto seem to have been applied somewhat in disassociated manner as far as original or presumed symbolism, suggesting of course that such blades were made to appeal to certain markets or consumers without particular consideration or understanding of the markings. It would seem also that blades could have been decorated specifically at the request of the consumer. In such case, the coupling of markings indeed would have been found on varied blades intended commercially.

The suggestion that Solingen produced special order blades is also seen with the sword bearing arm out of the cloud that we are discussing. In one reference to this particular marking it appears along with a 'sacred heart' marking which is typically regarded as a Catholic associated symbol if I am clear, and in such context with presumed Protestant markings such as the arm in the cloud would again suggest production in a more commercial perspective such as the Solingen blades.
It would require a great deal of theological debate to discuss the possible symbolism of most of these allegorical markings, but the general application seems to support the talismanic concept.

It seems that early writers on arms such as DeCosson proposed that in many cases the application of what are perceived as names of makers may have been descriptive terms for types of swords, with of course Andrea Ferrara at the fore. Another familiar example is that of 'SAHAGUM'. While this of course is known as a place in Spain, and possibly a makers name, it occurs on blades in elusive variation, and often spelled differently. I have seen this term applied to allegedly Toledo produced blades and actually spelled differently on each side of the blade. Again,clearly Solingen production though the blade heralded 'EN TOLEDO' as well.

As you have well said.........lots more pondering!!!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 6th November 2007, 05:30 PM

Posted by;
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
This is a rough translation of the paragraphs concerning the so called magic numbers, referring to the sword i have mentioned before, contained in the book already quoted.
I hope this makes some sense and is usefull to the thread topic. If not, it's you who asked for it
I myself allways doubt the efectiveness of isoteric stuff ( is this how you call it? )

" It became easy to distinguish European examples from Colonials, as the quality of their fabrication and its artistic level were highly superior to those made in the Colonies. Not so easy, however,was to distinguish examples in the Colonies that were made by Portuguese smiths, engaged by the Overseas Arsenals, from simple copies manufactured in Native anvils.
Both versions had imported blades. The wide blades with the mark �Lobo de Passau ( a running wolf ), and with the magic numbers 1414 or 1441, are the oldest examples, which origin is attributed to Portuguese Colonial Arsenals and the realms of Dom Manuel ( 1495-1521 ) untill Dom Sebasti�o ( 1557-1578). It is worthy to mention that the numbers 1414 and 1441 were not the date of production ( under which very often they were classified ) but uniquely the application of a number considered �magic�. The study of numerology, a fashion of the period, attributed to figure �7�, as to its multiples and combinations, a Divine value. While the Arab cried Allah il Allah, the Christian would engrave the number 7 or, more often the 14 ( this being two times 7 ), or 1414 ( this being two times 7 plus another two times 7 ) or 1441 ( being 14 and the palidrome of another 14) on his blade, wishing to express this way his cry for Divine help in all four directions, as from the moment he unsheathed his sword. Number 1414 is also a reference to the Bible; Job, chapter 14, paragrapgh 14: Man dying, will he live again? Every days of my combat i would wait, untill my change arrived (in the Catholic version). Luther, much considered in Germany in the XVI century, has translated the Greek original, offering in simple language,the following interpretation to this Biblic quotation: When a man dyes, he will live again. So i will continue fighting until my moment comes."
All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 7th November 2007, 11:35 AM

Posted by;
Jens Nordlunde
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe


Fernando, thank you for the translation, it is most interesting to hear how they marked their weapons, and the meaning of the marking. I have no doubt that the markings you see on European weapons and on weapons from other countries for a great part had a religious meaning, but it is very seldom you see the meaning explained.

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[fernando]

Old 7th November 2007, 10:11 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
I'd like to join Jens in thanking you for translating Mr. Daehnhardt's beautifully explained discussion on these often seen numbers that occur in variation on so many many blades. It has always amazed me that over the years so many swords that were clearly 17th and 18th century weapons, were described in catalogues as having blades dated 1441, 1414 etc. by writers who certainly should have known better.




The application of numbers associated with talismanic symbolism is of course well known from early times, as numerology has had quite ancient beginnings. It is interesting to note that from the 16th century, hunting swords were often inscribed with calendars of 'saints days' in sectioned circle separated with signs of the zodiac ("Hunting Weapons" H.L.Blackmore). Presumably such devices were employed to promote good hunting, and much the same concept was likely applied with numeric symbols on blades to offer protection and good fortune in dangerous circumstances.

In anthropology it is known that early man used crudely stylized symbolism in his artwork found in caves to promote good outcome in key events such as hunting. It seems amazing that this simplistic superstitious perception from mans darkest prehistoric age developed rudimentally into intricate occult systems still recognized in varying degree and form to this day. During the Dark Ages, though illiteracy and ignorance were prevalent, the crafts maintained these traditions and allegories, and they carried through the Renaissance despite the advent of knowledge and science.

I think one of the key elements in the esoterica behind these various markings and symbols found on weapons was alchemy. It was primarily this psuedo-science, heavily laced with theosophical allegory and arcane symbolism such as numerology and the Cabbala that led to the markings and motifs we are discussing, in my opinion.

In the bladesmiths craft, the secrets he employed in forging of the metal in his weapons were many, especially in the most important aspect, that of tempering the steel. All manner of bizarre concoctions were created in which the blade was quenched and presumably would imbue the steel with the virtues and properties that would be needed in a weapon of strength and protection. In the plethora of ingredients in such mixtures were many of the elements signified and included in allegorical symbolism, and some of these may be among marks or motifs on blades.

While these are simply thoughts I have had as I have continued researching this topic, they seem at least to form some ideas to continue reviewing such possibilities and more examples of the esoterica on blades.

With all best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 13th November 2007, 07:57 AM

Posted by:
kronckew

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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have feathers.

interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword.
it did not want to come live with me tho........

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[fernando]

Old 13th November 2007, 11:29 AM

Posted by:
katana
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword.
it did not want to come live with me tho........ Quote.

]


Hi Kronckew You beat me to it .....I was surprised at the final price....have to agree that its a hunting hanger ...but think it was re-hilted ...the blade shape seems a little unusual for a hunting sword though, and I suspect that the blade has been shortened and the tip re-profiled.

Regards David

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[fernando]

Old 13th November 2007, 12:47 PM

Posted by:
Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA

Thumbs up

Jim, thanks for starting this thread (and bringing it to my attention--I owe you an email!).

Fascinating stuff, gentlemen. I'm going to add this one to the "Classics" thread.

Let's keep this going!

Andrew
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[fernando]

Old 13th November 2007, 01:55 PM

Posted by:
kronckew

Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location:
CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK:

does look very hangerish.

most of the naval officers, while having a proper fancy sword for dress, would actually carry a hanger into battle as shipboard space tended to be a bit tight, they if i recall would sometimes have similar simple grips and guards....

in the u.s. navy they ultimately barred officers from carrying hangers as they were all different & too functional, not gentlemanly. of course, the officers at the sharp end took no notice and continued using them (and/or 'enlisted' cutlass) up till they stopped boarding enemy vessels....the war dept. eventually outlawed swords entirely & made officers turn them in for scrap, but wisdom prevailed and they were reinstated. i carried mine around for 5 years active duty & only got to wear it once in a parade, then once or twice in my active reserve days. the naval officers sword has degenerated into a pretty sliver of non-functional unsharpened polished & etched steel; i'd rather have a hanger.

it'd be interesting to know if this was a 17c. passau sabre captured & converted to a hanger for use by an english naval or infantry officer.
Last edited by kronckew : 13th November 2007 at 02:08 PM.
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[fernando]

Old 13th November 2007, 11:05 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I feel deeply frustrated
I have deliberatily gone back to the Oporto Military Museum, in order to improve the pictures of this situation, but i couldn't manage better than the last time i was there. It is rather dificult to picture determined positions through the glass windows.
This is labelled as an end XVI century German beheading sword, of unusual quality, where the double human half moons face each other, etched three times along the visible side of the blade ... probably also on the other side.
I had sort of convinced the Directing Colonel to open the window for better pictures ( he owed me one ) but he went on a meeting and didn't show up untill i gave up.
I hope this is usefull the way it is.
Fernando


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[fernando]

Old 14th November 2007, 06:53 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for regenerating this thread! and Andrew thank you for the kind words and including the thread in the classics, which is great as I had hoped this would become a standing resource on this important data that we could all use as a reference.

Kronckew, thank you for posting the marking from the hanger you note, and I'm with you in the regrets that you did not acquire it. The running wolf looks to be a 17th century mark and quite likely would have appeared on hanger blades. However, the mark may be from German swordsmiths who were emplaced in England at Hounslow in mid 17th century, as well as later in the century at Shotley Bridge. In both cases there were hangers produced, and as you have noted, became popular in maritime use. These short, heavy blade swords were key for action in the tight quarters aboard ships, and were often included among arms favored by pirates as well as the officers of commercial ships they preyed upon. I have seen the running wolf mark on these English hangers, though it appeared without makers marks and was likely used by some of the German swordsmiths independantly as a general quality symbol. Some of these seem to have been inlaid brass.

As Katana has suggested, it would seem likely that a hanger might have been reworked or remounted during working life, especially among private weapons.

Fernando, thank you for your excellent post and for the extra effort at showing the marks and the sword which really is interesting. I had often wondered about the crescent moon markings use on German blades, and this shows that they did occur paired, which I once thought appeared only on the Saharan blades. While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade?

All best regards and appreciation,
Jim

,

[fernando]

Old 14th November 2007, 10:54 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade? Quote.


No Jim, the only marks are the crescent (and decrescent ) moons. Three pairs of them, at least on the showing side.
Just a little note. This sword is labelled as German by the Museum, but this is not necessarily a fact. I once showed a full set of pictures to Philip Tom and he sugested it could be Hungarian, quicker than German. This just in case someone finds its quoted origin passive of doubt.
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[fernando]

Old 15th November 2007, 12:29 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Thanks for clarifying, now that I look at it again you pointed that out in the picture you posted but I missed it. It is interesting to see these markings issued in pairs and spaced combination in this way. Again, this would suggest markings that are so placed in a type of motif rather than the talismanic combinations that appeared on many European sword blades, especially often seen on hunting hangers as described previously.
It seems I recall a discussion involving 'executioners' swords or 'heading' swords and Philip noted the Hungarian examples. With his knowledge of Eastern European swords I am inclined to agree that this is probably as he suggests. The hanger type hilt also seems to correspond more with the East European suggestion, rather than German. Hungarian produced blades also used the esoteric symbols in variation much as seen on the Solingen blades.

I have often wondered what was key to the Saharan swordsmiths choosing the paired crescent moons such as these to place on takouba blades, and in some instances on kaskara blades to the east. It seems that these paired marks (termed 'dukari' as claimed by Briggs) they occur consistantly and become increasingly stylized to near unrecognizable form, but positioned in the same manner.

While the markings imitated by native makers suggested certain powers to be imbued in the blade as perceived from the emphasis of these on the imported European blades, it is interesting to consider the meanings of the markings as they diffuse cross culturally. What began as occult allegorical symbolism on the blades in Europe, evolved into associated quality marks by certain makers, then into folk magic and power imbuing talismanic symbolism in native perception.

This is the thought that brought me to wanting to pursue these markings more deeply, and I hope we can find more examples while we continue to consider those you and the others have shown.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 16th November 2007, 03:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

On some trade blades I have seen there appears an apparantly stamped grouping of three crosses of the 'maltese cross' shape. The most readliy recalled example I have seen occurred on the blade of one of 'Zanzibar' form of 'nimchas' (these with a crossguard ring can be seen in the 1933 publication of the Buttin collection). This example was from a grouping of these sa'if's that apparantly came from Zanzibar and were located in number in Yemen some time ago.

This representation of the triple crosses clearly suggests similar markings from European blades that of course carry the Christian religious symbolism of the Holy Trinity that often occurred in various application in makers marks and talismanic motif. However, as we have discussed, the numeric three has a very wide application in not only the symbolism in most other religions, but in esoteric and occult symbolism and allegory.

A number of years ago while visiting an alchemical museum at a castle in Heidelburg, Germany I noticed that among an apothecaries cabinet's drawers was one that supposedly had housed a chemical compound considered a poison. On the drawer were the same triple maltese crosses, that I was told symbolized death. I found that interesting and recalling the triple crosses seen on the Zanzibar blade, and have often wondered if that application might have had any connection with occult symbolism on blades.

We do know that alchemical allegory was employed in talismanic motif on European blades, and that such symbolism likely influenced blacksmiths and swordsmiths well aware of alchemical esoterica. The maltese cross occurs as a component of symbols of numerous elements and chemicals in alchemical charts.
Could there be a connection with the maltese cross symbol from alchemy, applied in three as on the apothecary poison warning, to markings used by makers on blades? Obviously the native copies found in Zanzibar were applied in imitation of European markings much as the dukari on takoubas without awareness of such meaning, or could the meaning have been known?

I'd like to hear what others think on this, and would like to know if anyone else has seen triple cross markings on blades whether European or native. Also, if anyone has the valuable Wallace collection book (a 2 volume set) which is profusely illustrated with European makers stamps and markings, perhaps any reference to same from that source.

Thanks very much !

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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2007, 02:14 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

While apparantly no takers on the three cross markings query, I still have nothing more to add except that ,getting technical on thier form, I guess they are termed 'cross pattee' rather than Maltese as I termed them in description.
I am hoping someone out there has seen such markings on blades, whether European or on the sa'if blades I have described.....Oriental Arms???? can you help?
Meanwhile, there must be other markings seen on either trade blades or European blades that the readership has questions on. It seems that over the years this has come up often, which is the purpose of this thread..to provide a resource we can turn to for reference. The books that often contain these markings seen on trade blades and were copied by native smiths are hard to find and when they are found, very expensive. If we can share the information, we can all benefit.
I'm very grateful for those who have participated so far, and would be grateful if others will join also.
Thanks very much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2007, 10:14 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I first hesitated before posting this, as a trade mark.
It represents a version not yet included here as, being a motto, is a sentimental one, and not an honourable one, as already discussed in this thread.
But having seen this motto in two different specimens, in two distinct places, from rather diverse provenances, i presume this is after all a mark thas has been applied to swords from the trading circuits.
The motto is NO AL AMOR QUE NO CAVSE TROMENTO / SI NO ES FIRME CON ESTA ME LO PAGARAS = No to love that doesn�t bring torment / If it is not firm, you will pay me with this one.
I have it myself in a XVII-XVIII century rapier blade, mounted in a stick sword, possibly set up in the XIX century.
The other example is found in a beautyfull silver hilted cup guard sword, presently at the Oporto Military Museum, labeled mid XVIII century.
I ask you a thousand pardons if this situation doesn't fall within this thread theme.

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[fernando]

Old 20th November 2007, 12:09 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent Fernando!!!!
These inscriptions do indeed fall into the topic of this thread, and thank you so much for continuing to contribute here as the material you are sharing is not often seen in the standard references.
The inscriptions on blades, while not necessarily trademarks, are often found on blades that end up mounted in ethnographic weapons. The 'Spanish motto' (Draw me not without reason etc.) is one that appears widely, and as you pointed out earlier in the thread, is definitely earlier than the 18th century as I had originally thought. I would like to address that motto later in the thread. This appears on the 'Spanish' blades now known to have been produced in Solingen, and are found throughout the Spanish colonies.

Another key example is of course 'Andrea Ferara'......it is typically held that there was indeed such a maker, allegedly in Belluno. But is this appellation actually a name....or a term? such as Andrew (=true), ferara (=iron). It is interesting to note an instance of a Spanish rapier that carried the inscription four times over the blade.....perhaps to multiply the potency?

It seems that these interesting phrases/mottos do occur in duplication, but some such as this only in limited number. It seems to imply the same maker or shop, but may simply be copied by another. I know that often German makers had workers limited in literary skills and inscriptions, which accounts for the often unusual and transliterated versions of spellings and wording.

Thank you again Fernando! Your help and interest is very much appreciated and we will continue to investigate more on these and many other marks, inscriptions and any anomalies that seem consistant on trade blades.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:13 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Amazing how far down the thread moved in one day!!!
Although it seems there is apparantly not much interest in markings and inscriptions on trade blades, despite the fact that as I have mentioned the questions do come up from time to time, but there is perspective I would add to perhaps attract the attention of readers and members.
While most of the emphasis, especially lately on threads here,has been on SEA weapons, Indonesian and Filipino, it may be prove interesting to note that European blades do show up on numbers of weapons in these spheres. I have seen a weapon, I believe classified as a lombok, mounted with an 18th century German, possibly Dutch blade. It seems that piso podang are sometimes ? mounted with European trade blades though I think many are Indian, Persian or Caucasian.
The fact that the Sinhalese kastane is often mounted with European hanger blades, it seems almost exclusively is most interesting, since much of the high grade steel used in India was forged there and exported. The most interesting of the kastane blades are the examples found with Dutch East India Company markings (Mikey....back!! back! I say...no shaver kool here!!!

Perhaps any of the readers or collectors specializing in SEA or Indonesia, Philippines might share observations on trade blades they have seen...share examples?

Rick, have Moro weapons ever been seen with European blades? I have seen discussions of talismanic markings on some of these, any with possible associations to European markings?

I really think the subject matter here is worthwhile, and will prove most interesting and helpful if developed with the participation of those in the spectrum of fields of study well presented in our forum.

I will add a note to my previous discussion on the three cross markings, as my research continues, and I will continue to share my findings. In the Wallace Collection, there is a German 'executioners sword' c.1500 which is engraved with three crosses. It seems to me that this three cross mark has appeared on other examples of these grim weapons elsewhere as well. Obviously the religious connotation prevails here, and the suggestion has to do with the salvation of the criminal ? or along that line.

Any thoughts or ideas? Still looking for other instances of triple cross markings as seen on Zanzibar sa'if's.....anybody seen them on any other blades?


All best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:12 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:35 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

This is taken from Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie 1885 ed. Pg 18

18-32 were located in the Dresden Museum. 32 was attributed to Johannes Wundes

Jeff


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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More Wolves from Cronau...
2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal
3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel
4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection
6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490
7. A Dresden sword c. 1559
8.-15. more developed wolf figures
16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit'


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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Now, that's really something, Jeff
Fernando

,

[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe


Very good Jeff, thank you very much.
Jens

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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens!

Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau?

The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade!

I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c.

Jeff,
Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base.

Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations!

All very best wishes,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada


Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim.

Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given.
I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands .

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2007, 12:54 AM

Posted by:
Don F.
Member

Join Date: Nov 2007

Greetings everyone, I found these swords that may fit into this forum nicely.
I can�t give you any intellectual insights on any of these swords, but what I can give is, some pictures worth a thousand words each. Hope these will help in a small way, in your endeavors to understand early makers marks.

The first sword may be a German export to Turkey; or not.

The second one is an Arab Shamshir with either a locally made blade, or an import, or a battlefield pickup. Don�t know for sure. I know you will probably like this one. It has your running wolf mark.

The last one is an English Mortuary sword with blade manufactured in Solingen. Lets run these babies up the flagpole and see if any body salutes.

Ya, I know, I can�t believe I said that�

Best regards everyone.
Don F
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification?
What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin.

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2007, 07:30 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jeff, may i come in ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification?
What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin.

Jeff (Quote).


Latin, no doubt!
I guess it has no other conotation than that of its direct meaning. It appears in other than swords, even churches. Altough its correct use would be "somebody made me", it apparently appears with the wrong sequence, like "me fecit Solingen", potentialy meaning "made in Solingen" ... or "Solingen made me"
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 12:57 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
^Hi Jeff, may i come in ?



Latin, no doubt!
I guess it has no other conotation than that of its direct meaning. It appears in other than swords, even churches. Altough its correct use would be "somebody made me", it apparently appears with the wrong sequence, like "me fecit Solingen", potentialy meaning "made in Solingen" ... or "Solingen made me"
Fernando (Quote)


Thanks Fernando, I guess 'sometimes a cigar is just a cigar'. I think I spent too much time in musty old books this week .

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Jeff, good call on the ME FECIT SOLINGEN inscription, which typically was with a makers name, presumably at least. It seems that the catalogued items in the Wallace Collection carry a number of examples of this combination, the ones I found mostly 17th century rapiers. I think what is most interesting about these presumed Latin inscriptions is that the spellings, wording and syntax are typically somewhat inconsistant. Also the weapons carrying these blades in the period suggested are actually Italian, and while there are the discussed inscriptions such as one c.1650:
PAVLLV WILLEMS ME FECIT SOLINGEN
there are two others, both Italian rapiers with suggested Spanish blades:
G.N.A.C.I.O.F.R.Z. IHN TOLEDO (c.1670)
and IN.TOLEDO (c.1610)

Having considered that Italy had primarily its own blade making centers, it seems interesting that these rapiers, all Italian, were mounted with what quite possibly were all German blades. Yet another Italian rapier c.1625, was mounted with a blade inscribed :
FRIEDRICH MVNICH

Conversely, a French, possibly Dutch 'pillow sword' had a blade inscribed:
IN.VIENNA.MEI.FECIT
Another: IHN.SOLLINGN

Another with the a version of the famed name:
ANDREA ME FECIT Italian c.1600

It would seem that even during these early times, the remarkable commercialization of German blades reveal many adaptions in the inscriptions placed on them. The variations of suggested places of manufacture were meant to appeal to apparantly clientele in a number of countries, and it seems the inscriptions are placed somewhat accordingly. The marketing acumen of this German industry seems amazing!

I think the most interesting factor with these inscriptions is not only the varying combinations, but what seems to me to be transliteration and unusual spellings, especially with intermingled Latin. If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto'
NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically, at least this was once suggested as I tried to learn more on the phrases. As you have noted, the sequence or syntax as with the ME FECIT wording may be off.

Jeff, although using 'Occams cigar' as you noted often reveals nothing especially unusual....its always possible there is more to it than means the eye!! ....and you can NEVER spend too much time in musty old books!!!!but keep the cigar outa there!!!

All the very best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 12:54 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto'
NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically ... Jim (Quote)


Unless a cigar is not just a cigar, i would say, in my empirical view, this phrase is well built and completely Spanish ... Castillian, to be precise.

But as you very well know, they used it all over, as also Portuguese sword makers; sometimes well spelt, sometimes not.

All the best
Fernando
.

[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 02:13 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

"Three in one"
Speaking of multi marks, and orbes+crosses mentioned by Jeff.
In this Portuguese specimen, we can find mottos, symbols and marks ... all for the price of one
These "Sail" guard swords come right after the cup hilt examples depicted in "Armas e os Bar�es", by Eduardo Nobre.
Maybe (some of) these are not trade marks, but maybe they still can fit in
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 04:23 PM

Posted by:
Marc
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Madrid / Barcelona

I agree, 100% Spanish, Catillian, as Fernando says. The actual (by actual I mean modern) spelling would be :

"No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor".

From here, all the variations and ortographical creativity that you may imagine

.

[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 04:40 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

I won't quote George Carlin's version of 'Occam's Cigar', suffice to say sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar . To further your obsrvation's I believe in past discussions E.B. Erickson has noted that most Hounslow hangers had imported ME FECIT SOLINGEN blades.

Hi Marc and Fernando,

Thanks for the clarification on the motto. I recently met someone of Scottish ancestry whose family motto was " NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON". He was very impressed when I showed him photo's of my baskethilt with the motto on it. He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile .

All the Best
Jeff
.

[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM

Posted by.
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote)


Small world

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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

There are several on Danish military white weapons from 1600 to about 1750, from then on they seem to be more royal markings.

.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 03:04 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Fernando,
Thank you for posting this terrific 'sail' hilt and for again the great detail on the markings! I appreciate the data on the orb and cross and the cross of the Order of Aviz. I think it is interesting how the cross and orb and other forms of cross are often used at the beginning or terminus of fullers or to open and close inscriptions, almost like 'talismanic punctuation' !

Marc, its really good to see you here! I was hoping you might join in as your input here would really help with what we are trying to put together. I also appreciate you and Fernando confirming that the 'motto' is indeed in Spanish. Is the Castillian really much different than other dialects, and of course I understand that Portuguese has considerable differences.

Jeff, JUDL! good runnin' with Carlin's cigar axiom!!!
The Hounslow swords from England were indeed often marked with the ME FECIT SOLINGEN line typically along with the makers name, most notable Iohannes Hoppe. Some only carried the running wolf, and some of these instances carried into the later German enterprise at Shotley Bridge, but I dont think those used the ME FECIT. Eljay's knowledge on the 17th and 18th century European swords is outstanding to say the least!

Jens,
Thank you so much for adding the note on the Danish swords. Are the markings seen on these 17th to 18th century swords indicative of Solingen make similar to these ? There is so little discussed on the Danish weapons but they certainly must have used the German blades also. I wonder how many of these blades ended up in India with the trade factories established by Denmark there.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 05:04 AM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
A great reference book

Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!!
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 11:46 AM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hi Jim,

In Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S. Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. Resume in German at the back of the book.

Around 1600. In the fuller inlaid with copper ME FECIT SOLINGEN

Around 1610. CLEMENS MEIGENN inlaid with copper.

Around 1680. In each of the four fullers IHESUS inlaid with copper.

Around 1700. Crescent and three stars on both sides.

Around 1700. On both sides sun, crescent, stars and an arm with a sword.

Around 1708. XX IN X MINI XX on both sides, in the fuller.

On many of them you can see the king�s monogram and a crown as well.
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! (Quote)

But of course, Gavin!
How was i so blind
Although the work comprehends a study on Plug bayonets and their so called cuttlers, i guess most marking material is just the same, as also such makers come to be the same who made sword blades.
As you say, there are zillions of marks on the ilustrated examples. It would be nice if you volunteer to scan some of them, specially those that appear to be common to the sword theme ... you were the one that came up first with the idea
You have for instance a symbol that appears to be popular around, as it is shown in Italian and British examples: the anchor ... yes Jim, that's the name ( at least ) used by Evans.
This is to coincide with the mark applied to a piece i was about to post here, after checking its viability with Jim. This because the piece is a sword stick, not so much apreciated by some, but with an interesting blade, which i will first let Jim to make his expertized coments about. If some further detail needed, i will secondarize with the respective info ... if i can
This will confirm that the anchor symbol was assigned to several Masters as, besides Italian and British, it also appears in Portuguese blades ... or Spanish ... or both. Jim has comented that this symbol doesn't appear on the famous Tomas Ayala blades. In this case, the nice example i saw yesterday being discussed in a determined Forum ( i think i lost it ) was a fake ... which is quite frequent, although in this case the blade was very well forged, i would say worthy of a master.
All the best.
Fernando
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to.
He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book.

Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!!

Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though.

Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ?

I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers.

Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark.

Thank you so much guys for these latest entries!

All best regards,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:40 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


We were warned by Dr. Lee Jones that, due to the recent spam measures, new member first postings would spend a couple days in quarantine, before they get visible in the respective thread.
However it didn't occur (to me) that they keep their position in the posting sequence relative to the date they were emited. This is then why posting #44 has appeared today, but dated and positioned as from two days ago.
Greetings to new member Don F., and thanks for the examples he has posted to enrich this theme. I am sure Jim will have a say at such pieces interest.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Don F.
Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry.

The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades.

The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades.

The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term.
These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!!

Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies.

All very best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, .
Perfect, isn't it?
( I hope i am not exagerating )
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 PM

Posted by:
S.Al-Anizi
Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Arabia

Thanks Jim and all other guys for this rich thread, definetly deserves being a sticky.

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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 09:41 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for posting the 'anchor' this is the symbol I was alluding to before and it reminded me that it was on LEW's kaskara (not nimcha). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sudan+german

In the process of trying to find LEW's kaskara I found Jim's four crosses thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=nimcha+german
I will see what I can find on them now that I know what to look for.

Thanks and welcome Don F. That mort is exactly what i was talking about with Hounslow hilts with German blades.

Good Stuff
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 10:22 PM

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding responses guys, and now we are rollin' !!!
Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links.
S.Al Anizi, thank you so much for the kind words and acknowledging the thread, which is developing just as I had hoped to prove a valuable resource for us all.

I hope everyone is noting and reviewing the thread as we go as when a thread becomes multipaged it is often easy to miss important posts, just as I did with Don's significant contribution.

Jeff, thank you for finding the crosses! The three crosses I saw were linear, and as noted on one of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas. These crosses 'pattee' are in an interesting configuration, and seem in a cross pattern itself. We do know that the four cardinal directions were key in folk religion, and again, we wonder if the duplicity here is intended to compound the potential talismanic potency.

Thank you guys!
All best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 10:37 PM

Posrted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More on the Orb and Cross. This is from Gyngell's Armourers Marks Pg30

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 10:47 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links ...
Jim (Quote)


A great anchor allright, and Jeff has just found out where i got it from .
I have completely forgotten i picked it from this very Forum, it is on Lew's kaskara. I must have saved the picture when i was searching on the anchor symbol, as familiar to the one struck on the sword cane of my posting #58. But you will see this "robbery" was well intentioned. We say over here that you catch a liar faster than you catch a cripple .
Sorry Lew, for the hijacking. But it's all because it's a great anchor.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 28th November 2007, 08:32 AM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007


I will help regarding this book but I am afraid it will have to wait until the silly season has passed. I will see if I can dig up Mr Evan's email address and perhaps he will have something on file he can share with us all rather than all the scans. I do remember my last correspondence was a few years ago just after he sold his collection in preparation of putting together another book on miniature swords if I remember correctly.

All for now.....a great read so far guys keep is coming...I also want to add there is a running wolf found in a few places on a blade made by Johannis Brach for King George II, it appears in between his first and last name on both sides of the blade in the fullers, there are several other marks being a cross struck 3 times with a letter "S" and unicorn struck twice too. The rest of the blade is etched with a calendar.

Those of you in England may well have seen this sword on display in the tower of London collection....

Regards

Gavin
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[fernando]

Old 28th November 2007, 06:51 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thanks again for the additional cross and orbs. I'd like to work some more on these, and it seems that in Wagner, he notes these were used to enclose names, inscriptions etc. by being placed at beginning and end. Perhaps the 'four crosses' were used in the same manner on the nimcha posted.

Fernando, thank you for your gentlemanly concern on what might have been considered infringement, but I think not the case. well handled and I hope we can work more on these 'anchors' which clearly were used considerably on Spanish blades and German made blades purported to be. I am wondering if these appeared on other blades, English, Italian?

Gavin, the sword you mention by Johannes Brach, was Brach one of the Hounslow smiths or was he actually working in Solingen? I am of course very interested in the three crosses and 'S' markings. The calendar would seem to imply this might have been a hunting sword ? as auspicious days (Saints days) were important to observe in hunting etc. at least this is as described in Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons").
I see you also had communications with Mr. Evans as I mentioned I had earlier and I also wonder how he is doing with the miniature weapons, which he was intrigued with when I last heard from himsome years ago. I have sent him an email (which I hope is still correct) and am hoping for his response.

I am wondering if we might start to examine the well known 'sickle' or 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoa, later Styria, Solingen and the Caucasian 'Gurda' blades. Any thoughts on what this paired, toothed or ribbed half circles mark might represent? each of the semi-circles is terminated with three dots typically, the Trinity? the numeric three seems extremely important and consistantly employed in various markings and repitition of them.

On another thread, David has posted a well weathered 'firangi' which he has obtained, which is remarkable in that it is still in original mountings and holds a rapier blade. This is an important item as it illustrates how the markings on these early blades, even rapier blades, are often key in researching many forms of ethnographic weapons.

With all best regards, and thanks for these contribitions guys!
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 28th November 2007, 08:53 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007



Hi Jeff,

The paragraph in the "Treasues of the Tower of London", page 51, reads..

A number of old swordsmiths named Johannis Brach are recorded in Solingen at different times. Two other signatures, that of Jan and Arnoldt, are recorded with the unicorn walking along.

As for a hunting sword...maybe, maybe not, it has been shortened at some time in it's life and remains at healthy 41.2" with a blade length of 35.2". It appears though, that he may have used this in his charge at Oudenarde in 1708.
The blade is dated to approx 1700. There is further reference made regarding literature; Duffy & Borg, European swords and daggers in the Tower of London, p33, pl.92a.(IX1243).

Hope this helps some

Also on page 79 of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham's Illustrated catalog of civil war military goods there is a great page of 6 images of Solingen and Damascus unfitted blades that where available to soldiers during the war.

regards

Gavin
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[fernando]

Old 28th November 2007, 09:17 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
This is something for you to digest and figure out.
It seems as the anchor symbol appears both as a mark and as a decoration. We can see in Evans work that the anchor was assigned to British cuttler (?) William Justice in 1664, but he also pretends that this symbol, struck in Italian blades, also shown in the book, was merely a decoration. Needless to say we are navigating in strange waters, as his business is bayonets and the makers he quotes are cuttlers ... whatever that means, for the case.
I am posting pictures of an anchor punction on a Tomas Aiala ( not Ayala) sword, which i mentioned the other day, as well as the pages referring Evans material on both anchor mark and decoration.
All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
I too think it might just be decoration, here are a few images of a gorgeous blade I saw a few years ago, Spanish, the style was the 1728 cavalry sword pattern but of the highest quality I have ever seen. If you look close at the first image you will see it is not symetrical, there is a cirle on one side of the base of the anchor and a cresent the other, anchor aside, does this represent day and night?

Great work Fernando.

regards

Gavin
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[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 12:55 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Gavin, thank you so much for answering my question on the sword cutler Brach, and for posting that remarkable sword...nicely referenced! and it is interesting to know about the Solingen marks in the Civil War book. It is interesting that most of the first issue of the M1840 "Wristbreaker" were produced in Solingen before Ames picked up the contract.
On the King George sword, it would seem the blade is a bit long for a hunting sword, but the auspicious significance extended to warfare as well in the astrological sense.

Excellent deduction on noting the presence of crescent moon and sun on either side of this fascinating decoration or marking. The symbolism of these two figures is of course present in many variations on European blades, and the talismanic implication seems quite plausible though can only be speculated upon. While decoration can easily be assumed to be intended only aesthetically, I feel that the ever present superstition, even though only accepted nominally, still had a great degree of serious consideration. Even in present times, soldiers will apply great attention to good luck charms and many forms of talismanically intended measures.

Fernando, you continually amaze me with the beautifully done graphics you post and the way you highlight key passages and key in on markings!! Thank you for always adding such great presentation. The material in Evans book tells me I desperately need to get hold of my copy!!! Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. It seems there was some clarity issues on the use of these 'anchors' by makers in quite different centers as well. There was such intense competition between all of these blade centers, trying to define exactly who used which marks is going to be very difficult, but I think we have a running start!

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 02:21 AM

Posted by:
Alan62
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Jim
I am amazed by this thread and thank you and the many knowledgable contributors for it.
I do not mean to intrude ,but with such a wealth of knowledgable folks regarding marks,I wondered if perhaps the mystery on this one could be solved as I have searched far and wide
You might remember it
Again
Thank You and the others for such a great thread and the information made available throughout this entire site

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[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 02:34 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Alan,
Thank you so much for the very kind words and posting your sword blade with the interesting marks. This is exactly the kind of response and participation I had hoped for with this thread, where all of us can share information, display examples and develop what I am convinced will become a valuable resource that will be available to all of us.

I am hoping that those with access to the reference compendiums on markings might be able to locate this marking. I would suggest, without access to references, that the marking represents a bird in flight. This symbol is known to have been used in variation with certain religious connotation, which of course is as we have discussed, often the basis for many of these markings and phrases. With that said, I am hoping others might either note instances where this marking has appeared, or locate the mark associated with particular maker in the references.

The diagonally striated panel at the forte is very familiar and while I cannot place the decoration at the moment, I do suspect it was an 18th century affectation.

Would it be possible to see the entire sword?, as this is important as well to identify the region and period in which it was mounted.

Thank you so much Alan!

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 05:30 PM

Posted by:
Alan62
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hi Jim and Thank you again
I will post a pic of the entire sword It is one that you and I discussed about a year ago
I also hope that perhaps someone will recognize and Id the diagonal pattern
Thanks Again

.

[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 07:01 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Alan,
Two beautiful sabres!!! Thank you for showing them in full.
I honestly cannot recall the details of previous discussion on the sabre at the top that we are discussing though it does seem familiar. This sword type is basically the English officers backsword/straight sabre known as the 'spadroon'. These were popular from about 1780 until roughly 1820, and are typically characterized by the five beads or balls on the crossguard and knucklebow. While it seems that the style originated in England, it apparantly was loosely adopted in France and in America during the Federal period.

The hilt on yours is quite atypical of those seen on the English spadroons, and the crosshatching on the grip seems to reflect either Polish or French influence. The karabela form pommel portion of the grip suggests the beloved Polish sabres, and Eastern European cavalry fashions profoundly were influencing Continental and English military at the end of the 18th century.

The interesting decorated square panel at the forte also seems to appear on a number of French sword blades of the late 18th century, as well as seen on Polish blades of much earlier. I still have not located the diagonally striated square panel as appears on yours, but seems to correspond stylistically to those I have mentioned.

It would seem your straight sabre/spadroon might well be an English officers of about 1780-90, as these officers were often highly motivated by Continental military fashion. This is of course well illustrated by the styles and weaponry adopted particularly in cavalry regiments in the latter 18th century.

While the identification doesnt really help much with the marking, I just wanted the sword type and period defined to hopefully put more direction to possibilities on the marking.

C'mon guys...we need the markings books!!!

All the best,
Jim

The second sabre is a Napoleonic period yeomanry officers sabre, again, with the ivory grips reflecting the influence of many Polish cavalry sabres.
.

[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 07:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on.
Jim (Quote)


No, i wasn't correcting you at all ... on the contrary
That was precisely to remind that, the name of Ayala spelt that way, is a sign that the piece, despite its apparent quality, was not his procuction.
Not that the anchor doesn't appear in Spanish swords. I was browsing the Net on Master Ayala and found a very interesting site,
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp
from where i brought the attached illustration, where we can see a brass sail hilt Dragoon sword, made in Barcelona by Magi Closas ( 1760-1780 ). The article author fully characterizes the marks ... the allusion to the King and to the Regiment, Closas punction, as well as the arrow, the symbol of Barcelona dagger smiths Guild since the 17th century, but it pays no attention to the anchor, as if this were a secondary detail, like a decoration. It is yet to be known whether this is an esoteric symbol, a religious one, or just a decoration hybrid.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 29th November 2007, 08:11 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

It is my guess it is a religious one from all that I have read since this posting was started. I have few more links to get through and then I shall show several different styles of anchors and crosses that we have all seen and will attach the acompanying texts to further support this.
I have also attached below an excavated rapier with the running wolf symbol and DOMINI that has been covered so far in the discussion. It came out of the Danube many years ago.

regards

Gav
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[fernando]

Old 30th November 2007, 02:10 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Ahah! Fernando..........that makes sense, the misspelling suggests the work of somebody else...i.e. Solingen! I read somewhere also that some of these crafty German workers even produced some less than standard pieces and deliberately placed spurious famed Spanish names on them to discredit the product. That claim seems dubious though, as I have not yet seen any substandard blades from either of these competing markets and frankly by the end of the 16th century, Toledo was little competition as its sword production had diminished dramatically.

Interesting on the arrow of the Barcelona smiths guild. I always wonder how a particular symbol was selected as the mark for each guild or maker. I tried to use that link but didnt find the Closas reference. It is indeed interesting that the anchor is not considered worthy of note.

I think that to determine more on the imbued meaning associated with these particular items of motif, we need to discover consistancies that occur with certain makers blades. Since these characteristically have differences from subtle to pronounced, we can presume symbolism is present, and since religious symbolism is known to often include talismanic esoterica in these times, the meanings can only be imagined. To the uninitiated, these would represent only flourished motif, but to the client who carried the sword with his life in the balance, the deep symbolism was likely pronounced.
I think the anchors, cross and orb were intended to talismanically punctuate and emphasize the marks, names or inscriptions they appear with.

Thank you very much Fernando, excellent post as always!


In the exotic places that those who carried these weapons went with trade and often campaign, the native people became well aware of the deep pride and confidence with which they were regarded. Naturally they presumed that the blades of these weapons would give them equal power in thiers.

What is most interesting is how the commonly reproduced markings on native blades were chosen above others. There were so many markings on many European blades, yet there is such a select group chosen; the sickle marks, the moons, Andrea Ferara, et al. In most cases the blades found with many unusual markings are the European produced blades.

Gav, there you go! Nice photos and very nice rapier. You guys are really putting in terrific examples here! I am really looking forward to the anchors and crosses you describe and as noted, this will help us find some recurrent forms hopefully.
Thank you again for posting this and for helping us with compiling this thread.

With all very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 30th November 2007, 03:18 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Hi Jim,
Here is the article on the sail guard swords with Closas marks.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/47-Bconvela-2.pdf

And here is one ( of so many) Ayala reference, included in a list of personalities and factories related with white arms ... not only Spanish.


http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/61-Apendice_bibliografia.pdf

I hope these are usefull.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 30th November 2007, 03:41 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Gavin,
Nice excavated rapier
Say, what would be the word before DOMINI ?
If we consider the proportional space available, the phrase could be ANNO DOMINI, which is a popular Latin word "duet", but not much sensefull as a sentence for a sword ... i don't know. Just a bit of fantasy .
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 30th November 2007, 05:02 PM
Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004


Hi Jim,
While Freebooter consolidates the religious basis of the anchor symbol, may i advance a couple scans of Evans book, with references to some usually seen markings, which he presumes to be of cabalistic contents. Eventually the symbol "IN MENE", apparently so usually seen in the XVII-XVIII centuries, is conotated by Portuguese Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BAR�ES, struck on sword of page 47, as a symbol of fear of God.
BTW, if you browse the Net on the subject, these letters are relative to Hebrew mystic symbology.
On the other hand, Juan L. Calvo, the author of the link in posts #78 and #81( Closas, Ayalla, etc ) is of the opinnion that these are marks of a determined unknown factory, which is naturaly wrong.

MENE o MINI: La inscripci�n �IN MENE� o �IN MINI� figura inscrita en hojas de espada forjadas durante el siglo XVIII, tal vez se�alando su producci�n en una determinada �f�brica� que no he conseguido identificar.

All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 1st December 2007, 05:13 PM~

Posed by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean .
I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger.
However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard.
Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation?
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 1st December 2007, 07:13 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent subject Fernando, and I think its good we examine that perspective here. It does seem quite probable that the application of interpretations of known marks, numbers and inscriptions would occur in instances of put together pieces or native copies etc. Naturally we know this is often the case on blades copied in Africa, India etc. and that is much of the purpose of this thread.
As you have noted, perhaps we can attempt to read too much into some of the markings or supposed symbolism, and pieces that are obviously composite leave us wondering. Perhaps the piece was assembled in period from elements available, and often individuals became thier own blacksmiths when none were available to furbish weapons, or could not afford such work. We of course realize that in such cases, there was often not a great deal of literacy in the ranks, so supersition and imitation of fabled marks or wording may have been factors in applying such motif or decoration.

Naturally I have seen many cases where what seemed an intriguing mark and was hoped to reveal the work of a certain maker or mysterious symbol turned out to be simply a proof mark or an arsenal or inventory number. While we regard the weapons often with anxious hope for historical significance of times long ago, it must be remembered that at the time, these weapons were pretty much just business, and such markings were procedural. It is the symbolic history behind many of the markings that is fascinating, and the inscriptions applied faithfully for the clients who commissioned these weapons often reveal compelling historical possibilities.

One such case is of course the mystery of Andrea Ferara. While Victorian romanticism led to many tales of this fabled Italian swordsmith having worked in Spain and even in Scotland, there is little evidence of such. In fact there is even precious little evidence of such a prolific maker in Italy, though it is noted he worked in Belluno and had a brother working as well. Eventually some of the early arms writers considered that the 'name' was actually most likely a phrase 'Andrea' (Andrew= loosely, true) 'Ferrara' (= iron, steel) and a quality warranty. On German blades, the 'Eisenhauer' often mistaken to be a maker, simply meant in German ( Eisen= iron, hauer =cutter), i.e.strong enough to cut iron. The monumental appearance of the Ferara name/phrase over continents and centuries on countless blades precludes the work of any mere mortal.

The interesting use of numerics in the gemetria application comprised within Cabalistic esoterica leads to most intriguing interpretation. It always has amazed me how many 'responsibly documented' catalogs have declared swords 'made in 1441 or 1414'! On the rapier shown by Freebooter the 'Domini' however does correspond to Anno Domini, which typically was followed by a year. I have often wondered if application of the year was for the rather mundane purpose of inventory or production numbers I have mentioned concerning commercial matters.

Aside from this, I do believe there was considerable religious as well as superstitious consideration involved in many of the marks and inscriptions, such as the 'anchor' and of course the numbers you have noted. The Hebrew connotation in the phrase you note of course would suggest the Cabalistic potential for its origin.

Returning to the arrow used as a mark in Barcelona as shown on the Closa weapon you posted earlier, it seems that the 'broad arrow' was also used in England as a mark for 'the Kings property' and was used in all manner of application.

Please forgive my 'dissertation' but as always, I have been searching for hours on end on our subject, and cant resist collecting my thoughts here. The information you keep sharing prompts very late and obsessively fascinating searches and its great to keep finding more!

With all very best regards,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 1st December 2007, 07:43 PM

Postd by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

I wanted to address the piece you have posted separately Fernando (so it wouldnt get lost in the text of my previous post !

It is most interesting and seems to be assembled much in the manner of Spanish colonial pieces of late 18th to early 19th century. The guard seems to reflect the traditional downward quillons of early main gauche' and a vestigial shellguard with notched simulation.

It is workmanlike, suggesting the work of a blacksmith, and I am wondering if it might have been constructed in the Spanish colonies. The notched, shallow simulation of shellguard reminds me of hilts seen on espada ancha's of late 18th century. Weapons in these regions, especially in northern Mexico seems to have often been assembled with available components. It would not be hard to imagine an individual in the ersatz units with the Spanish military contriving a knife in the manner of one of these main gauche' to accompany one of the heavy cuphilts that still reflect the beloved rapiers of Spain.

The stamped II is hard to speculate, though the Romal numerals seen on the hilt are symmetrically applied seemingly more in a motif fashion, however they are so deliberate, they seem to imply some inherent meaning. It would be tempting to presume it might have been intended to reflect a unit number associated with the individual. On the curiously applied inscribed X's and linear zigzag under the quillons, I cannot say on the two X's, but it is interesting that the zigzag could be a crude interpretation of lightning. If this is the case, that symbol in the parlance of Spanish symbolism used in early Mexico meant death.

All best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 5th December 2007, 01:13 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

While we continue research to keep this thread going I just wanted to bring it up to keep it active. I know there are readers and members out there who have brought out questions before on the markings and inscriptions on blades, and I encourage any of you to please bring them in here. We know that ethnographic weapons often carried European blades, even into the 20th century, in fact in the Sahara these old blades are sometimes still found.

We have made a great deal of progress here examining the history and symbolism involved in many of these markings and inscriptions. I would like to point out that there has been little work done on this topic in recent years, and I feel that the knowledge and expertise shared here on the forum by all of you provides one of the most viable avenues to advance the understanding and data concerning this important subject.

Thanks very much everyone,
All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 5th December 2007, 05:08 PM

Posted by:
katana
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent

Excellent thread....excellent information.

I have added this Rapier bladed Firangi to this thread, at Jim's suggestion.
The blade is likely mid to late 17th C - early 18th C. and has a dot pattern, consisting of a row of 4 dots with a singular dot above the third dot. After reading Fernando's post regarding the number 14, I thought it could be a symbollic mark to this effect. I remember from a previous thread that Jim had mentioned that German armourers had used 'dot patterns' as maker's marks....and could be the case here (on the Rapier blade)
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[fernando]

Old 8th December 2007, 02:39 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

I would like to thank David for bringing this excellent example to this thread, as I think it is important to note that these thin rapier blades were indeed mounted on the Indian khanda hilts. We have been discussing this particular sword on a concurrent thread resulting in some outstanding discussion and observations on these foreign blades and their effect on the use of these swords in India.
As David has kindly shown here, and the reason I thought the sword should be posted in this thread is the linear arrangement of four punched dots, which seems surmounted by another. As Fernando has well observed, the magick or talismanic numbers 1441,1414 are often represented in various ways, and are significant in the symbolism often found in markings on these blades.
The use of dots as a numeric in association with other key markings seems well represented in many examples, especially the 'anchors' and of course the 'sickle' marks, but seems quite unusual in this linear fashion.

The number three has obvious connotation, and that of four may well be represented as suggested, in multiplied palindrome or possibly the very simple symbolism of the four elements, the four cardinal directions etc. In trying to establish allegory, possibly the world? wholeness? It is difficult to imagine without more markings along with the dots.

I'd like to hear others thoughts, and as always, hope for other examples of blades with systemic arrangement of dots on blades..with or without other marks.
David, would you mind showing the entire 'firangi' as I'd like to illustrate again a classic example of 'foreign' blades in an important ethnographic weapon that perfectly exemplifies the importance of out topic.
Thank you so much again !
All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 9th December 2007, 04:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff Pringle
Member

Join Date: Nov 2005

Recently I was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC, and saw in one of their displays of rapiers an example with eyebrow markings in the fuller (very similar to the eyebrows seen on many later, more eastern blades), dated to the late 1500s. Also, an example with the letter �S� stamped into the blade at the end of the fuller, quite similar to a knife I have whose blade is the cut down remains of a 17th C. rapier. Could the �S� be for �Solingen,� or is that too obvious?
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[fernando]

Old 9th December 2007, 06:45 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thank you so much for joining us here! Your suggestion on the 'S' on the rapier blade is absolutely not 'too' obvious. I really dont consider anything in that category, as too often the case of not being able to see the forest for the trees comes into play.
"...discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought".
-Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986)

While I cannot say this is the case here, I think it is worth considering and definitely think we should review instances of this 'S' occurring on blades and see what can be found. It should be noted that there were prominant Spanish smiths and marks such as 'Sebastian' (which appears singularly on one obviously German blade 17th c. and the 'Sahagun' which also occurs without secondary name).

Thank you again Jeff, excellent entry! Let's see what we can find

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 12th December 2007, 02:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I regret not having been able to help feeding this vital thread some further. Museums don't allow for pictures, and book authors don't respond to query emails .
I can only refer to two more examples inventoried in the Viscount of Pindela collection, which is now partly exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, in Guimarães ... with a rope keeping the visitors at distance
One of them, item #70 of the book, a XVIII century cast brass hilt sword with later engraving works, with a curved blade, has in both sides the following inscription:
X EN XX MENÊ XX
In the end of the inscription there is a symbol, naturaly the maker's punction, which represents an anchor, with its top decorated in cross ... as per the book quotation.
The other one, item #73 of the book, a XVIII century sword, with a cofin shaped pommel. The blade, narrow but elegant, has a little fuller and, inside it, in both sides, in major font, the following legend:
" IHN " MINI "

I have emailed the Author of "As Armas e os Barões", asking him to clarify his definition of "fear of God", concerning the legend IN MENE in a sword contained in his book, but i had no answer up to now.

I know the above isn't much; i just hope it's better than nothing

All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 12th December 2007, 11:03 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend?

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 06:05 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Its good to have you guys back at it here!!
Jeff, you may have something there. While the 'anchor' seems inclined to the Spanish blades, and as you note, the cross and orb seem aligned with the Solingen blades...what is puzzling is the anchors on the German blades with spurious Spanish signatures and inscriptions. Conversely, I dont think the orb and cross occurs on Spanish or Portuguese blades does it?

Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. As far as I can find, the word 'mene' seems to have connections to a Biblical allegory in the Book of Daniel, and has to do with the foretelling of the fall of Babylon in the appearance of mysterious symbols on the kings wall. The term 'mene' is interpreted by Daniel to mean that God had numbered the days of his kingdom. Is has been discovered that the term also represented a monetary value, but that has been explained allegorically to note the number interpretation.
This story has led to the well known phrase, "the writing is on the wall" and possibly the inscription has some similar meaning i.e. your days are numbered or something on these lines. Perhaps the rather morose theme of the sword with the coffin shaped pommel corresponded with the inscription?

On the one blade it is interesting that the IHN is repeated three times. It seems that often acronyms, symbols or marks are repeated in this manner noting the numeric significance in emphasizing the symbolism. i.e. the kings head mark repeated four times in line; ANDREA FERARA repeated four times in sequence, and these 'X's often occurring in twos punctuating phrases or words. These are the examples that come to mind, but surely there are others.

Thanks for keeping us going guys!!!

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,023

Hi Jim,
Just a little detail ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote).


I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ?
Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 10:41 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I have these very old lances, supposedly one from the XVI and other from the XVII centuries.
The older one would be for hunting and the "newer" one for defence ... with butt spike and all that.
Both appear to have been made by regional smiths.
The defence one has on both blade sides three times the letter S deeply stroke. I don't think is a maker's mark, with all that exuberance. Besides, local smiths in that time were not allowed to make arms for their own trade, but only by order of some important client. So in my humble view, the marks are either the family or heraldic initials of some mannor house or, and here goes my fantasy, some kind of mystic mighty symbol.
The hunting lance has no marks, but i take this chance to show both pieces, as both are kept close, and also because i am pleased to have these two specimens in my little collection
Sorry for the abuse
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 15th December 2007, 12:23 AM

Posted by
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

You're right Fernando, trying to determine the meaning of words inscribed on blades can be extremely difficult, especially when there are words used that are possibly transliterated, such as often happened in Solingen work. There are also archaic terms that might have had certain meaning in earlier times, as I suggested with the allegorical metaphor. The mene alluded to a coin, also termed 'mina' and in some variation meant 'to be counted'. I have not been able to find anything worthwhile on IHN (in German ='it' which seems unlikely).
Admittedly this line of suggestion is 'way out of the box' but seemed worth mentioning.
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 15th December 2007, 07:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere?
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[fernando]

Old 15th December 2007, 10:38 PM

Posted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

:) Flogging A Dead Horse Here ....
Please !
Can anyone identify this mark on what is most likely an English Shear Steel backsword from the late 17th - early 18th century ?

(missing attachments)












Currently mounted as a N. African (Algerian?) Sayf .
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 03:20 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Yay!!! Its great to see you here Rick!!!!
This is again, what this thread is about....European and as seen here, British blades on distinctly ethnographic weapons. It is really interesting that the British had pretty well established trade in the Maghreb in the very early 17th century, and English nobles and merchants are shown in portraits wearing these 'nimcha's. Although typically considered Moroccan they did diffuse throughout the littoral and as you note, were locally termed sa'if rather than the collectors term nimcha.

This is an actual makers mark similar to something I have seen before, but if I recall was unable to find a reliable match. It is an unusually stylized mark that has degraded considerably, and does seem of the period you suggest as the blade seems British and corresponding.
We need 'the books' on this one.....Jeff and Fernando!!! help. Gyngell, Boeheim, Lenciewicz.

Thank you for joining us here on the thread Rick. While we're looking, could you please explain the term 'shear' steel. I'm pretty 'uh' ,rusty ,on my metallurgy and would like to know more on that.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jeff,


Originally Posted by Jeff D
Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? (Quote)

Jeff


A trend yes, but maybe not an exclusive situation. I guess these trade symbols had a condition to be copied or even adopted by other Peoples, who later developed their own evolutions and modifications. I am thinking of the example shown in post #50, where the cross over the orb was a typical Portuguese Chivalry Order. We also know that there are cases where something that was adopted from another culture, place or people became so popularized by the "copier/adopter" that, for the public conscience, such thing was their own creation.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 04:09 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere? (Quote)


I am no more than a mere ignorant, but i have a deep conviction that these terms refer something spiritual/cabalistic/religious, in no way a place, a factory, or the like.
The hipothesis of being some symbolic situation relative to be numbered, as per Daniel's profecies, would not be yet finally outruled. Probably the explanation, not being precisely this, will be its neighbour.
I keep trying to find out, within my modest possibilities.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 04:10 PM

Postd by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

:) Shear Steel
Thanks for the welcome Jim !

From another site :

" Shear Steel - Before the development of Crucible Steel, Blister Steel was forged by repeated folding and forge welding to mix the areas of high and low carbon steel. Shear Steel was the lowest quality generally created and further folding and welding created Double Shear Steel. Long regarded as ideal for blades and cutting edges, primarily because the slag trapped within the steel lead to a serrated edge without it being purposely formed. "

I say this about the blade because there are some curious areas on one side that look as if they have eroded/rusted in layers .
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 04:35 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.
Jim (Quote)


Thank you for the new perspectives on the marking of the lance, which i will seriously consider. This piece was bought by my seller to the keeper of an old country farm ( mannor ) house, in an area full of old nobility estates. The lady quoted the lance as being from the "house defences". The hunting lance is not marked and therefore off topic, but i can add is also Portuguese.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 17th December 2007, 03:22 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Rick, thank you for explaining that on shear steel, a term I have heard but did not really understand. I wish I had an answer to return on the marking on the Moroccan sa'if, but as I say, though I have seen similar I have no distinct name to offer..yet. We never stop looking! There are possibilities in the references I have mentioned, and whoever gets to them will hopefully find some clues.
We have made some good progress on some of the other frequently seen markings on ethnographic weapons with European blades, and as always, the research continues.

Fernando, I'm still with you on the strong possibility of cabalistic origins in many of these markings, so we'll keep looking. I think there is key symbolism in the three sequence of the 'S's on the lance too. In an interesting aside, reading on pirate flags (prompted by the discovery of the ship that had been the notorious Captain Kidd's) I found that the skull and crossbones was not as prominantly used as typically represented, and that one pirate captain used the symbol repeated 'three' times. Symbolism, found even with these scoundrels of the sea it seems.
.

[fernando]

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Just reviewing some inscriptions on rapier blades and one had the Solingen example I.H.N. Solingen

This seems to suggest an acronym or primary letters of some other phrase or wording in the punctuation.

Another German blade 17th c. PETER WUNDES IHN SOLINGEN
While this seems to read by this maker 'in' Solingen, in German grammar the 'ihn' goes not mean 'in'.

Another Italian rapier c.1650 IHN. SOLINGEN punctuated between

Another Italian c.1620 I.H.N. entirely by itself suggesting obviously by the punctuation between the letters that they may be primary letters of a phrase or wording rather than a word itself.

* Solingen blades noting that as a 'place' of manufacture often have variations of ME FECIT SOLINGEN (Solingen made me)

Another note on the triple repitition :
An Italian rapier c.1650 NE.NE.NE
What could this mean? but the three emphasis is clear!

While on another Italian rapier of the same period:
A.S.H.S. repeated many times
again this seems primary letters of words in a phrase, emphasized
by repitition as if to multiply the power of the phrase.

I think these examples are good support for your theory Fernando! But I still haven't come up with 'MENE' yet, but could this also be used in acronym form as in these other examples? rather than a single word.

The research continues

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 18th December 2007, 11:49 AM

Posted by:
E.B. Erickson
Member

Join Date: Dec 2007

Hey all,
A few weeks ago Jim asked me to add my two cent's worth to this thread, so here goes. I've read the posts to this point, and can offer some thoughts on several of the marks discussed. Please bear in mind that the comments are my opinions only, but where possible I'll provide some sort of reference.

First, I think that some of the anchor marks being discussed aren't anchors at all, but are crosses with some decorative touches to the base and with added crossbars. Many of these marks appear on Spanish blades, which was (is?) a predominantly Catholic country, so it isn't surprising to see crosses at the end of fullers. The differences in the designs may be due to smiths having a distinctive cross as an identifying mark (and a blade may or may not have the smith's name in the fuller). Other differences may be because there have been a lot of variations on the Christian cross over the years, and the crosses at the end of fullers can reflect local/smith preferences.

Solingen apparently used actual anchors as a mark (or some of it's smiths did), and these don't look much like the marks referred to in the paragraph above. In Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" there's a photo of a brass-hilted English cav. sword with S-shaped members to the basket, and the blade bears an anchor mark. I have in my collection an English sword of the late 1700s with a German blade, and the blade is etched in the fuller "Ihn Solingen" and at the end of the fuller is a nicely etched nautical anchor (but not a fouled anchor like one sees on naval swords).

On IHN SOLINGEN, I think the IHN really does mean "in". Remember that spelling back then was very phonetic, and there wasn't much in the way of standardization. Punch marks between letters may just be embellishment.

On MINI/MENE. One often sees this as INIMINI (what I want to know is, where is minymoe? --bad joke), and there was a suggestion on an old SFI thread that this may be an abbreviated form of the Latin IN TE DOMINI. Unfortunately, the thread is going to be about impossible to find, because it was one of those "What is this sword" threads. The sword happened to be English ca. 1700 with INIMINI in the blade's fullers.

And then there's Eastern blades with their own versions of European maker's marks. These can be tough to tell apart! For example, see eBay 190183023239, which ended a day or two ago. Euro or Eastern?

Oh well,that's enough for now! --ElJay
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[fernando]

Old 20th December 2007, 10:20 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Eljay , its so good to have you join in on this! Your knowledge and experience in these early European blades is well established and I really do appreciate your insight into some of these puzzling topics.

The so called anchor marks it seems, for some time were regarded by many as simply flourishes in the decorative motif on these early blades. As we have discussed, there were often cryptic anagrams, and coded wording and phrases applied on many blades carrying either patriotic or talismanic meanings, so equally imbued motif such as these multibar cross devices seem well placed.
I think that as you note, the religious symbolism may have been key in the Spanish applications, but possibly many of these might have been closely tied to the merchant marks prevalent from late 16th c. onward. Possibly these may have been the source for the term anchor.
As you note, there were German makers who used nautical devices such as the anchor, having nothing to do with maritime themes. I recall it seems, a sextant like device also.

Your point on the use of IHN is well placed as well, and it does seem that the phonetics might be used in the constant transliterations and variations in spellings. I have seen German made blades with the same Spanish name on opposite faces of the blade, each spelled differently. Possibly the maker tried to make the inscription appear more Latin? or religious? Possibly the same concept in abbreviated version of the Latin phrase as you note, INI MINI which makes sense, but still think maybe the MENE spelling might have other possibilities.

A question on East India Company marks, it seems the typically quadranted heart with the company initials VEIC does appear on bayonet blades of the 18th c. as well as firearms, but I havent ever seen it on a sword blade, have you? On the Dutch EIC the VOC does appear on hanger blades of the 18th century (I've only ever seen them on kastanes) but it seems they invariably have the year 1768 or close to that. Have you encountered swords with the VOC on the blade?

On the crosses/anchors it would be great if we could find some that distinctly appear with makers names so maybe we could associate?

Thank you again Eljay. I know you're busy and having you here on what is developing into a resource that will hopefully help us all in better understanding and recognizing these marks, is very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 23rd December 2007, 07:01 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

IN NOMINE DOMINE = In the name of the Lord.
For reasons connected with the evolution of the sword, during the XII century, as blades acquired a certain form, the spiritual and religious sense of the Knights ( Cruzaders ) caused the frequent appearance of certain phrases, as also or together with the inclusion of names of sword smiths, which had already been practised during the XI century, namely in the Solingen area.
Explicit phrases like IN NOMINE DOMINI, HOMO DEI ( man of God ), or BENEDICTUS DEUS MES ( My blessed God ), as also initials like NEDRC NEDRU (Nomine Eterni Dei Regis Caeli/Universi), or BOAC (Beati Omnipotensque Angeli Christi), would give place to composite situations like IN NOMINE DOMINE/CICE LINE ME FECIT, Cice Line naturaly being the smith.
Amazingly this type of inscriptions was seen firstly in central Europe and specially England, and only after it gained intensity in Spain, round the XIV century.
https://calderobruja.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/evolucion-de-la-espada-hasta-la-edad-media/
I would therefore infer that later expressions like IN MENE, IHN MINI and the like, are no more than corruptions of IN DOMINE DOMINI.
Concerning the sugestion that the symbols resembling anchors are after all decorated crosses, could well be true, though a bit hard to swallow. Maybe some further evidence comes to light, one of these days.
All the best
Fernando.
,

[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM

Posted by:
Dom
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)

Hi every body

just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present

source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992)

à +

Dom

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM

Posted by.
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts!

I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6
'
Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality.
The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality.

I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc...
These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...)

All the Best
.
Jeff

[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau

INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum"
IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol?
MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada


Hi Rick,

I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before.

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Katana,

Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life.

All the Best
Jeff

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:53 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thank you Dom for the scan.

Just a note that E is a Indian copy of Assaddollah. See my last post on the wolf mark I think this puts it in context.

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Its great to see more outstanding input keeping our thread going!
Dom, thank you so much for sharing the excerpts out of Lebedynsky's great book, and excellent resource that never gets the recognition it deserves. What a perfect Christmas gift .

Jeff, Im glad you're back, and I know this time of year is pretty hectic. As always, you've done an excellent job of compiling data and keeping perspective on the ongoing observations, especially good information on those Latin worded religious invocations.
Interesting on the clearly later added inscription on the Polish sabre, which seem to have been crudely added in imitation of much earlier markings that recall the 'fringia' mark and as you note, numeric applications of dots.
Something that comes to mind with the dots are arrangements of dots relating to religious invocation on the 'paternoster' blades. Need to add more on these and the varying dot arrangements.

Fernando, as always you are on course with your perspectives on the Latin invocations, and I agree that there were corrupted applications often, and that in the ever widening range of copying popular phrases and symbols, much of the original symbolism is lost.

I often wonder just how ancient is this use of marks, invocation and symbolism on weapons. While most of our discussion goes back to the Medeival period, we know that Viking swords carried invocations and superstitious symbolism. I believe that in those swords, typically the Frankish made weapons had makers names in the hilt.

Lets look into the dot arrangements on the 'paternosters' and the Viking markings more.

Thanks very much guys,
All the best, and a very Merry Christmas to all!!!!
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 27th December 2007, 04:39 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thought I would look further into the rather esoteric 'Paternoster' blades, which may have some remote associations with numeric dot arrangements found on European blades.
In discussing various methods, whether genuinely effective or not in lightening blades in the 15th and 16th centuries in Europe, Burton ("Book of the Sword", p.136) describes these 'paternoster' blades. Apparantly the numeric arrangements of depressions placed on these blades were termed 'paternosters' because the dots in number suggested the beads in rosaries. He notes that these blades were "...fitted with round depressions which enabled the pious to count the number of his 'vain repititions' even in the dark'. While this practice seems somewhat doubtful, the association does show the implications of religious symbolism imbued in these early blades, in this case I believe that Germany was the origin of many of these.

Although obviously not 'markings', I thought that the numeric symbolism might be pertinant.

Best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 4th January 2008, 09:14 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Something interesting I found on the I.H.S.

I.H.S. is the "...monogram of the name of Jesus in Greek 'Iesous'.
'H' is not the Roman 'aitch' but the capital form of the Greek 'eta'.
The mistaken notion that these initials correspond to Roman letters gave rise to the erroneous interpretation that I.H.S. is an acronym for 'Iesus Hominum Salvator' (Jesus, saviour of men) or 'I have suffered'.

from "A Dictionary of Classical, Biblical and Literary Allusions", A.Lass, D.Kiremidjian & R.Goldstein, N.Y. 1987, p.122.

Since these initials do seem to occur on arms and armor occasionally, this seemed interesting.
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[fernando]

Old 4th January 2008, 10:38 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


That's right, Jim,
As Jeff has quoted in post # 112, a Jesuit symbol or, better said, ( if i may, Jeff ) a symbol adopted by Jesuits, once its origins date back to much earlier times, like the IV century, appearing for example in catacombs.
They also call this symbol a christogram.
Oh boy, the Internet is a miracle
Fernando

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 5th January 2008, 05:01 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

It sure is Fernando!

Interesting illustration of the IHS with the cross, and it seems very much in line with a lot of the markings we are reviewing. I wonder if a 'Christogram' like this would appear as a marking on weapons, I dont recall seeing any exactly like this, but many quite close.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 21st April 2008, 04:46 PM

Posted by:
TVV
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

For future reference, here is a picture of the markings on a blade, mounted with a Moroccan hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=28907&stc=1

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[fernando]

Old 21st April 2008, 05:30 PM

Posted by:
CourseEight
Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Coral Springs, FL

That's a good idea, I'll toss in a link to my Ottoman naval dirk with what appears to be a French smallsword blade (or thusly inspired):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6263

,

[fernando]

Old 27th April 2008, 04:10 PM

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK:


feeling devilish, i thought i'd throw these in to the pot.

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[fernando]

Old 27th April 2008, 05:23 PM

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK:

here's a better shot of the marking that i made a few minutes ago:


the blade is also marked closer to the tip


can you see what it is yet?



fairly good replica of a high ranking autro-hungarian hussar sabre, and a LOT cheaper than the original. just thought i'd show that just because it's marked doesn't mean it's not a copy or a blade marked to make it look classier. the marks are pretty clear examples tho, supposedly copied from the original in a museum.

made in germany (solingen) tho this year, instead of the mid-18th c., the marks are laser cut

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[fernando]

Old 9th October 2008, 08:11 PM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008


Hello everyone. Dr. Ann was kind enough to recommend this forum for your informed input. This Saracen was part of the Morossini collection and de-ascensioned in the early 60's. I am especially intrigued by the engravings in the blade as well as to what appears to be the camel bone grip. The metal on the grip acid tests to be 24kt gold with a Nubian emerald in the butt. I have included photos taken at 30X of the blade, but I can only tell you that there is iron included in the marriage of metals. At the base of the blade the flower (?) acid tests as silver. There is an emerald and ruby studded gold sheath that accompanies it, but sadly was "repaired" somewhere prior to 1963. At this time I am carefully restoring the sheath with hopes to keep the integrity of the piece. If anyone can give me some input on this item of intrigue, I would greatly appreciate it.

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 11th October 2008, 05:26 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hi Bjeweled, and welcome to the forum!
This is indeed an intriguing piece, and very attractive along with a most distinguished provenance. In my opinion, this is essentially a remounted 'koummya', which is the Moroccan version of the Arab janbiyya dagger. The blade is of the basic koummya profile, though the fullers are not commonly seen on most examples, suggesting this may be an earlier blade.
The intricate outlined motif on the blade seem to be in line with decorative motif on blades in Maghrebi regions, though I have not found exact duplicate of the zigzag linear.

The hilt is most unusual, and completely atypical for koummya, with the camel bone, gold mounted, and jeweled likely intended to honor a heirloom blade. The markings on the horn grip seem to be selected decoratively rather than specifically symbolic, and to carry aesthetically traditional theme.

The 'ichthys' or fish symbol, is of course considered a Christian symbol today, however in early times it was a Greek alphabetic symbol. Interestingly, through the Phoenicians presence in North Africa, this symbol became the letter 'f' in the ancient Berber alphabet, though it seems doubtful that this representation is intended in this motif.

The 'Star of Solomon' or 'Star of David' seems to even further complicate the markings on this weapon which would be most likely from Muslim regions in Morocco. Again, this six point star, now immediately associated with the Jewish Faith as the 'Magen David' (shield of David), had much earlier origins,with its intersecting triangles presenting complex symbolism in various cultures and religions.

Having noted these comments on these familiar symbols, it is important to note here that in art and decoration in North Africa in particular, such symbols were often used incongruently when intended simply as geometric motif.

The blade on this dagger seems to have some age, and as noted, is quite possibly a heirloom, with such remounting typically difficult to assess as far as age, especially with precious metal which does not reveal patination and aging as in standard metals.

An intriguing and extremely attractive item, likely refurbished for either presentation or as a keepsake for a person of importance.

Thank you so much for sharing it here!

All best regards,
Jim


P.S. Just found some zig zag info in notes suggesting that the Fulani and Dogon used this motif, likely putting this to the south of Morocco toward Mali. Not surprising! Trade routes...camels.....seems to fit pretty well.
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[fernando]

Old 12th October 2008, 12:27 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member


Join Date: Aug 2008

Default Thank you Jim!
I so appreciate your input on this. To give you a little more background on this piece...there was a tag on the saracen, from the auction house, stating "TAKEN DURING THE SECOND CRUSADE". After researching the Morosini family I discovered an aristocratic family with lineage dating to 1148 when Domenico Morosini was elected Doge of Venice. With the Second Crusade taking place from 1147 through 1149...hmmm. Considering Giovanni Morosini (the collector) was given a desk by his brother that once belonged to Napolean I would presume his family were collectors as well and keepers of their family lot. This may be a bit of a presumption, but I wonder if the Doge was the original Venetian owner of this Saracen.
I agree with the possibility of the blade being remounted. Kudos to the artistian who matched the zig zag pattern from the blade to the hilt.

New York Times Archives; July 19, 1902
Sept. 16, 1932
Time Magazine; Oct. 17. 1932

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[fernando]

Posted by:
Jim McDougall


You're most welcome Bejeweled, I enjoyed the research and it really is an attractive dagger. It sounds as if this Italian family has some very impressive lineage, and now that the crusades connection is revealed, the use of the antiquated term Saracen is explained. It is not unusual to see items of unusually elevated provenance appearing in auctions and sale catalogs.

I do not believe this blade, though earlier than most examples commonly found, could date much further back than the 18th century, possibly into the early 19th. As I noted, the zigzag motif seems to be somewhat a Saharan motif, and was likely added at the time the blade was mounted in the present horn mounts etc. It is not unusual to see most unusual items in the eclectic holdings of wealthy and noble collectors, and these items were purposely gathered to impressively decorate parlors and smoking rooms in Victorian times. I believe this item may have quite interesting provenance into this apparantly esteemed collection, but personally doubt the crusades part of it.

What are the cites to New York Times and Time magazine referencing?

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 12th October 2008, 03:17 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008


That so makes sense. I appreciate your passion and knowledge about this.

There is another interesting factor... The Nubian (Egyptian) emerald on the butt and the ones in the sheath haven't been mined since the mid 1500's upon the discovery of Columbia and their far more beautiful gemstones. Since I had to remove the emeralds from their bezels on the sheath to be able to do the soldering required to improve a terrible repair, I discovered a backing on the stones. Further investigating and magnification shows it to be a mixture of crushed malachite and bees wax, a technique used for thousands of years. Upon magnification of the emerald in the butt it has never been removed and has the same backing. So either the artisan stock piled the emeralds for 200 to 300 years or the sheath and grip were created long before the blade, or possibly the age of the blade is a bit older. As you referred to the fullers...just maybe? The techniques and tools used for the gold work and cutting of the gemstones is applicable of an earlier period than the 1500's.

Oh...I am a master jeweler with over 3 decades of experience, and an avid gemstone lover and collector.

This is so much fun, thank you again! It just becomes more interesting...

Yes, the cites are in reference to research on the Morosini's.

Kindest regards,
Bjeweled
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[fernando]

Old 12th October 2008, 05:31 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Thank you Bejeweled for the kind comments, and this gets more and more fascinating! Trying to assess a piece from photographs, even as nicely posted as you have presented definitely has its drawbacks. My view on the blade is of course just opinion based on the profile, fullering and general appearance of the blade, which seems consistant to koummya blades of these regions. I will have to see if I can find more on other examples to see if they could date back further.

It is truly fascinating to hear this perspective on the gemstones on this piece, especially knowing of your clearly well versed knowledge and experience on this topic (now I understand the psuedonym !. It becomes really exciting when evaluating a piece when the stones used offer such historic potential!
So the emeralds in Egypt were substandard to those found in Colombia, and the mining ceased entirely after the 1500's? It does seem that in regions of North Africa, time really does stand still in many ways, and anachronism prevails. If these gemstones were part of an early cache from early trade interaction or raids, common in Saharan tribal culture, it does seem possible they might have been secreted away for hundreds of years.

It seems like new discoveries are constantly being revealed in these remote regions, like the fact that Timbuktu, once considered 'the middle of nowhere' hence the oft used expression, was actually a cultural and academic center, far beyond the dusty, mud building trade stop in the middle of the Sahara.

I think gemstones are fascinating as well, and am currently in Arizona, and have been travelling through the southwest. The history and lore of the turquoise, malachite, and other stones is beyond compelling, and once you are taken in by it, you simply cannot stop trying to learn more! While I am admittedly a complete novice, the fascination has no bounds, and now that you have brought this piece in with these mysterious gemstones...I want to learn more.

Can you possibly show the scabbard, even if not entirely complete?
Do you mean that the techniques and tools used in mounting these on the hilt and scabbard, and the cut on the stones are pre-1500's?
Is it possible that these are indeed very old stones held as heirlooms or hidden away as ancestral treasure, and that the tools and techniques used follow old traditional methods and implements? In indiginous tribal areas it seems that ancient methods prevail in many instances, especially in more remote regions and in the case of tribes who live essentially as they have for countless centuries.

It is both interesting and exciting that you have approached the research on this dagger in such depth, including the outstanding work on the history of this family. With your expertise in jewelry and gemstones, along with the mystery of those used in the mounting of the dagger, this does indeed get more fun!
In the words of Carroll....."curiouser and curiouser!".

Lets keep working on it OK? Has Dr. Ann looked at the blade BTW?

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 03:21 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

I agree that this blade has a koummya profile and I believe that is it's origin. I do question if the engravings are purely decorative or a geometric motiff. Perhaps it is me being a romantic, but I believe there is some sort of symbolism reference. The engravings are worn on both the hilt and the blade, but it appears that the auction house blackened the zig zag pattern on the hilt to appear more obvious.

Not all of the Nubian emeralds were substandard to the Columbian, but the vast majority, yes. Emerald (beryl) depends upon it's depth of color from chromium, and unfortunately mother earth placed very little in that region. As of this time, we are aware of 3 productive mines in Egypt, one which was named after Cleopatra and her passion thereof.

Arizona...Route 66...how nice! I love the west and visit as often as possible...mostly Santa Fe. Actually the first time I visited my beloved southwest was Tucson, for the international gem shows. It just feels like home, hopefully someday it will be. Are you aware of your wonderful Ant Hill garnets? Spectacular! And the mining techniques (none) are even more amazing.

I have low quality photos of the scabbard at another computer. Tomorrow I will email it to you. Another interesting note...when applying heat to the gold, little impurities pop and fizzle from the metal, showing the inability to refine gold as we do now. See, it's still fun!

Dr. Ann has only seen low resolution photos of the dagger. I have yet to have professional microphotography photos taken of the blade, as needed for a better identification as to whether it is wootz, very old wootz, or not. Actually, could you tell me what magnification strength would provide the best results? She is such an extremely knowledable and considerate lady, with a burning drive for her passion...such an admirable person!

I am so pleased that you want to continue working on this! Perhaps someday when I visit my "future" home, you would like to have a hands on inspection?

Kindest regards,
bjeweled
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 12:02 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member


Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA


How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best
.

M


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean .
I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger.
However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard.
Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation?
Fernando (Quote)
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 03:53 PM

Posted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

More zigzag pattern ?
This time a Balkan ca 1800 Yataghan scabbard .

This Koummya blade looks very early and somewhat crude .

Fascinating story .

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 04:39 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


This has a Spanish provenance, but undoubtfully with a Moorish influence.

Fernando

(missing attachments)

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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 05:04 PM

Posrted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004


What really strikes me is how unfinished the blade is; design is beautiful but so crude looking .
In the 12th century a better finish could have been acheived .

So does that make this a blade of humble origin ??
-
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 05:04 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best

M (Quote)


That also has already been under consideration:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001319.html

Could actualy only be no more than a prosaic view ... untill real evidence pops up, which i doubt.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 05:56 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by celtan:
How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best

M (Quote)


Actually this is an extremely interesting topic Manolo! though I feel doubtful that it applies with this piece. I am always happy to entertain every possibility in identifying and understanding any weapon, and if more could be found to support the idea it would provide some interesting potential.

The only weapons I have seen with distinct intention of use for artillery charge measuring were the so called 'bombardier' stilettos from Italy, if I recall correctly. Might be an excellent topic for another thread !

All best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 10:27 PM

Posted y:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008


Thank you Rick...it fascinates me also!
With much regard,
bjeweled
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[fernando]

Old 13th October 2008, 11:42 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you Rick, the yataghan scabbard example is great! and Fernando, very interesting navaja, indeed Moorish influence present. One other example of the zigzag pattern is seen on flyssa scabbards.
.

[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 02:16 AM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA

Hi Fernando and Jim,

Had not seen that other post, very interesting the Montjuich Main Gauche pics posted by Marc. I have always been fascinated by these weapons.

Myself, I feel that the handle was made explicitly for that weapon, and that the owner had a practical use for the marks. Music tempo? Military Engineer marks? Naval measures?

Sooner of later, one of us will get to the answer...

Best

M


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
That also has already been under consideration:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001319.html
Could actualy only be no more than a prosaic view ... untill real evidence pops up, which i doubt. (Quote)
Fernando

[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 12:49 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


We can see that smiths are equiped with a set of punches of different shapes, from straight to semi circular. With these being continuously applied next to each other, they form the different designs. Also they appear to vary in length; the ones used in my navaja are quite small ( circa 1/2"), with two different gouge shapes.
Hell, this revelation was quite worthy of a genius
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 12:54 PM

Posrted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,031


Originally Posted by celtan
... Sooner of later, one of us will get to the answer... (Quote)


Soon i will bring (once more) this to European Armoury Forum.
Who knows, with fresh members and all
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 02:15 PM

Posted by:
Lee
EAAF Staff

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA


Another term for the "zig-zag" in the context of Native American jewelry is "rocker-engraving," so named as a short bladed chisel is rocked from corner to corner as it is advanced forward to created the larger design.

Example from an early southwestern or plains bracelet:

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 02:59 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I first thaught this would be the technique, but later considered it couldn't be the one used in metals, specially on steel/iron, as needing considerable strenght to impress the marks. Also i found it rather unhandy to rock curved shapes like, for example, some small circular ones in my navaja.
I had the idea that such rock engraving tools were used in old shoe making and other leather crafts.
So much for my geniality

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[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 07:29 PM

Posted by:
Lee
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA

The Native Americans would have been into steel tools by this time; if the bracelet above is Navajo, then it is likely early 1870s, right at the dawn of their silver working. I would agree this technique would be difficult once you were away from soft metals.

(I recently bought a collection of iron arrow points represented as Native American at a local antique store. An advanced bow collector who had passed on first sight, later found an article (I am still waiting for the promised copy) about these arrow tips, and returned to but them the next day. I always think of flint and other stone when I think Native American arrow points, but the very little that I could find on line was a real awakening for me and that was that iron arrowheads were adopted pretty much as soon as the material became available... but that will be another thread).
.

[fernando]

Old 14th October 2008, 08:34 PM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008


Ok guys...A friend of mine who is a fabulous artist/engraver, receives new blades from the manufacturer, softened, engraves the design of his choice or his client, then ships them back to the manufacturer to have them hardened and mounted into the hilt. This is how you get around the non-soft metals.
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[fernando]

Old 4th December 2008, 07:54 PM

Posted by:
Kuba
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008

Hello

I looking information about this blade

Is signed TOMAS AYALA and St. Clement's Cross

and have 35 cm long

In my opinion it is German imitation of XVIII century

Thank you for your help
.
Kuba

[fernando]

Old 4th December 2008, 07:56 PM

Posted by:
Kuba
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008


and next photo:
.

[fernando]

Old 5th December 2008, 03:56 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Hi Kuba,
Welcome to the Forum.
Before the knowledge people come in, let me speculate a bit .
Visibly a blade cut (or broken), suiting a dagger size. Tang also shortened, basicaly for the same purpose. The wrongly centered hole could have two purposes; either for fixing a dagger handle or simply to use the blade as a wall hanger
Why do you think the signature is not original and this blade was made over a century after that sword smith existed ? Anyway, Tomas de Ayala was one of the most imitated signatures of the period.
Let the experts come by and give a consistent diagnosis.
Fernando
.

[fernando]

Old 5th December 2008, 04:57 PM

Posted by:
katana
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent


Hi Kuba,
welcome, the hole in the tang appears to be 'punched' and not drilled....this could be a very good sign of age. Notice the metal is slightly 'raised' on the tang's edge and follows the contour of the hole. If the tang was shortened, I feel it could have been left longer...even for a dagger.
The blade's patina does seem to suggest a good age.

Regards David

(missing attachments)

[fernando]

Old 5th December 2008, 06:40 PM

Posted by:
Kuba
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008


I think that is XVIII century because is signed AYALA
original swords of Toledo have AIALA or AIA and DE TOLEDO

But what it means this St.Clemens cross ?
probably this is a true mark

This 1/4 sword :-) was found at the attic in very old house in Poland ,
in the region Gdańsk / Danzig , maybe come of old German colection ?
destroyed by Red Army in 1945

Sorry for my english :-) I know that Kali ordered an ashtray wine
.

[fernando]

Old 6th May 2009, 09:45 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


I am a bit too lazy to check if these tables were alredy posted here so, just in case, i post them now.
Not much harm if they are already here, somewhere
Fernando
.

.
Attached Images

[fernando]

Old 18th September 2009, 09:58 AM

Posted by:
buendia
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Silesia, Poland

Who can identify these marks?

***********************
.........................................


.

[fernando]

Old 18th September 2009, 03:01 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thanks for posting that Buendia! Its nice to see a posting on this trusty old thread
I'm curious about which book this table of markings is from, it is often helpful to know which context these references are in, as well as which language. Does the book make mention of the authors thoughts on the markings?

These are of course markings applied to trade blades, believed to have originated with trade guilds in Northern Italy, they are typically associated with Genoa, and as you can see that name is often used within the marks.
Genoan blades traded heavily to the north in colonial activity in the Black Sea as well as of course throughout the Meditteranean.
The usually dentated half circles are known as 'sickle marks' most often, though referred to my many other terms including eyelashes or even in some cases hogsbacks.
The 'Frindia' or 'Fringia' marks seem to derive from 16th-17th century application, perhaps sometimes later, usually in East European cases and there has been considerable debate on the word(s) which seem to be an acronym or phrase using first letters. It is often seen, as are the 'sickle' marks on Styrian blades, as well as certain other centers. Solingen began copying the marks, though often bracketing other marks inside them, especially the famed ANDREA FERARA, typically seen on blades for the Scottish market.

Thanks again Buendia, its always good to see interest in pursuing these fascinating markings and thier associations and application.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 18th October 2009, 07:04 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Definitely i don't reach full control of my new digital camera ... or perhaps is the camera that is no so good.
This sword is, i would say, from the XVII century. Judging by the width of its blade (4 cms) and fixation of the knuckle guard to the pommel, it would be a military weapon.
Its blade measures 80 cms. and is rather thin, which makes this a light handy sword, with 950 grams.
It bears along the fullers one of these traditional religious inscriptions 'MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO' (my sign ((symbol)) is the holly crucifix).
In both sides of the ricasso it has a punction of its smith; although we can discern a crucified christ, the cross is not a plain one. Also its top seems to have some kind of efect, which is almost imossible to figure out, due to its position under the langets.
The crucifix was a mark practiced by various smiths, like the German Hannes Cleles and Heinrich Koel (known as Coll) and the Toledan Pedro Hernandez, but i suspect there were more variations on this mark theme.
The exact provenance of this type of swords is often undistinguished and so called Iberian or Peninsular but, due to the system of its cup fixation, welded instead of screwed, may well be Portuguese ... not taking into account that until the mid XVII century Portugal was under controll of the Spanish Philipes, and contemporary weaponry fashions were an assumed mix.
It was acquired in a Portuguese mannor house, anyway.
Fernando

I wonder if anyone here has ever seen these smith marks ?!

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[fernando]

Old 18th October 2009, 07:05 PM
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Some more picures ...

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[fernando]

Old 18th October 2009, 08:03 PM

Posted by:
Norman McCormick
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007


Hi Fernando,
I really like your new acquisition. The attached photo is of a mark attributed to Hannes Cleles and is obviously different from the one on your sword. The 'Apostolic Cross' has been used by a few countries e.g. Hungary and within the Roman Church is associated specifically with the office of Cardinal. I wonder if it is possible that it is not a makers mark but a mark denoting that it belongs to or was made for a specific group e.g. Cardinals guard. Just thinking out loud. Regardless of who or what it's a great sword.
My Regards,
Norman

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[fernando]

Old 19th October 2009, 07:31 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Fernando, this is a fantastic good solid arming cuphilt, and you know my weakness for these beauties!!!
Norman, excellent observations on that 'Apostolic cross' and very plausible thoughts on its application.
While these type markings were often associated with the blades of certain makers, it does seem, as thoroughly discussed over years, that they were applied in more of a talismanic sense in many cases. In the placing on this, it does seem that a device used by a specific group might be possible.

Clearly, the cuphilt rapier was well established in both Portugal and Spain at some time early in the 17th century, though many of these, were produced also in Spain's provinces in Italy. The thin, thrusting blade rapiers were used well into the 18th century in traditional application in Spain, but by the mid to latter 18th century the cuphilt had extended into the military sector, especially in Spain's colonies.

When I first saw this beautifully aged cuphilt, my first thought was that it was a colonial example, and though familiar with the 'Caribbean' or Spanish forms, its provenance to Portugal suggested possibly South America.
This seems to be one of the 'arming' type examples of probably third quarter 18th century, and the blade appears to be of the military type produced usually in Solingen in that time. The style of lettering in the inscription and the blade itself resembles the familiar Spanish 'dragoon' blades of 1770's with the 'Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. inscription.

Interesting is the rolled edge of the cup, which vestigially represents the 'rompepuntas' of the early cuphilts which were intended ostensibly to catch the thin rapier blade of the opponent. These are not seen on colonially produced cuphilts of this period, and interesting to be seen in this application more as a finished appearance feature. The style of the grips are also a latter 18th-early 19th century affectation often seen on Spanish colonial swords with dual coloring. The lined elements on the quillons and knucklebow also resemble Spanish military swords of this period.

Thank you so much Fernando!! and good observations Norman.
I hope we can keep moving on this to see more on the interesting marking and what it might signify, and more on the inscription...would this be compared to any others particularly Portuguese?

All best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 05:21 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Addendum:
Further research on the notes for this interesting crucifix marking.
Most of the markings attributed to the German smiths were actually cross and orb rather than crucifix, such as Heinrich Coll, and from I understand, these were affectations added with inscriptions, names or invocations. I am not sure about markings by Pedro Hernandez, nor the crucifix seen on the blade by Cleles.

The form of cross seen here is most interesting and it seems that the cross with the normal sized patibulum (main cross beam) as well as the smaller upper beam (titulus) is indeed an apostolic cross as used in Hungary. It is also known as the Patriarchal cross.

In this case, the cross in Patriarchal form, as crucifix, is known in Spain as the Caravaca Cross, and is associated with a miracle in the southeast Spanish town of Caravaca de la Cruz. The cross is most typically flanked by two angels, who in the miraculous event c.1231 carried a cross comprised of part of the True Cross. There were indeed associations with the Knights Templar during the 15th century when they occupied this town.

Apparantly, this cross is often employed in a talismanic or amuletic sense, and is noted as often seen in Central and South America as such, as a good luck device. It would seem that this would correspond with Portuguese colonial presence in these regions and the Portuguese provenance as well as the fact that this does seem a colonial America's weapon from latter 18th c.

It is well known of course that there are a number of fraternal societies and groups with profound associations to Masonic lineage, and often less clearly to the Knights Templar, so perhaps this weapon might have belonged to a military officer in the colonial regions with these associations.

I also found a note in "An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" (Auguste Demmin, tranl. C.C.Black, 1901 ed. p.577) which illustrates a cross with two same sized patibulum (beams) and is noted as a mark supposed to have been on blades of Crusaders who had swords either made or stamped at Jerusalem. Demmin notes that he found a sword with such mark in the arsenal at Berlin, with hilt which suggested it was of 16th century. Perhaps the shape of the cross, if it does indeed correspond to the graphic without the vertical beam beyond the upper crossbeam, might be associated to this.

Hope this additional information might be useful, and adds to the outstanding mystique of this wonderful military cuphilt, which seems quite possibly of Portuguese provenance to probably South America.

All best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 01:20 PM

Posted by:
Dmitry
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009


From what I've seen of these, they are described as the Caribbean rapiers. Dating to the second half of 18th century looks right, unless the mark proves otherwise.
,

[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 04:39 PM

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


When I first saw this, I thought also of the 'Caribbean' versions of cup hilt rapier, as described by Peterson and Brickerhoff/Chamberlain, and are as previously noted, basically military 'arming' versions of the traditional cuphilt.
However, this example has more refined, though heavy, styling carrying the vestigial elements such as the rompepuntas.

The term 'Caribbean' seems to have become somewhat misaligned as these are actually 'colonial' as thier use and apparantly their production appear to have been widespread far beyond that sphere.
The dual colored grip is similar to those seen on Spanish colonial hilts on a number of edged weapons typically of latter 18th into early 19th. I have an example of court type sword of probably 1820's Mexico with this type of horn/ivory type grip. In style it is also with neoclassic style elements that are often seemingly incongruent, such as vestigial quillon arms placed reduntantly under a dish guard.

The mark truly is intriguing, and I think is likely associated in some way to an officer, probably with interest or membership in a group in league with the numerous fraternal or perhaps some Masonic presence. Also, it would seem that the use of the Caravaca Cross, with South American prevalence mentioned may have some bearing on its presumed colonial provenance.
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[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 06:36 PM

Posted :
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA

Hi Guys,

The central wide fuller makes the blade distinctly different to the "a dos mesas" type, so characteristic of iberian battle-swords in the 17-18th Cs.

I have seen such fullers in swedish, german and belgian blades.

The grip is a later replacement, its type was often seen in Spanish colonies from Filipinas to America.. Incidentally, the blade is too heavy for the pommel's size.

The motto is either galician or portuguese, most likely the latter.

Very good condition overall, congrats Ferd!
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[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 07:20 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Excellent observations Manolo!!!
Could you please say more on the term 'dos mesas' ? I am unfamiliar with that particular term and would like to know more. I agree with the cross section of the blade resembling the Solingen type productions of c.1760's with the 'Spanish motto' often found on 'dragoon' swords.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 08:33 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA


You mean the "No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor" ?

The " a dos mesas" is roughly a flat hexagonal cross cut blade.

Jim, I'm afraid I must eat crow: checked my database of old Iberian blades, and saw several with the central wide fuller...

Drat! I'm fallible after all....

Or am I? Perhaps I was just testing you.

Yeah, that's it, just testing you...

: )


Manolo, you rascal!! LOL!! Thats OK, I need testing, besides eating crow is often part of my regimen and I do it a lot
Thank you for the info on 'dos mesas' is the hexagonal blade which I always call the dragoon blade (from certain references) and indeed often with the No me saques sin Razon motto.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 20th October 2009, 11:24 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Hi guys, thank you all
In face of so many coments, i decided to take off my cuff links and do a bit research myself, trying to instantly catch pace with those, like you, whom gathered a lot of luggage in this subject through long time.
I will in any case continue researching and try and join as most material as i can on this item, as i usually do.
Concerning Norman's sugestion about the crucifix; considering he is right ... or half way to it. We can even go as far as imagining that this mark is a composition made with the smith punction and the client's symbol. But i am not personaly inclined to it, until further evidence ... or until we find this mark in some book or picture.
I went into the unusual (for me) adventure of dismounting the guard; fortunately the pommel is the screw type. Now the mark is as clear as possible. A real chalenge; besides the classic christ in a crucified position, as may be seen in Pedro Hernandez mark, there is a peripherical double beam cross, upon a sort of calvary and with an aureole on the top.
I wonder whether this is a Patriarchal or a Lorena Cross, or a 'modified' setup created by the smith.
I couldn't yet confirm if and what inscriptions Pedro Hernandez and other eventual crucifix mark smiths used to inscribe in their blades, but suddenly i realized that the phrase MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO is not an abstract allusion but an objective one, that is, the signal (sign) they refer is the mark they punction on the blade recazo: the crucifix.
I don't think i assimilate the sugestion that this sword is Caribbean ... or Spanish colonial, or the like; much less a rapier .
I am totally convinced that this sword is Peninsular; either Spanish or Portuguese ... or both; like a XVII century Spanish blade with a XVIII century Portuguese hilt ... for instance .
I have just checked the digital copy of a catalogue published to cover the Ornamental Art Exhibition held in the Lisbon Academy of Fine Arts in 1882. There were four swords with the inscription MIN SINAL HES ... all (syntomaticaly) with the same spelling, and all dated by the catalogue author as being from the XVII century. And, two amazing things: one of them was a schiavona sword and another, a cup hilted one, had the marks of famous Alonso Sahagun on the blade forte.
Except for the schiavona, the other three were quoted to have a crucifix on both sides of the recazo.
I agree with Manolo that the blade shape of 'bulk' cup hilt battle swords was the dos mesas (two convex faces cross-section); i have one myself and also find one pictured and described in a book i have. But i guess this doesn't eliminate other shapes, does it? I eventually have a similarly fullered specimen in the same book, precisely with the MIN SINAL HES motto ... and in the same lettering as my example; and also dated XVII century, although i can't guarantee the author's rigour; it belongs to his own collection.
... And, Manolo, i don't think the blade is too heavy for the pommel size . Remember the blade is fullered and of short length; the point of balance is 8 cms away from the guard. What do you think?
Concerning the dimension of the rumpe puntas (quebra pontas) Jim, i see plenty like this one, as still being within the 'norm'; but here between us two, i think such implement was more on the fantasy side, rather than an operational device .
My best wishes to everyone ... and thanks a lot for your participation.
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 21st October 2009, 01:48 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Meet the crucifix used by Pedro Hernandez.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 21st October 2009, 03:35 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA


Hi Nando, I forgot to take into consideration the weight of its hefty cup guard, it should help the pommel maintain the balance.
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[fernando]

Old 21st October 2009, 09:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Superb research work Fernando! and thank you for sharing the progression of your work with observations, thoughts and details. This is very much textbook in pursuing the identification of weapons and learning the history as well, and truly the joy of them as they tell us thier stories.

The fact that these have the cuphilt feature simply reflects the traditionalism inherent in Portuguese and Spanish swords, much favored by the brilliant swordsmen who wielded them. I agree that the rompepuntas feature is indeed vestigial, or reflecting the presumed purpose on the earlier cuphilts. I think it is simply a more finished appearance rather than practical purpose such as catching blade points.

With the cuphilt rapiers of the 17th century remaining in use for so long, and these arming or military versions coming into use in the early 18th, it does not seem surprising that ambitious assessments for 17th century are made for them. I am inclined to agree for the Peninsular identity for this 'copos de tigela' and it is interesting to see that, as you have noted, the inscription seems to correspond to this 'double beamed' crucifix cross. With that it seems that this seems to suggest a 'type' of blade imbued with this talismanic element. Interestingly blades made in Solingen seem to have spurious markings employed for appeal to certain markets, i.e. the well known ANDREA FERARA blades, primarily found on Scottish baskethilt type broadsword blades; the SAHAGUM (N) blades, which seem prevalent on the Continent; and even in degree the true rapier form blades marked with inscriptions presumed Aiala et al. (JESUS MARIA) which were produced it seems even into the 18th century (these are not as clearly determined).
We have generally held for some time that the hexagonal (dos mesas) military blades with the ' no me saques sin razon/ no me envaines sin honor' motto, are most likely Solingen produced and intended for colonial consumption, being sent to New Spain in huge volume. These blades seem to correspond somewhat concurrently in the placement and style of thier inscription.

As Manolo has noted, the grip style seems to favor remounts in the colonial sphere, throughout the 'Main' and to the Phillipines.

I think the use of the cross or crucifix, is much like that of the cross and orb, used with mottos, inscriptions and invocations as talismanic enhancement, with particular devices or forms often associated with certain makers as they appear along with marked work by that maker. They are not makers marks in themselves, as you have well surmised.

Again, I really enjoy the teamwork and discussion really sharing ideas and observations in learning more on these weapons. While I've been on these trails for more years than I care to reveal, I'm still trying to learn, and I always encourage those out there reading to come in with us! One never knows where the vital clue may be found!!

All best regards,
Ji.

[fernando]

Old 26th October 2009, 07:49 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico


I don't know if I understood well, but on the contrary, the wide central fuller 'a dos mesas' in the first two thirds of the blade is common on the spanish military swords from the 18th Century, just see this:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf
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The number of mesas is the number of 'facets' a blade has in one side of the blade, not counting the fuller. So, the flat diamond shaped blade has two (dos) mesas in one side, and a flat hexagon has tres (three) mesas. Usually, a rapier has a short fuller, and when it ends, you can count the number of mesas. There are flate hexagonal blades without fuller, and they are also tres mesas. But I personally believe this sword from Fernando is technically not a rapier under spanish terms, but a transition form, since it is not a civilian weapon, and the widht and form of the blade does not correspond to a rapier, since is too broad in the beginning (as a good military sword from the period) and very 'triangular' and pointy. I don't think those quillons were only vestigial. They were used also in cup hilted rapiers, and very large, due the needs imposed by the fencing techniques. In this case, the quillons are shorter but I don't think useless.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fernando]

Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM
Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hi Gonzalo,
Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort.

Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added.

I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers.
The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords.

The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation.

The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts.

All the best Gonzalo!
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico


You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you.
My best regards

Gonzalo
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[fernando]

Old 28th October 2009, 07:46 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


At least i could have the crucifix mark recognized, if still not (yet) identified.
A reputed Catalunian arms dealer has already sold two swords with this mark; both cup hilted and with the same blade inscription. He doesn't know however its origin, although his guess goes for the German provenance.
This is a reasonable guess; zillions of blades were imported from Germany into the peninsula, in a major scale to Spain, in the context. It is also more reasonable to think that blade inscriptions like the one in my example, would be made by German smiths; they were known to fancy writing such phrases in spanish, but couldn't avoid the wrong spellings. I guess there are three errors in the phrase " Min Sinal Hes el Santissimo Crucificio "; and i don't think the reason is that at the time, the orthography of these words was different.

Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 29th October 2009, 03:48 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

No problem at all Gonzalo In the text of my ramblings and sometimes my choice of words could be better.

Fernando, as we have found over time, and as you have noted, these blades seem likely Solingen produced products for Spain and Portugal during the 18th century. The broad lettering with these mottos, often misspelled, and the crosses or various marks suggest that much as many of the products, certain blades and markings were meant for certain markets. It seems that for some reason, the examples marked 'SAHAGUM' are often spelled 'SAHAGUN", and these from what I recall, often ended up in the Continent, although I have seen examples Spanish Colonial. I have seen blades with this name in broad lettering with different spellings on either side.
Clearly these are German commercial products as noted.

With this being the case, it would seem the use of this style crucifix cross was intended to appeal to the market(s) for these blades, rather than being associated with a specific unit or group using these swords.

With my personal affection for Spanish/Portuguese colonial weapons, and profound weakness for cuphilts, you gotta know I think this is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 28th March 2011, 08:51 PM

Posted by:
napoleon
Member

Join Date: Jan 2011


hello all i was wondering if anyone knows anything about a rose and crown mark on a hunting sword blade.would this be english? regards napoleon
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[fernando]

Old 30th March 2011, 03:25 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hello and welcome to the forum,
Could you possible show a picture of the stamp?
I am not very good with European stamps, but there are other who are, and they may be able to help you.
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[fernando]

Old 15th April 2011, 07:52 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Not being a collector of weapons, but of edged tools, in particular the billhook, I can give some background to this from a different perspective. Early edge tools were made by the individual smith, for local use, and were probably never marked, other than possible decorative or symbolic markings - usually stamped with chisels and serrated gouges.

If the smith was one of a group, or had a wider market, then some form of idenification was used - usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised.

In the UK iron and steel tools were often marked in the late 18th century and early 19th with three individual letter stamps - forename, surname and location of the smith. Later, c 1830 - 1850, individual word stamps were used, e.g. JOHN, FUSSELL, MELLS - sometimes stamped upside down, or in the wrong order. Edge tool makers were often also cutlers in the larger centres such as Sheffield, and adopted the trade or guild marks on their edge tools as well..

By 1850 machine cut stamps were being used which allowed all the information to be stamped on in one go... Most edge tool makers also used some form of trademark to denote the quality of their tools - the Crown was used by several as a mark of quality (e.g. by Gilpin, Brades and Swift) probably a reference to best Crown Steel as used by scythe and sickle makers.

A simple recognisable mark was of great advantage in a time when much of the population was illiterate - so many larger European edge tool works also used them, athough in France the vast majority just used a name and town, e.g. ALEXIS A ORLEANS....

Tools made and used in the centre, often Alpine, European countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Italy and Hungary - often previously part of the Autsro-Hungarian Empire), often also have decorated blades - which are believed to be symbolic, e.g. to ward off eveil spirits...

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[fernando]

Old 15th April 2011, 07:55 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Italian edge tool makers marks (from Roncole e Pennati by Nani Monnelli)

http://www.ciao.it/Roncole_e_pennat...onelli__1720751

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[fernando]

Old 15th April 2011, 08:01 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Note in 15th century Germany the armourer was often also the edge tool maker.... The following illustration of Niclas Schweitzer (Nicolas the Swiss) who died 18 June 1504.

He was an inmate in an almshouse for retired craftsmen in Nuremberg Germany; one of two that each took 12 brothers. The first set up my Konrad Mendel in 1388, the second by Matthew Landauer in 1511. From 1425 until 1806 each brother had his portrait entered into the house-book, often with a portrayal of his craft.

Note the axe and cleaver to the right of his shop window, the spade at the left and the spears in the centre..

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[fernando]

Old 15th April 2011, 04:07 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal



Originally Posted by Billman
... usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised ... (Quote)


Like in this Portuguese example?



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[fernando]

Old 15th April 2011, 10:19 PM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010


Yes, although in this case it seems to be decorative rather than for identification (of course it could be both).... Now for the $64,000 question - tool or weapon?? To me it is a very nice early example of a hedging bill - this type is common throughout Europe - I have examples from Wales and France, but they are also found in Spain, Italy and Croatia...

Known in Portugal as a foice, in Spain as a roçadora, in France as a croissant (also a coujard) and in Croatia as a rankun - the shape of the blade varies from region to region, but the back hook to push loose branches back into the hedge is common to all types...

A few illustrations....

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[fernando]

PAGE 7 MISSING. POSTS #181 TO #210


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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2011, 04:06 PM #211

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Good addition Denis .
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2011, 01:32 PM #201

Psted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury


Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094
I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P.
Would be much obliged for any ideas !

.. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ?


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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2011, 05:55 AM #213

Posted by:
TVV
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16
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[fernando]

Old 29th November 2011, 01:43 AM #214

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Originally Posted by fernando
This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094
I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P.
Would be much obliged for any ideas !

.. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? (Quote)


.
Thank you for adding this Fernando and I appreciate its being added here for the benefit of our study of markings. As has been indicated by Michael in the original thread it would seem most likely that this would be from the workshops of Peter Pogl in Thorl, early 16th century. He was armourer for the Emperor Maximilian. In Italy a majescule P surmounted by a crown in known 16th century, very much the period for these gisarmes.
.

[fernando]

Old 29th November 2011, 02:00 AM #215

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Originally Posted by TVV
To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 (Quote)


Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread.
The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them.
This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure.

These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name.
.

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Old 30th November 2011, 12:51 AM #216

Posted by:
TVV
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread.
The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them.
This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure.

These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. (Quote)


Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus?

Teodor
.

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Old 30th November 2011, 01:49 AM #217

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Originally Posted by TVV
Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus?

Teodor (Quote)



Hi Teodor,
As far as I know there were numerous blades from Caucasian areas and Solingen issued as blanks and were often marked by vendors, importers etc. in trade centers as received and mounted. The very incongruent arrangement of the lettering suggests of course somewhat inept copying of earlier similarly fullered blades from East Europe with the dual Genoa marks. These blades might have entered at many points into the Red Sea trade sphere, and could have been passed around for generations much as kaskara blades and takouba blades were.

All the best,
Jim
,

[fernando]

Old 30th November 2011, 08:47 AM #218

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,409

Jim,

Interestingly enough Marian Glosek "Miecze srodkowoueropejskie X-XV w. was mentioned by Berber Dagger in a swap forum.

I thumbed through the book with a little more interest after this post surfaced again and found within the pages and pages and pages of trade marks from the X-XV centuries, of real interest is the back to back cresents like the Gurda marks except that the 'teeth' are not present....it is seen in figure 53.

My mind wanders to fanciful places sometimes but perhaps it is an earlier EU guild mark that developed to what it is with the teeth.

Gav
,

[fernando]

Old 1st December 2011, 03:05 AM #219

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Thanks so much for the input Gav, and well placed thoughts on the development of these marks, which seem to be shrouded in mystery as to thier actual origin and development though North Italy seems the most accepted region. These also occur in varied configurations in many Italian blades, most of the arcs do seem to be dentated however.
Good to temporally travel to fanciful places....often there lurk the answers !

All the best,
Jim
.

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Old 9th December 2011, 02:16 AM #220

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


The arm extending from the cloud brandishing a sword is a decorative device often seen on blades of 17th and 18th c. and came up in a concurrent thread (diamond design in hilt) while discussing certain similarities in motif corresponding to arcane symbolism. The tarot art showing the 'wands' (suit of clubs) has an arms extending in this manner with a wand.

Any other examples of this arm and sword device and thoughts on what it might represent.....associations to tarot type symbolism?
.

[fernando]

Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum.
The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic.

While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly.

The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together.
The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker.
.

[fernando]

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany
Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972
CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886)
CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921)
CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972)
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Old 7th April 2012, 05:23 PM #224

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Maker Marks: Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company
Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company, Solingen Germany (commonly referred to as WKC) changed their company name at least three times between 1883 and 1970
WEYERSBURG, KIRSCHBAUM & COMPAGNIE (1883-1930)
WKC STAHL-UND EISENWARENFABRIK (1930 - 1950)
WKC STAHL-METELLWARENFABRIKHANSKOLPING (1950 - 1970)
.

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Old 7th April 2012, 06:25 PM #225

Posted by:
DaveA
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
Examples of blade-maker marks
Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
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Old 7th April 2012, 06:30 PM #226

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

P107, Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons
"The markings on a blade made by Johannes Wundes (1560-1620)..
King's head
Imperial orb
Passau wolf
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pril 2012, 06:40 PM #227

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Ibrahiim for your kind words toward this thread which truly has had great input over the years, though could certainly use a great deal more!
I'm glad it gets the traffic it does regardless, and always hope the contributions which have been placed here have been found useful by other researchers.

Regarding the Shotley Bridge Sword Co., this is quite a complex topic, and actually begins early in the 17th century with German sword cutlers who had come to Hounslow Heath mostly from Solingen. Some cutlers from Birmingham are known to have joined them there, but by about 1660s most of the Solingen makers had returned to Solingen. It seems only a few examples are known marked with Hounslow lettered in the inscriptions, and there are a number of examples of swords marked with the 'Passau wolf' but no other markings associated. The famed maker Peter Munsten as well as Johannes Kindt (later John Kennett) of course marked and inscribed blades accordingly. Munsten is better known for his cabalistic images on blades, but by 1660s returned to Solingen (according to Aylward, 1945).

By around 1687 Hermann Mohll and some of the descendants of the Hounslow workers, along with newly immigrated Solingen makers formed a sword making center at Shotley Bridge in County Durham on the Derwent River. By 1690 blades from Shotley Bridge were being sold at a warehouse in London, but the enterprise was temporarily ceased when Hermann Mohll got in trouble with importing German blades ironically, and closing down sometime on or before 1703. Mohll reopened in 1716 (as Hermann Mohll & Son) and the business moved to Birmingham around 1832 from Shotley Bridge (the forerunner of Robert Mole, the famed maker who later was acquired by Wilkinson).

There is some evidence or suggestion of crossed swords being used by the firm but I have seen no evidence of examples of blades with such mark.
There are walloon hilt swords with blades marked in the fullers SHOTLEY BRIDGE from the time of the Monmouth Rebellion and Marlborough Campaigns but no specific symbolic markings I am aware of.

This is an excellent question Ibrahiim, and I hope the data I have compiled is of some use explaining more of what these blades may have had on them. There is considerable material on these German swordsmiths in England in both Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, along with the somewhat irrelevant mystery of the Hollow Sword Co. which seems to have been more a real estate venture than sword enterprise.

All best regards,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim, I bumped into a peculiar reference in the Met Museum of Art archives about hollow swords and it appears that swords were actually made by "The Hollow Sword Blade Company" with a hollow blade filled with mercury so that the weight on thrusting was transferred down the blade to the tip therefor giving extra weight to the momentum...

To source this reference simply tap into web search Swords From The Dresden Armoury from which I Quote "One learns, for example, of the Hollow Sword Blade Company which was chartered for the professed purpose of making hollow swords with running mercury inclosed to gravitate to the point when a blow was struck and so increase the weight and momentum of the stroke". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 10th April 2012, 03:48 AM #228

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c.

This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors.

The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut.
They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept.

In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade.
While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues.

To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered.

Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!!

All the very best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

pril 2012, 03:32 PM #229

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c.

This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors.

The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut.
They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept.

In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade.
While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues.

To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered.

Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!!

All the very best,
Jim (Quote)
Salaams Jim,
Thanks for that. I have dug up some interesting stuff on this subject and would like to park it here for reference please. Initially I thought that the blades part was some fanciful cover plan for the estates company but it seems they had a design to fill blades with mercury ... but when they tried it it apparently wasn't feasible...

- The Hollow Sword Blades Company ~ was set up in England in 1691 to make sword blades. In 1703 the company purchased some of the Irish estates forfeited under the Williamite settlement in counties Mayo, Sligo, Galway, and Roscommon. They also bought the forfeited estates of the Earl of Clancarty in counties Cork and Kerry and of Sir Patrick Trant in counties Kerry, Limerick, Kildare, Dublin, King and Queen's counties (Offaly and Laois). Further lands in counties Limerick, Tipperary, Cork and other counties, formerly the estate of James II were also purchased, also part of the estate of Lord Cahir in county Tipperary. In June 1703 the company bought a large estate in county Cork, confiscated from a number of attainted persons and other lands in counties Waterford and Clare. However within about 10 years the company had sold most of its Irish estates. Francis Edwards, a London merchant, was one of the main purchasers.

SEPTEMBER 28th
On this day in history in 1720, the South Sea Bubble finally burst.
The South Sea Bubble was an economic phenomenon which saw intense speculation in company shares and brought ruin to many private investors.
In 1711, the earl of Oxford and others formed a company, known as The South Sea Company, to trade with Spanish colonies in South America. Britain was at war with Spain at the time but, it was hoped that soon the war would be over, and profitable trading could begin. The war ended in 1713, but the peace treaty was not favourable to British trade, only allowing one voyage a year to the colonies. The company made its first expedition in 1717 and made moderate profits, but the directors of the company had guaranteed a dividend of at least 6% per annum, and therefore the company was losing money.
The directors tried to maintain confidence in the company by asking King George I to become its governor, and then formulated an ingenious scheme to boost public confidence in their enterprise. They proposed the takeover of the National Debt. Holders of government stock would be offered shares in the South Sea Company in exchange for their bonds, and the South Sea Company would become the sole government creditor and banker. This scheme was readily accepted by Parliament and public confidence in the company was restored.
Investors believed that this company must be making vast profits in order to promote this scheme. In fact, the company was only exchanging its own paper shares for paper government bonds. The value of the company’s shares rocketed, and by the end of 1719, had reached a value of £1,000 for each £100 share. Many other companies sprang up in the wake of this seemingly lucrative enterprise. There was a company to ‘fix quicksilver and make it as soft and malleable as lead’. There was a company ‘to insure marriages against divorce’ and one ‘for the planting of mulberry trees and breeding silk-worms in Chelsea Park’. One company was formed ‘for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage but no one to know what it is’. The formation of companies to undertake fatuous schemes was not new at that time. The South Sea Company’s bankers were The Hollow Sword Blade Company, a corporation formed to produce hollow sword blades, but which had found that difficult or impossible, and had branched out into banking, issuing bank notes with designs of sword blades.
In an attempt to reduce the competition for speculators’ money, the South Sea Company issued writs against many of these bogus companies. The courts ruled that many of these companies were indeed operating illegally, and added that the South Sea Company itself was not above suspicion. Shares in the company dropped at once. The directors attempted to allay disquiet by raising dividends but investors asked where the money was coming from, and stock prices fell further. The company tried to issue more stock to raise money to keep the business going but prices fell again. In September 1720, the directors called a shareholders’ meeting to try to restore confidence but prices fell further. On 24th September 1720, The Hollow Sword Blade Company, closed down, leaving the company with no funds and no business. On 28th September 1720, the directors announced that the company was to cease trading.
A subsequent investigation revealed that the whole scheme had been operating illegally. The directors had misappropriated funds for their own purposes and had made vast profits on speculation. They had bribed the king’s mistresses to persuade him to accept the governorship of the company. Furthermore they had deliberately misled the public and the government as to the true value of the company. Parliament subsequently passed The Bubble Act which forbad the setting up of a company without a Royal Charter.

As opposed to Hollow Grinding~
Blade cross-sections for typical grinds
1. Hollow grind-a knife blade which has been ground to create a characteristic concave, beveled cutting edge along. This is characteristic of straight razors, used for shaving, and yields a very sharp but weak edge which requires stropping for maintenance. Also used on ice skating blades.
2. Flat grind—The blade tapers all the way from the spine to the edge from both sides. A lot of metal is removed from the blade and is thus more difficult to grind, one factor that limits its commercial use. It sacrifices edge durability in favor of more sharpness. The Finnish puukko is an example of a flat ground knife. A true, flat ground knife having only a single bevel is somewhat of a rarity.
3. Sabre grind—Similar to a flat grind blade except that the bevel starts at about the middle of the blade, not the spine. Also named "Scandinavian Grind", it produces a more lasting edge at the expense of some cutting ability and is typical of kitchen knives. Also sometimes referred to as a "V Grind", made with strength in mind and found on tactical and military knives.
4. Chisel grind—As on a chisel, only one side is ground (often at an edge angle of about 20 – 30°); the other remains flat. As many Japanese culinary knives tend to be chisel ground they are often sharper than a typical double bevelled Western culinary knife. (A chisel grind has only a single edge angle. If a sabre grind blade has the same edge angle as a chisel grind, it still has two edges and thus has twice the included angle.) Knives which are chisel ground come in left and right-handed varieties, depending upon which side is ground.
Japanese knives feature subtle variations on the chisel grind: firstly, the back side of the blade is often concave, to reduce drag and adhesion so the food separates more cleanly; this feature is known as urasuki.[2] Secondly, the kanisaki deba, used for cutting crab and other shellfish, has the grind on the opposite side (left side angled for right-handed use), so that the meat is not cut when chopping the shell.[3]
5. Double bevel or compound bevel—A back bevel, similar to a sabre or flat grind, is put on the blade behind the edge bevel (the bevel which is the foremost cutting surface). This back bevel keeps the section of blade behind the edge thinner which improves cutting ability. Being less acute at the edge than a single bevel, sharpness is sacrificed for resilience: such a grind is much less prone to chipping or rolling than a single bevel blade. In practice, double bevels are common in a variety of edge angles and back bevel angles, and Western kitchen knives generally have a double bevel, with an edge angle of 20–22° (included angle of 40–44°).
6. Convex grind—Rather than tapering with straight lines to the edge, the taper is curved, though in the opposite manner to a hollow grind. Such a shape keeps a lot of metal behind the edge making for a stronger edge while still allowing a good degree of sharpness. This grind can be used on axes and is sometimes called an axe grind. As the angle of the taper is constantly changing this type of grind requires some degree of skill to reproduce on a flat stone. Convex blades usually need to be made from thicker stock than other blades. This is also known as 'hamaguriba' in japanese kitchen knives, both single and double beveled. Hamaguriba means "clam shaped edge".[1]
It is possible to combine grinds or produce other variations. For example, some blades may be flat ground for much of the blade but be convex ground towards the edge.

Lastly a fragment from;

STATISTICAL AND SOCIAL INQUIRY SOCIETY
OF IRELAND
VARIED ORIGINS OF THE IRISH PEOPLE.
By T. U. SADLEIR.
[Read on Friday, 21st April, 1933.]

Quote" Quite a number of the Cromwellian grantees
did not remain in Ireland, some returning to England in the disturbances
of 1688 and others settling in Jamaica or Barbadoes.
Many of their holdings, as well as a good many estates forfeited in the Williamite confiscations were bought up by a land jobbing company known as the Hollow Sword Blade Company. This corporation was originally engaged in the manufacture of sword blades, hollowed out to contain a quantity of mercury, which, falling to the inside of the point at every blow gave added force to the stroke". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 11th April 2012, 04:54 AM #230

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Absolutely brilliant research Ibrahiim!!! Now thats what Im talkin' about!

The mysterious (better described as devious) Hollow Sword Blade Co. was written about in some degree by J.D.Aylward in 1948 and in 1962. Apparantly the fanciful notion of these mercury filled blades (as described in an 1859 journal entry) was noted in analogy in a poem by Henry More in 1647 describing 'running quicksilver' in the back of a sword. It seems that from here the idea of increasing impetus in thrust or cut with either this unlikely channeled liquid metal or moving weight sliding on a rod entered popular culture via Sir Walter Scott, and subsequent authors.

These concepts reappeared in the imaginations of 19th century writers, especially in America with the Bowie knife phenomenon and the novel "The Iron Mistress" which many people perceived as factual history of Bowie's knife.

The 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' name I believe has become loosely associated to the enterprises at Hounslow Heath in the early to latter mid 17th century and the German smiths who worked there. The shops there were largely closed by the late 1660s with most of the makers leaving.
I think what is most puzzling is that during the English civil wars and later in conflicts in Ireland there are references to a 'Hollow Sword Co.' which made swords for all sides, and often received payment in lieu of currency with forfeited estates in Ireland. After 1700 they began realizing profits by selling off these estates.

Yet other references claim that the Hollow Sword Blade Company was started around 1690, and another reference describes the firm being started by Hermann Mohll nearly Shotley Bridge (near Newcastle). Mohll ran afoul of the law in 1703 when he was caught bringing in illegally imported German blades. These were probably the 'hollow ground' blades favored for the smallswords becoming popular, which were already partially complete and finished there at Shotley Bridge. It would seem quite possible that the term may have been misperceived and perhaps interpolated with the notions of mercury filled channeled blades and sensationalized by contemporaries writing for effect.

It seems further that the financial ventures undertaken under this unusual name must have derived from the holdings of these swordmaking enterprises in the form of these confiscated Irish estates, and assembled under the Hollow Sword Blade Co. name. Hermann Mohll, who was in the one instance noted as the founder, continued operating after his troubles in 1703 as Hermann Mohll & Son while the Hollow Sword Blade Co. continued as such until it dissolved in 1720. This suggests to me that the firm begun by Mohll (the ancestor of the well known Robert Mole firm of Birmingham, England eventually acquired by Wilkinson) was separate from the Hollow Blade Co.

While of course not directly associated with the theme of this thread on markings, it is interesting history that has to do with the British blademaking ancestry and Solingen makers. Just as with our study of the fascinating history of makers marks, this is the lore of edged weapons which gives them such fantastic dimension.

All the very best,]
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 25th May 2012, 05:14 PM #231

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID.

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597


Any help will be much welcome.

.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 02:10 AM #232

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Fernando, I cannot help my curiosity on these marks but I cannot make out what the forte mark is since it is partly obscured or worn away, in any case seems incomplete.
The undulating line it seems was well explained by Jasper in the other thread showing the latteen wavy line on medieval blade, noting its Christian symbolism .

I am wondering if it is possible that a mark like this on a rapier could perhaps allude to the fabled flamberge or wavy blades romanticized in some medieval swords and later rapiers as well. While there is some conflict in terminology with these blades termed flammard and flambard and the flamberge name for the sword of Renaud (It. Rinaldo), it does seem symbolically important for 'heroic' or powerful swords. I would admit this is perhaps a fanciful suggestion, but still it seemed worthy of note in addition to the well placed note by Jasper, with consideration to both.

Naturally I would hope others might have seen this type mark on other blades, or might offer thier views.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:07 AM #233


Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by fernando
I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID. (Quote)

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597

Any help will be much welcome. (Quote)

.
Salaams fernando. I have read the supporting thread ( and about 10 hours of background research into Spanish swords though I have only scraped the surface so far ~it is a vast subject) As well as our own resource I note for forum a couple of back up introductory pieces which will help break the ice for newcomers to the style viz;

http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascani...rara_swords.pdf
http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/jineta-sword.htm
gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/download/204/206

I include here a fascinating metalurgical research project done on Spanish blades viz;
http://csic.academia.edu/MarcGener/...d_rapier_blades

I note that your blade mark is not amongst the 90 plus marks in your earlier thread on Spanish blade marks .. could it be an old Arabic stamp ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:05 PM #234

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding entries Ibrahiim! especially Marc's work on the metallurgy of many of these blades. The presence of Muslim swordsmiths in Spain is well established in medieval times and of course the jineta weapons as well. The diffusion between the processes and techniques between them and the Frankish smiths is also well known.
While there may be a degree of connection developmentally it is not as far as I know clearly defined other than obvious influences being exchanged.
The power of Solingens ever increasing production by the 17th and 18th century had superceded that of Toledo and blades were produced for the markets of Spain and Portugal as well as so many others.

Although these blades were characteristically marked with inscriptions, names and marks to appeal to these markets, I am not sure of any Islamic mark or inscription of earlier Spanish makers of those earlier periods which might have carried forth into this later context.

It is known however, that many earlier heroic and romanticized notions from European and perhaps even earlier Frankish period/Viking periods were often included on blades along with these otherwise 'tailored' markings.

Having noted that, in further consideration of the 'wavy' blade idea to allude to fabled swords in chivalry, I completely forgot about Lee Jones important work on medieval blades "The Serpent in the Sword" . In this discussion on metallurgy of early medieval blades, he notes the cite from Paul DuChaillu (1889, "The Viking Age") where Skeggi instructs Kormak on the use of his sword Skofnung; "...if thou comest to the fighting place, sit alone and draw it. Hold up the blade and blow on it, then a small snake will creep from under the guard". These words metaphorically are meant to remind him to respect the sword and control his impulsiveness.

Perhaps this perception seen inlaid on medieval blades such as shown by Jasper of the 13th c. example may have been carried forth in marks used along with others which survived as well, such as the crosses, cross and orb and others. Again admittedly speculative, but worthy of consideration.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:12 PM #235

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Thanks for your input Jim.
You are right in that the mark in the forte is somehow incomplete. However rather than worn by use, it was in fact a job negleted by its author; actualy the (same) mark on the other side is in a much worse condition.
The guy that apllied these marks wasn't minimally worried with their visibility. This is (also) why i think this not a maker's mark but the "punzon" of an inspector; while a displicent inspector or/and a much worn tool. But obviously this is my speculation; not the slightest evidence.
The undulating line is not that rare. I have already seen it (at least) in sword loose blade i saw once for sale, which was actualy acquired by a guy i know.
I just don't know if such one also had that V like simbol in its end. I have gone through my books looking for it, as i am sure i saw this symbol times before.
Maybe on of these days ...
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 08:57 PM #236

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that.
.

[fernando]

Old 28th May 2012, 06:16 PM #237

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by fernando
Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that. (Quote)

Salaams fernando ~ Yes I had my doubts when I saw the & in the final circle of the stamp which is as you point out Latin(Et = & = and) and would agree that it is either a Spanish or German stamp. (Solingen did a lot of copying and vica versa.) Regarding the snake insignia etched on swords there is an interesting link on Omani Sayf; markings for ID by Ilyiad on the Ethnographic forum which is interesting.
In addition it carries the running wolf copied stamp. In fact on the subject of the running woolf there are two forms;
1. The Passau of Germany(Solingen) and
2. The Perrillo of Spain (Toledo)

Whilst the former tends to be a running woolf the latter appears as a prancing or rearing dog. Good sword stamps appear copied onto Arabian swords but it is a puzzle since no one has defined from which area the stamp was copied..

Was it the German or Spanish stamp copied by middle eastern swordsmiths..?

On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 29th May 2012, 04:54 PM #238

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent observations as always Ibrahiim!
Thank you for the reference to the 'rocker' type punches on the Omani blade which indeed seem to correspond to the snake/serpent type mark being discussed. This does seem to have a rather mechanical stylized similarity to the 13th century latteen inlaid mark presented by Cornelistromp on another thread, and was used by medieval swordsmiths on thier blades presumably in German shops. It is always of course compelling evidence that these early blades were seen in Arab/North African/East African trade contexts and the use of the images carried forth in local work.

While the perillo (=little dog) image attributed to Julian del Rey in Spain does seem to have had similar impact on some native markings in North African context (Briggs, 1965), it does not seem to have been duplicated in the rest of Europe to the best of my knowledge. The 'running wolf of Passau' of course was somewhat widely duplicated in vast variation in Europe as well as the Caucusus, North Africa and probably Arabia in some degree which remains unclear.

It seems the ampersand (&) symbol did also appear in some markings and print but as far as I know this device was not widely used until more recent times on blades. It would be interesting to look further into that aspect.

All the best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 29th May 2012, 06:31 PM #239

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

My perspective of the mark on the forte not looking Arabic script was not the suggested & but the geometric incomplete figure rright below, by (me) being originaly influenced by the letter T of Toledo. The symbol above, which i can understand that Ibrahiim sees it like a &, would have been for me some kind of crown ... again influenced by traditional mark fashions. However for as much as it looks like the ampersand, i could never imagine such figure stamped in XVII century swords.
But of course this could also be a German (Solingen) blade, mounted with a Spanish (not to say Portuguese) hilt.
I am convinced that the localizing of the "snake symbol" of the blade would help to decipher the riddle.
The symbol on Ilyad's saif would be a distinct thing. Its zig-zag lines are angulated, not waving, which makes it a different attitude.
As quoted by Jim, while the Passau wolf has been copied all over, the perrillo of Julian del Rey did not reach so large universe. Furthermore, each of them has a rather different basis; while the Passau wolf, despite its several variations, appears to be an unequivocal zoomorphical specimen, the perrillo gives place to determined speculation. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, in his work on Julian del Rey, while suggesting that:
A- the guy was a morillo (Moor), a Jineta sword smith who worked for Boabdil, was converted to christianism by the Catholic Kings after the take over of Granada, thus receiving the last name of del Rey (of the King, or King's),
B -presents some doubts on the zoomorphic figure being a dog or a lion.
The figure of a lion was (and still is) an heraldic symbol present in several Spanish cities and could have well been the quality inspection mark of Zaragoza, where Julian del Rey worked, as reminded in Palomar's nomina.
It is also suggested that Palomar might have adopted a position for the animal, in his drawing, not exactly as it should appear.
On the other hand Edouard de Beaumont connects the perrilo in the blade of a jineta present in the National Paris Library to Julian del Rey while in his Granadine personality, giving logic to the later appearance of the dog in Julian's swords.
To complicate (even more) the things, i here attach one more (of other) mark/s used by Julian del Rey, this one present in sword kept at the Musée de l'Armée in Paris.
.

[fernando]

Old 30th May 2012, 07:17 AM #240

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Salaams Jim and Fernando ~ This has been a vertical learning curve for me but an essential lesson in bringing the important area of Spanish, Italian, German and indeed Scottish blades into focus.
I have a work in progress on Portuguese weapons owned by me(20 years ago) but now with new owners but have been promised photographs ... In the old days there were quite a few Rapiers in the Oman left over from pre 1650 vintage days.
Even though I twist the stamp detail around still I cannot see Toledo and I still think the ampersand & in a circle is perhaps the strap from a horn viz;

~ On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks?

It may, however, be something totally different.

Thank you for your replies.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 4th June 2012, 09:42 PM #241

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end.
The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following:
It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword.
As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present.
This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth.
Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol.
Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately .

.

[fernando]

Old 4th June 2012, 10:14 PM #242

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Another sword i remembered having seen at a neighbour collector, with the snake and its mouth ... and other traditional symbols

(missing attachments)

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[fernando]

Old 18th June 2012, 11:38 AM #243

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007


Lightbulb * Dime el * Aterro *
A needed addition....perhaps some light will come.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15707

Gav
.

[fernando]

Old 18th June 2012, 02:18 PM #244

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany -
the center of 15th and 16th
century gunmaking


Hi 'Nando,

The wavy serpent-shaped ornament, as I have often pointed out, is a very old European decorative element which was used from ancient times thru the Gothic, Renaissance and Early Baroque periods.

It shows up especially (though not exclusively) on almost all kinds of ironworks, including early- to mid-16th century barrels which were symbolically seen as the incarnation of a fire throwing monster such as a dragon or serpent. Some muzzles of barrels of that Renaissance period were even shaped as fire-spitting zoomorphic animals.

These facts kept in mind, it is in my opinion impossible to assign a stylized serpent ornament on a blade to a certain maker or center of production, although they were mostly employed in North Italian and South German regions.
This is NOT a mark but as you say just a traditional symbol, an ornament; that's all there is to it.

Some illustrations:

From top:

- an antenna rapier, late 16th c., from the Collection of the Princes of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vaduz (1 image)

- a fish-tail rapier, late 16th c., from Schloss Ambras (2 images)

- a Landsknecht's saber, South German, ca. 1540 (2)

- muzzles of three Nuremberg arquebus barrels, ca. 1530, especially the one on top (1)

- detail of a Nuremberg arquebus barrel dated 1539 (2)

- detail of another Nuremberg barrel, ca. 1550

- detail of a mid-16th c. igniting iron (1)

- detail of the muzzle of an arquebus, ca. 1530, Schloss Heidecksburg (1)

- detail of the staghorn inlaid tiller of a crossbow, ca. 1520's, Schloss Heidecksburg (1)

- detail of an engraved serpent amidst foliage, on a Nuremberg cranequin, dated 1545 (1)



Best,
Michl

(missing attachments)
.

[fernando]

#245

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding entries guys!
Fernando thank you for the update on the serpent motif on that cuphilt and for sharing the outcome of suggestions from the contacts you note. It does seem a quite viable possibility that these heraldic associations might well come into play in some manner when a swordsmith selected motif or designs to place in his blades. We have of course long established that many otherwise generally used devices have been placed on blades in talismanic or magical sense along with makers marks. It does seem also well known that certain symbols or devices which allude to particular political or ruling factions may be the source for some markings, and these 'coded' symbols are well known in Italy and many others. The Jacobites in Scotland used certain symbols in thier openwork and piercing on baskethilts in many cases, but the subject remains largely unresearched.

I think Jasper's notes on the use of the serpent or dragon in medieval blades is well placed as not only a Christian related symbol, but was established as a symbol of power in the warriors sense from the times of the Vikings. The outstanding article by Lee Jones, "The Serpent in the Blade" explains the perception of the pattern welding in the blades perceived as a snake or serpent, and via the sword itself as a symbol of strength. In the medieval period there was of course in Europe the well known Order of the Dragon, which may trace origins into ancient times with this creature used as a totem of military strength.

In the case of the last entry by Fernando showing the blade with multiple crossbars on the well known cross and orb as well as the undulating device with the 'V' mouth and dots or stars in the alternating curves, it seems this may be intended as talismanic or magical. The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. This device was later adopted by Solingen as they began producing spuriously marked blades representing Spanish forms. While these marks are perceived as religious in degree, they are essentially invocations calling amuletically for protection and strength. The serpent with its military connotations seems of course well placed in this context.

Regarding the use of undulating lines as well as alternating 's' marks in linear motif or in profiling segments of a weapon, it seems that these are often somewhat aesthetically chosen designs. However it must be considered that the possibility of subtle association or nuance may well have been at hand in the choice of the artisan fashioning or marking the blade.
In the case of firearms, naturally the often applied metaphor and colloquial reference to many guns referred to dragons with the fire breathing feature well noted.

The 'dime el aterro' blade added by Gav here is also intriguing. While the translation examination presents an interesting conundrum, I think it is important to note Fernando's earlier description of regulated blade lengths in Spain and Portugal as I believe he noted. This blade which is now mounted in a firangi is about 41" long, and would seem to correspond to the longer blades which exceeded the five span limitation. This then may explain its presence in this firangi in accord with Fernando's note that many of these 'outlaw' blades were apparantly exported (possibly after confiscation?) to India and other trade entrepots. I am inclined to believe that the blade is either a Solingen product or Italian (similar to many of thier blades) , however due to the seemingly corrupted or transliterated nature of the inscription perhaps the blade never even reached the markets in Spain or Portugal due to these restrictions.

Thank you again Fernando, Michael and Gav for adding these entries to this thread and adding to the archived material which I hope many will find useful as well as promoting ongoing research.

I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them.

All the very best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

#246

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany -
the center of 15th and 16th
century gunmaking


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Outstanding entries guys!
The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades.
I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them.
All the very best,
Jim (Quote)

Hi Jim,
Thank you so much once more! I feel more than rewarded by the feedback that my comprehensive archives can sometimes be of some use to some people.
As to the cross and orb mark, from all what I have gathered on early blades, it was mostly used in the South German and Austrian areas throughout the 16th c, mostly in the first half. Thus it is often found on Pasau and Munich blades, and it was also struck on a fine Messer, ca. 1500-20, from the Princely Collections of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vadz, that once was in my collection; photos attached.

For more on this fine specimen, plesse see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...0&page=12&pp=30,

posts # 360 and 361.

Interesting enough I have never noticed a cross and orb mark on any barrel or lock so it seems definitely to have been confined to blades.

Best,
Michael

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 29th June 2012, 09:05 PM #247

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking

In some instances, 16th c. artists were astoundingly exact in their depictions, including the representation of characteristic blade marks.

Attached please find a depiction of a cross-and-orb mark, together with a wavy serpent ornament, on the blade of a ca. 1540's Landsknecht saber, in a painting by Lucas Cranach the Younger, dated 1584, preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg.

Author's photos, 1995.
Please see also

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1713#post141713

Best,
Michael

(missing attachments)
.

[fernando]

Old 2nd November 2012, 03:26 PM #248
Posted by:
theswordcollector
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berlin

Originally Posted by Jeff D
Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff (Quote)

I have the same orb and Solingen cross with rose gold on my schiavone blade
with a running wolf with reminance of rose gold inlay also is this the same smith? I thought it might be copper or rose gold. I might give it a drop of nitric acid to find out.

(missing attachments)
.

[fernando]

Old 4th November 2012, 03:20 PM #249

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these.
,

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote)



Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke..

My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants?

It would be good to see a full blade please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2012, 06:18 PM #251

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

#252

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim ~ Thanks for your reply and it is further interesting that the Mamlukes were taken over by the Ottomans because of the Red Sea;
The Mamluki palace coffers were filled with booty, riches and gold from the throughput trade to the rest of Europe from China via the Mamluke Empire, thus, the importance of the Red Sea hub in the days before the Ottomans (Othmanli) struck. It was in fact the Portuguese on entering the Indian Ocean who closed the Red Sea to Chinese trade. Once that had been achieved the Mamluke Sultanate simply went bust. Since its army was essentially 100% mercenary (Mamluke essentially means mercenary/slave) the general collapse was fast. It was then that the Ottomans went for it. (I reccommend the amazing work on the Mamlukes by John Glubb Pasha).
Back to earth ~ The remarkable pictures posted by VANDOO at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14049 and others shows the extent to which these Red Sea weapons blades equate.. though this may only be coincidental...and in terms of the double edged Shiavona blades the resemblence is very close. What I mean is in comparison to the straight blades at #1 second picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...LACE+COLLECTION

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

#253

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, I have just entered a reply on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118 which is a fascinating thread By Jean-Marc S encompassing the little known world of Heraldry and Coats of Arms.(or perhaps the well known by a few). I suggested on that thread that it would be an excellent idea to persue that along the same lines that you have done with this vital informational encyclopedia on blade marks and include this note for your information...and by way of moderator support request this as a Forum idea.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 28th January 2013, 06:08 AM #254

Posred by.
Valjhun
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Thanks to Ibrahiim, who reminded me of this wonderfull thread, Im posting a Peter Munich marking from a karabela sword whom thread Ive opened recently. link: karabela with munich mark

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[fernando]

Old 28th January 2013, 11:32 AM #255

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

It would be a pity if members don't visit the " Classic Threads " thread, which is in a sticky position on the top of the front page:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118

... Such is the importance we give to themes like the one in question.

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[fernando]

Old 11th March 2014, 05:22 PM #256

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by fernando
It would be a pity if members don't visit the " Classic Threads " thread, which is in a sticky position on the top of the front page:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14460

... Such is the importance we give to themes like the one in question. (Quote)

I totally agree!!
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[fernando]

Old 19th March 2014, 03:26 PM #257

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Salaams All.. This strange sword has appeared from somewhere in Africa; I presume. But what it is I have no clue. Apologies in advance as the full sword picture failed to come out.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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[fernando]

Old 19th March 2014, 05:51 PM #258

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th
and 16th century gunmaking

Hi Ibrahiim,

Though this is not my field, I hope I can clarify your query.

There is a recent book in German by Jürg Meier: Vivat Hollandia - zur Geschichte der Schweizer in holländischen Diensten 1740-1795. Griffwaffen und Uniformen. 2008.

The author describes the use of both edged weapons and uniforms of Swiss soldiers serving for the Netherlands. Thus your sword with that inscription dedicated to the Netherlands must be of Swiss make between 1740 and 1795.
The #4 and combined sign both stand for the respective unit; for an identification of the latter I am certain we do have some experts.


Best,
Michael

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[fernando]

Old 20th March 2014, 04:54 AM #259

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much for posting this, its great to see this venerable thread revived. This is indeed an interesting grouping and inscription on this blade.
Michael, thank you so much for coming in on this!! and for the excellent input on these Swiss mercenary forces which were so prevalent in European armies. This perfectly explains this slogan VIVAT HOLLANDIA .

Actually most blades for the Dutch, and for Swiss forces in these times were typically produced in Solingen, though in many cases there were German smiths working in the Netherlands. I have not been aware of any working in Switzerland.
Solingen in the 18th century was producing numbers of blades for various European countries and there were variations with the 'Vivat' motto.
Others were 'Vivat Pandur' usually on various hangers and hunting weapons including plug bayonets; also 'Vivat Hussar' on military sabres with military motif and panoplies. Many of these were destined for Austria, Hungary and other centers in Europe.

The majuscule IK with the numeral 4 above is most likely a makers initials, and the 4 atop is in similar configuration as this number above the heart on EIC balemark as well as many makers and printers logos using initials topped by the 4. This number is considered talismanic (for the magical/astrological symbol for Jupiter) and was used in the same fashion as the cross and orb so often seen on arms.

In Bezdek (p.142) a mark with large block initials D over K with the 4 above them was used by Dries Klein in Solingen 1610-30. These makers marks and initials were often passed down or sold, but the configurations and use of key symbols (such as the 4) were often adopted in variation. I would say that this Solingen maker (as yet unidentified) probably used this tradition in marking the blade. The doves were a favored Christian symbol sometimes seen on Hungarian blades with magic or talismanic symbols, and used in other similar motif.

Interesting to see these blades occurring in number, and I hope we might see other examples and especially what type blades they are on.
All best regards,
JIm
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[fernando]

Old 20th March 2014, 07:03 AM #260

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Ibrahiim,
Though this is not my field, I hope I can clarify your query.

There is a recent book in German by Jürg Meier: Vivat Hollandia - zur Geschichte der Schweizer in holländischen Diensten 1740-1795. Griffwaffen und Uniformen. 2008.

The author describes the use of both edged weapons and uniforms of Swiss soldiers serving for the Netherlands. Thus your sword with that inscription dedicated to the Netherlands must be of Swiss make between 1740 and 1795.
The #4 and combined sign both stand for the respective unit; for an identification of the latter I am certain we do have some experts.


Best,
Michael (Quote)

Salaams Michael ~ Thank you for your great reply.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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[fernando]

#261

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Jim and thank you very much for your reply... I shall try to expand on the blade details...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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[fernando]

Old 19th April 2015, 03:55 PM #262


Posred by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied.
The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made.


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[fernando]

Old 19th April 2015, 04:26 PM #263

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied.
The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made. (Quote)

Outstanding Jens!!! This is a perfect example of how ethnographic arms and European are often inexorably linked, through trade or otherwise acquired blades and the adoption of European stamps, marks, and inscriptions used by native artisans in their interpretations.
While many of these markings are trade or guild oriented in Europe, and many are either magical, religious or talismanic in their application there, these were often transmuted into folk religious, talismanic or other symbolism in local native parlances.

Better understanding of these markings in their respective cultural spheres often give us perspective on interaction and influences as far as dates, periods etc often help us establish details in identification of ethnographic examples.

Thank you so much Jens, good to see this thread again!!

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 21st April 2015, 08:47 AM #264

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

An intriguing medieval sword in the British Museum of London around 1300.
The symbols on the blade are of gold inlay and remain a mystery so far....

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[fernando]

Old 15th May 2015, 02:21 PM #265

Posted by:
dana_w
Member

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. (Quote)



Jim, this recent article in National Geographic has me looking for the posts where you mention blades from shipwrecks off the coast of Panama.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...an-archaeology/

"The cargo ship went down in 1681 with crates of swords, nails, and bolts of cloth."
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[fernando]

Old 3rd June 2015, 06:46 PM #266

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Salaams All~

Please accept this web address for information on Signs Ornaments and Inscriptions on Swords please see http://www.academia.edu/496513/Medi..._Aleksi%C 4%87

Simply get onto the page and slide down the right hand side to page 117.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Old 4th June 2015, 04:12 PM #267

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

Salaams Ibrahiim,

that is an amazing find and sublime research !

kind regards
Ulfberth
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[fernando]

Old 30th January 2016, 03:49 AM #268

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

It seems most appropriate to note here that a magnificent book,
"European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks" by Staffan Kinman,
President of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society, published in 2015 is now available through Ken Trotman arms books in England.

This thread has had a magnificent run, and has essentially archived our many discussions on the markings which have been often perplexing and presented ponderous queries. Here in the pages of Mr Kinman's wonderful book are details on many of these compiled with absolutely magnificent research!
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[fernando]

Old 12th March 2016, 06:45 PM #269

Posted by:
joyfulkitten
Member

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Washington State, USA

I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks?
Attached Images
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[fernando]

Old 13th March 2016, 11:47 AM #270

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Amazing !
While (some of) the marks are not totally irecognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both.
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[fernando]

Old 13th March 2016, 11:51 AM #271

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

Originally Posted by fernando
Amazing !
While (some of) the marks are not totally {un?}recognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both.

(i think fernando meant 'unrecognised') (Quote)

yes, i'd noticed the odd hilt myself, can we have a picture of the whole sword please is the end of the pommel peened?
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[fernando]

Old 13th March 2016, 12:20 PM #272

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? (Quote)


Salaams joyfulkitten, Whilst the three obvious marks appear to be sun, moon and stars there is a suggestion of something theatrical in this sword...not least the odd hilt.
What part do you suggest has Sumerian link?... The vaguely anchor shaped mark ?..perhaps that is where you link Sumerian since dagger hilts were roughly that shape but it is not something I would rely upon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 13th March 2016, 03:57 PM #273

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi JK,
I see you have done some most interesting research on this unusual item, and am most curious as well on the Sumerian association. Other than the extremely ancient Mesopotamian civilization , or the Cimmerians who lived much later, I think only of the well known movies of 'Conan the Barbarian'.
While the 'theatrical nature' of this item seems well placed, it does not seem to correspond to props in that film.

The markings are indeed a most interesting mélange of some used in various contexts by German makers of 17th and 18th centuries A.D.
I think the 'anchor' type mark resembles similar seen on blades from Valencia, Spain in the 16th into 17th c. A.D.
The sun and moon were cosmological symbols used on blades in Germany and East Europe in the 17th-18th c. as mentioned.
The stars were added embellishments in these contexts.
The grouping of these symbols, while not particularly well executed, seems most interesting on a theatrical sword as these kinds of details are not usually added.

You noted that this item was added to your collection, may I ask what type of swords or edged weapons do you collect?
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[fernando]

Old 13th March 2016, 05:34 PM #274

Posred by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101,
Glos. UK

i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help.
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[fernando]

Old 13th March 2016, 08:49 PM #275

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by kronckew
i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help. (Quote)


It is true that in the theater, often old blades could be dolled up for use by adding more appropriate hilts. Optimistically we might hope that to be the case here, but quite honestly these markings do not seem in character with blades regularly seen in trade or colonial native circumstances.

It is often amazing how often artifacts with weapons in particular have been presumed of earlier periods, but later determined to be such stage creations.

Interestingly, in California, the old movie studios in their labyrinths of sets, props and costumes often warehoused these from silent film days into the 1980s. When they 'decaccessed' these it was amazing how many actual early weapons were used in these films. This is likely the reason that Rudolph Valentino was an avid sword collector (not sure of others) as these were so available to him.

Alternatively, often times old swords either intact or refurbished became ceremonial or Tyler's sword in Freemason lodges.

Always lots of possibilities, and as noted, from photos it is really difficult to determine more so other views would help.
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[fernando]

Old 14th March 2016, 01:44 AM #276

Posted by.
joyfulkitten
Member

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Washington State, USA

Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload.
.

[fernando]

Old 14th March 2016, 09:48 AM #277

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)



Salaams JK, I see what you mean and show a Sumerian dagger hilt. I suggest that this likeness in the blade stamp is purely co incidental and posit that the theatrical nature of the weapon is more likely.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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[fernando]

Old 14th March 2016, 11:40 AM #278

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
... I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)

If you don't know of any resizing programs, like this one:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...ppowertoys.mspx

You may exceptionally send the pictures to me and i will resize them and upload them for you.
fernando@vikingsword.com
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[fernando]

Old 23rd July 2016, 04:49 PM #279

Posted by:
corrado26
Member

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany

Originally Posted by fernando
They also call this symbol a christogram. (Quote)

This Nomen Sacrum IHS derives from the transkription of the first two and the last letter of the Greek name of Jesus - Iota-Eta-Sigma-Omikron-Ypsilon-Sigma or ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, = JESUS. The I is the Greek Iota, the H = Eta and the S = Sigma. So it has nothing to do with the Jesuit-association.
corrado26
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