The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 23rd July 2016, 06:28 PM #280

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Was i so distant, Corrado ?

"The JHS or IHS monogram of the name of Jesus (or traditional Christogram symbol of western Christianity), derived from the first three letters of the Greek name of Jesus, Iota-Eta-Sigma (ΙΗΣΟΥΣ). Partly based on memories of church decorations. Has some degree of resemblance to a portion of the emblem of the Jesuits, due to common medieval influences (see Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus), but is not exactly the same, nor intended to be so."
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[fernando]

Old 24th July 2016, 06:52 AM #281

Posted by:
corrado26
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany

No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise.
corrado26
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[fernando]

Old 24th July 2016, 07:54 AM #282

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK


further to that: it's one of the earliest christian decorations. , Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient sea goddess Atargatis, so was a perfect secret cover symbol.

from the writings of the immortal god of knowledge, wikipedia:

The ichthys or ichthus (/ˈɪkθəs, from the Greek ikhthýs (ἰχθύς, "fish"), is a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish. It was used by early Christians as a secret Christian symbol and now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish".

ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthus) is a backronym/acrostic for "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".

Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus".
Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed".
Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God".
Upsilon (y) is the first letter of (h)uios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son".
Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior".

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[fernando]

Old 24th July 2016, 10:37 AM #283

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,885

Originally Posted by corrado26
No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise.
corrado26 (Quote)

I took it like a correction, not a criticism ... and i saw nothing wrong with that .
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[fernando]

Old 27th July 2016, 12:01 AM #284

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

ICHTHYOPHAGI...Means land of the fish eaters...and was applied by Ptolomy the great map maker at Alexandria..See the map below where it is inscribed across what is now The UAE, Mussandam and part of Oman.

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[fernando]

Old 27th July 2016, 07:51 AM #285

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK


early version of "beware - beyond be monsters and the lands of the animal headed cannibals".


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[fernando]

Old 27th July 2016, 08:05 PM #286

Posred by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Corrado, thank you so much for the additional notes on the IHS symbol, and Fernando for your further explained observations on same.
It seems there are key dynamics associated with this three letter symbol, known as noted as the Christogram, which help us better understand its possible intention as used in marking weapons.
To add to Wayne's well detailed notes.

In early times, scribes often abbreviated Jesus' name with the two first letters of his name , or the first and last, with a line over the letters.
The Greek letters Chi (as with 'x') and Rho (as with P) abbreviated, were often used (Christ) as well.

Also, I (iota) and H (eta) first two letters for Jesus (early alphabets saw the I as J.

By the 2nd century, the S (sigma) was also added thus rendering IHS.

These Christograms were used as secret codes used on tombs, door posts etc. to designate one as Christian.

By the 15th century St. Bernadine of Sienna and his student St. John of Capistrano used the Christogram in preaching missions, and in Italy often used wood placards with surround of rays with IHS. The devout were encouraged to use this monogram in place of their own family crests etc. Pope Martin in 1427 asked for cross to be added.

However, by these times, the use and knowledge of Greek was in decline, and Latin predominated leading to the misperception that IHS represented
Iesus Hominum Salvator.
In the following years, this Christogram became added often into the motif on sword blades, known to used for example by Caino in Italy, and of course followed in suit by many others and across Europe,

Ibrahiim and Wayne, thank you for these keynote examples of the cartography of these times, which truly add perspective and better understanding of temporal attitudes and superstitions often held.
It is easy to understand how these kinds of religious and talismanic devices and symbols became legion on weaponry given the perils in warfare as well as perceived supernatural forces.
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[fernando]

Old 28th July 2016, 06:52 AM #287

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 2,288


Battle of the Milvian Bridge

legend has it that just before the battle emperor constatine had a vision (from God) and had his legionnaires paint the chi-rho on their shields, and won the battle tho outnumbered. the 'vision' story, and the chi-rho on shields is likely not true, it's not mentioned until much later than the battle by christian scholars. constantine did convert to christianity, from the monotheistic sol invictus religion* & was the first to allow christianity as well as the traditional gods. ch-rho was thereafter popular theme on legionary tombstones and caskets.

*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUNday.

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[fernando]

Old 28th July 2016, 06:31 PM #288

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by kronckew
*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUN DAY. (Quote)

From when such day, originally called Dies Sole, due to it been a day for Pagans gathering, was changed to Dies Dominus (day of the Lord), declared the first day of the week. But i bet you don't know why in Portugal the rest of the week days have an exclusive nomenclature, decided by a Church big shot .

[fernando]

Old 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM #289

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

monday=Segunda-feira
tuesday=terça-feira
thursday=quinta-feira
friday=Sexta-feira
saturday=sábado
sunday=domingo

boring workdays seem to be numerical, the weekend days are liturgical, saturday was the old sabbath day, sunday is in the church's minds, the lord's day (dominus), and thus the first day, which is why monday is segunda.

feira=market, so i guess that the weekdays are market days, that is 'working' days where the people generally did not have the time to get into religious trouble, as opposed to the licentious weekends where they needed tha firm hand of the church's guidance to keep them in line.

us heretics, however, still honour the old gods.
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[fernando]

Old 28th July 2016, 09:10 PM #290

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Ah, ah .
You missed wednesday=quarta-feira, by the way.
The whole thing started in the year 563, when a church concilium was held in the Portuguese city of Braga. Bishop Martinho was the one that decided on naming the days in such way. Feira, first of all,comes from feria=resting (holiday). Contrary to one's perplexity that week days are for working and not for rest, the bishop's original idea was only to apply those names to the Holy Week, but later common people vulgarized the norm and attributed it to the whole year. Therefore the first day being Domingo, the next is segunda (second) feira, then terça (third) feira and so on.
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[fernando]

Old 4th August 2016, 09:03 PM #291

Posted by:
blue lander
Member

Join Date: Nov 2013

Does anybody recognize this mark?

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[fernando]

Old 4th August 2016, 09:51 PM #292

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Originally Posted by blue lander
Does anybody recognize this mark? (Quote)


What sort of blade is this on?
Unusual to see this kind of cartouche on tang rather than blade.
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[fernando]

Old 4th August 2016, 09:52 PM #293

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Yes, it should be interesting to see the whole blade.
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[fernando]

Old 5th August 2016, 08:58 PM #294

Posted by:
blue lander
Member

Join Date: Nov 2013

It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for

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[fernando]

Old 6th August 2016, 07:41 AM #295

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Qote)

Interesting court dagger?... Probably European perhaps Louis XV1 ? Is there more information at the throat... ?
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[fernando]

Old 6th August 2016, 08:47 AM #296

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Quote)


Hi Blue Lander,

I would be not to regretful, in my opinion that blade is a shortened sword blade of a late 18th C military officers sword.
Just look how the fuller runs trough right to the end , on this type of blade it should stop before the end, more or less two third of the blade length.
The edges on the side of the fuller are sharpened.
Also the length of the ricasso would be totally out of proportion.
Here is a sword with a similar type of blade.

kind regards

Ulfberth

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[fernando]

Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Well caught Ulfberht!!
That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion.

In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms.

But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart?

Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ?
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[fernando]

Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014


True Jim,

In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ?
What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened.
Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms.
My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes.
Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon.

kind regards

Ulfberth
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[fernando]

Old 7th August 2016, 12:26 PM #299

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by ulfberth
... The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened... (Quote)

Oh yes,
Blunderbusses adapted by regional smiths from salvaged musket parts, from the Peninsular War, are countless.
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[fernando]

Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings...
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[Victrix]

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

[fernando]

I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark.
You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence.

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[Victrix]

Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

[fernando]

It would take someone with more knowledge to answer your questions; even the assumption that the (four) dots are not maker's marks but a period fashion symbol ... or both. ´
When i bought my cannons i have made some search and resumed that the four dots were typical marks of 15th century short cannons; something certainly not applicable to those in your sword.
Whether there is a time line linking both, i ignore.
In any case, why don't you show us the whole of your sword ?

[Victrix]

Fernando, I presented the sword in a separate thread previously. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I thought I would follow up on the four dots mark in this thread dealing specifically with marks, and see if someone recognized them. Are your [small] cannons from a particular geographic location? Could they be the mark of a foundry producing iron? Perhaps the cannons were cast at this foundry and then marked accordingly?

[fernando]

These (three in all) examples are in principle Spanish. They were forged, not cast; those appeared much later. The four dots were surely the mark of the workshop but, as you know, very often early marks represented symbols, magic and so. I remember now who said these were 15th century marks.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=85708&postcount=3
I would not associate these dots with the ones in your sword; after all, dots are a symbol easy to occur everywhere and in different periods, as also in more complex setups, like in edged weapons.

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[Victrix]

I think the three dots with sickle marks tend to be associated with Northern Italy and may represent the Holy Trinity or some say, even grapes.

Maybe the four dots represent some kind of Gothic quatrefoil/kleeblatt which in turn may represent a cross or the four gospels in the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). It may just be a kind of superstitious good luck sign or blessing. I was just wondering because because it seemed to replace the ”Pottenstein” engraved example in Wagner’s book.

[ariel]

Victrix,
Please show the entire sword and separately the handle.
There seems to be a twist that pushes me toward Georgian Khmali. I may be wrong, but need better pics.

[Victrix]

Ariel, I may have expressed myself in a clumsy way. Only the first sword is mine. It was presented in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I found the picture of the second sword in the forum elsewhere and posted it only for comparison to show the gurda marks. My question is if anyone is familiar with the four dots mark shown on the sabre in the first picture.

[fernando]

Just one last note on the four dots symbol ... as once posted HERE (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19688&highlight=dots)


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[Victrix]

Yes there is that mark again. Many thanks, Fernando. Interesting. Until I’m enlightened further I’m inclined to believe that the mark is either religious (cross symbol) or something marking good iron/steel. Or could be both: a foundry mark by a religious smith! :)

[Victrix]

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
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No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

[Victrix]

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

I encountered the four dots mark on a sabre at the Warzaw Army Museum (see picture) believed to have belonged to Hungarian noble man Stephan Bathory who was Prince of Transylvania 1571-76 and King of Poland 1575-86. He is credited with bringing the hussars (the light cavalry, not the winged, variety) to Poland.

[Billman]

Hi
I joined this forum some years ago, but not been active recently as I had lost track of things when my old computer crashed. My interest is edge tools, primarily the billhook, but also axes and sickles... Many edge tool makers also made weapons, and vice versa - the Klingenthal Royal Armoury works in Alsace became known as Coulaux et Cie, taillandiers (edge tool makers)..

Thus there may well be a great overlap in makers marks - tools are way undervalued as historical artifacts, and many agricultural tools are mis-sold as weapons - often by reputable dealers who should know better... The number of battle axes and beheading axes that are just specialist tools, is beyond belief...

There is an excellent Wiki site showing many of the touch marks used by Austrian scythe smiths, and which probably includes Styria/Slovenia...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Sensenwerke_in_%C3%96sterreich

Below Are some of the marks used by Austrian smiths, found on axes etc..

Also the main reason for getting my account here active once more - I have just bought a Polish hewing axe, with a sword shaped touch mark that I recognise, but cannot remember - can anyone identify it for me???

[Billman]

This German site has stamps of edge tool makers who made wood chisels - they would have made other tools, and some may have also made weapons...

http://alte-beitel.de/index.php/warenzeichen

and thus: Franz Damisch, Ybbsitz (Austria)

[chregu]

can be found on axes and Halbart
were used until the 19th century

http://www.michaelblank.at/collection-of-edgded-media/

sorry for my bad english

[Victrix]

Many thanks for posting those blacksmiths’ marks? Does anyone have a list of sword/bladesmiths’ marks from Styria?

[fernando]

Could they have some publication covering marks in the Graz Museum ?


https://www.museum-joanneum.at/

[Victrix]

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

There’s an 18thC Ottoman Karabela sword in the Imperial Armoury in Prague which has the four dots mark in addition to three dots marks in various constellations. The blade seems European but the four dots mark (near the half moon mark) might have been added later?

[fernando]

Some Belluno area marks, by member AndreaFeraro89:


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[AndreaFeraro89]

More Belunese area marks!
From Catalogue of the Doge Palace armoury by Franzoi

Enjoy!
:D

[dralin23]

Hi there,
i found some days ago an intresting indian Patasword with an narrow european Blade. at both sides from these blade are tradestamps or makersmarks without an name. have someone an idea from where these blade comes or in with time these blade was made?
unusual for me is that it is an narrow blade , only 25 mm wide.
i never saw before such an narrow blade in an pata sword. but i think that it is an old marriage and only an idiot did sharpened the edges with an grindling machine. i think that the blade wasn´t changed in its shape.
i´m curious about your opinions!

[dralin23]

here are some pictures from an other pata sword ..,
these blade is marked with an running wolve and some letters.
i wonder how was these letters read? are these letters only symbols, or religius characters?
also intresting is if the running wolve was in an wrong direction stitched?
i asked in the solingen sword museum in the hope that they could tell me something more about the history from these blade but i received only a short answer that it is an solingen blade from the 17.th.ct. they couldn´t tell me something over the sinn from these letters.
have someone an better idea?
i don´t believe that it is an indian blade with wrong marks, but the indian swordmaking history is full of surprices.

[fernando]

The marks on your blade are one of the various misspelled initials of "In Nomine Domini" and would mean " In the name of the Lord (God)", an ancient Catholic expression; actually the title of a Papal Bull in the year 1050. You often find this in European blades; a subject also often discussed here in the forum-

[dralin23]

hello fernando,
thank you for these information!
I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why.

[Victrix]

hello fernando,
thank you for these information!
I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why.

Supposedly when the blade smiths of Solingen put the wolf of Passau on the blades, they put them upside down compared to any text. So the wolf mark on your blade shows it’s made in Solingen. It’s beautiful. :cool:

[dralin23]

Supposedly when the blade smiths of Solingen put the wolf of Passau on the blades, they put them upside down compared to any text. So the wolf mark on your blade shows it’s made in Solingen. It’s beautiful. :cool:

hi,
this is new for me and very intresting!!
where you have read it?

[Victrix]

hi,
this is new for me and very intresting!!
where you have read it?

Can’t remember exactly. Wagner’s Cut and Thrust Weapons? Or Oakeshott?

[dralin23]

Can’t remember exactly. Wagner’s Cut and Thrust Weapons? Or Oakeshott?

thank you for these information!!
intrestig to hear this, I wonder why I couldn't get such important information when I asked for it in the sword museum in Solingen.

[gp]

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

[toaster5sqn]

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, toaster :).
Nice rapier with a pierced hilt. The 'anchor' symbol is, as you know, 'often' seen in both Spanish (Toledo) and also in German (Solingen) blades. If you browse the term on the Shearch button above you will find various approaches on this subject.
The letters on the left are not doubt those of the blade smith (PERO ?); most probably different letters appear on the other side.
It would be useful to see photos of both sides in all their graphic extent, to try and identify their contents.
When you post such pictures, we will see what knowledged members have to say about the marks on this sword.


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[Jim McDougall]

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

Glad to have you here, and well done on the work of your group identifying weapons and seeing that they are properly labeled. It is most important to those of us who have spent many years studying arms and armor to do that very thing, and we've been doing it here for well over 20 years.

As you have noted, what appears to be a makers(?) name appears in the fuller and it was often a Spanish convention to interpolate astrological and or occult symbols with inscriptions to imbue magic potential in effect to the blade. The 'anchor' was also a device which was used at the fuller terminus or to end an inscription on a blade in a punctuation sense.
These are always interesting as there are nuanced variations in the elements of these cross style devices mostly in the numbers of branches/bars .

As Fernando has noted, Germany was most avid in using copies of these as well on blades they made often with spurious markings and inscriptions from Spanish and Italian makers.

Often on blades there were unusual groupings of letters which may have been acronyms for phrases or invocations, while names copied in Germany may often be misspelled or improperly used.

[fernando]

...Often on blades there were unusual groupings of letters which may have been acronyms for phrases or invocations, while names copied in Germany may often be misspelled or improperly used...
Jim, this is the reason why i have suggested that, more adequate assessments may take place when photos of each side of the blade with the complete inscriptions are shown.
Probably you didn't read my post :rolleyes:.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, this is the reason why i have suggested that, more adequate assessments may take place when photos of each side of the blade with the complete inscriptions are shown.
Probably you didn't read my post :rolleyes:.


Actually Fernando I have learned to read your posts very carefully so as not to infringe on your assessments. My attention was to the nature of the inscriptions and acronyms or names in them, which was what was being queried.

I saw no need to say more regarding matters involving which side of the blade they were on or if they were connected etc. as you had already (as you have emphasized) mentioned it.
My response had nothing to do with photography and preferred postures or images, and described the content of inscriptions in a general sense.

I did not say more on thoughts on the sword itself as this thread is on markings, not sword identification, and I almost suggested a separate thread, but that is your department. :)

[fernando]

Jim, should i would humbly reiterate that you didn't read my post or, for the matter, what i meant to say. The inscription in the one side of the blade as posted is not fully shown (so it seems), reducing in such case the possibility to interpreter its actual contents, whether a name or other. A picture of the other side would let us conclude how its inscription would be associated to that in the side posted, like the completion of a name (first and last), the allusion to the city of provenance (Toledo or Solingen), some religious theme .. or even a blank.
Therefore i was expecting that further thoughts on this issue were much better placed (only) after the thread author contemplate us with the requested pictures. Unless of course you or some other member were able to decipher the whole thing with the partial image available.
Obviously and so far the subject at stake is the marks in the blade, and not the sword itself.

[toaster5sqn]

Thank you all for your kind remarks and the additional information.
Here as requested are additional photos of the inscriptions on the right and left of the blade, we're still trying to improve the quality of the photos we get from these visits.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, should i would humbly reiterate that you didn't read my post or, for the matter, what i meant to say. The inscription in the one side of the blade as posted is not fully shown (so it seems), reducing in such case the possibility to interpreter its actual contents, whether a name or other. A picture of the other side would let us conclude how its inscription would be associated to that in the side posted, like the completion of a name (first and last), the allusion to the city of provenance (Toledo or Solingen), some religious theme .. or even a blank.
Therefore i was expecting that further thoughts on this issue were much better placed (only) after the thread author contemplate us with the requested pictures. Unless of course you or some other member were able to decipher the whole thing with the partial image available.
Obviously and so far the subject at stake is the marks in the blade, and not the sword itself.

I do appreciate your humble assertion that I am not capable of reading your post :), but I would point out again that I was addressing the typical CONTENT of the inscriptions often found on blades (in general).............I was NOT trying to decipher this one.

Obviously the inscriptions on blades often differ from obverse to reverse, and this can definitely impact the entirety of the inscription if you are trying to decipher it. Thus, your request for a full complement of images of BOTH sides of the blade (which I understood) was perfectly understandable.

My point was that 'inscriptions; (in general) comprise names, phrases, invocations or acronyms, and within these are often 'magic' symbols interpolated within them....as seen here. This was a statement I could easily make WITHOUT seeing both sides of the blade as it pertained to blade inscriptions in general.

[fernando]

... we're still trying to improve the quality of the photos we get from these visits...
That would be an excelent idea ;). Also placing the photos all in the same direction will help discern what the inscriptions are all about, specially with such 'encripted' cases. I will now open a new thread in the regular discussion forum, so that a further audience may have a say at this.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27163

I am still convinced that the inscription is about a smith's name and a city; something like "Pedro de Toro in Toledo" comes to mind but, this is just a guess. One thing you should check on is the presence of a smith's mark in the ricasso, close to the tang, behind the hilt. Toledan masters often strike their personal mark in that area.


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[Jim McDougall]

On Spanish blades it was quite common to see the name of the maker and his place of work placed in the fuller, but often certain letters were replaced with astrological symbols or magic associated glyphs. This type of embellishment was believed to imbue certain talismanic potential (and quality endorsement) to the blade along with the makers name.

In many cases, as I previously mentioned, names were misspelled, and in other cases, wording seemed incongruent and in effect 'jibberish' as they made no sense. These were cases of 'acronyms', which are first letters of words in phrases, invocations and such which may have had special arcane meaning to certain individuals or groups at the time.

Such 'encryption' was common in Spain because of strong beliefs in magic, occult and superstition as well as the mystic dogma of the Kaballa associated with Jewish Faith, which was prevalent as well. The talismanic properties of these beliefs and followings in their ciphers, glyphs and symbols were important talismanic additions to blades in inscriptions.

A makers mark at the ricasso is always probably the best potential for identification of a blades maker, however those of prominent smiths were of course widely copied. On that point, only comparison of the style and character of the blades by that maker and with provenance will best assure that identification.

Again, as this thread is focused on blade markings and inscriptions I wanted to add my thoughts pertaining to these, and thank you for the added photos which better illustrate this blade's examples.

[toaster5sqn]

The reversal of direction of some photos is to differentiate the left side from the right, all photos of the same side face the same way.

Robert

[fernando]

The reversal of direction of some photos is to differentiate the left side from the right, all photos of the same side face the same way.

Robert
Sorry Robert ... my bad :o.

[fernando]

... A makers mark at the ricasso is always probably the best potential for identification of a blades maker, however those of prominent smiths were of course widely copied...
Sure thing, Jim; but i take it that such marks were not (at all) so much copied as written makers names.

[Jim McDougall]

Sure thing, Jim; but i take it that such marks were not (at all) so much copied as written makers names.

Its really hard to say which instance was more prevalent, and of course it depended greatly on when, where, and who. There were always attempts to regulate the proper use of markings by guilds etc. but naturally deviation is inevitable, so purloined marks were always possible.

One of the most well established signals on markings etc. on blades made in Germany (not only Solingen, but Munich as well) bearing spurious marks and inscriptions is these assembled incongruently. For example an inscription or name used along with the marking of an earlier Toledo smith which does not match.

In Solingen also, names were used in the sense of a 'brand', and the famed Toledo 'Sahagum' name of the previous century became much favored for clientele in Europe and North Countries.
The well known 'Spanish motto' (draw me without reason etc) was used on Solingen made dragoon sword blades specifically for the colonies in New Spain around early 18th c. However, with this motto, as you pointed out some years back, it does seem to have existed earlier .

The most well known of purloined names was ANDREA FERARA, the well known Belluno maker, whose name became a symbol of quality, and used by Solingen specifically for Scottish cutlers. Blades with this name have been found on occasion in other context, but almost invariably occur on Scottish swords.

I have seen the names JESUS and MARIA on rapier blades which most probably represent the Toledo smith Tomas Aiala on a rapier blade found on a late 17th century Spanish shipwreck off Panama. It seems this marking with one name one side the other obverse, was known to be used by only two Toledo smiths of previous century, but the mark at the ricasso had nothing to do with either, so it would seem this was again a Solingen product.

As the blade industry in Toledo had been steadily deteriorating through the 17th century, and was all but gone by the end, Solingen was of course eager to supply blades in their stead.
The use of Spanish names and markings became almost standard on these German blades as symbolic of the quality of the renowned Toledo.

[fernando]

Well, all those considerations sound familiar Jim but, nothing in them deny that spurious smiths names are much more abundant than spurious punzones de espadero ... by far ;).
Yours humbly !

[Jim McDougall]

Well, all those considerations sound familiar Jim but, nothing in them deny that spurious smiths names are much more abundant than spurious punzones de espadero ... by far ;).
Yours humbly !

I would imagine they would be most familiar to you considering how long you have studied, but mostly I wanted to detail them here for readers who may be following this line of research. Naturally these details cannot establish which instance may be more common, the use of names or the use of punzones.

I might suggest that in the 'legal' or regulatory aspects of the registration of marks/punzones there were consequences for using the mark of someone else while such wording in statutes did not include the use of names, phrases etc.
I would not try to assert that spurious use of either was more common one over the other, but perhaps this aspect might have had some bearing.
Interestingly, in Solingen, despite the spurious use of foreign markings, German makers went through considerable legal process to purchase use of marks of another maker. In England, the London Cutlers company has detailed records of permissions and grants for marks used by various makers, and forbad the unauthorized use of the mark of another.

I recall reading some time ago that English makers did not like to put their names on their blades as they thought it pretentious, but with the entry of German smiths into the Hounslow shops in the early 17th c. that changed.
With Toledo in demise, for a time in the 17th c. a number of German smiths from Solingen worked there and changed the character of their names being inscribed on their blades, Heinrick Koll for example became Enrique Coll.

I would point out here as well that most makers had more than one mark or punzone, and in the case of families, certain variations or entirely different stamps were used. In certain cases, in Toledo, there were also certain marks which were indicators of the status of espadero del Rey, where tax exemptions were involved. The famed 'man in the moon' crescent seems to have been one of these augmentations. These of course also had certain magic and talismanic properties so it is difficult to specifically identify their use.

Basically, whether marks or names used spuriously on blades had more instance one over the other is anybody's guess, and as always the blade being examined must be judged on its overall merits and clues.

[fernando]

Interesting, the note on English makers omitting their marks to prevent them from been considered pretentious. As written in reliable (as i find) articles, Toledan masters often omitted them on basis that they were known enough to have their blades identified without them. This (article) in relation to explain why Toledan blades were many times not marked. And so other many times they punctured the mark/s of the Toledo guild, instead of their own.
By marks, for the case, the interpretation is related with the smith personal punzones, those often inherited from their ancestors, and not symbols, esoteric or not, like half moons, anchors, ranks (espadero de rey) and other decoration motifs. The reason i tend to assure that the presence of those punzones on blades being inferior to faked smiths names, other than the (supposed) reason above is that, while a name of a famous smith written on the blade is something immediately noticed, ringing a bell to potencial customers, whereas the punzon, being of diminute dimensions, hidden behind the cup bowl and somehow an encripted motif, means little to such customers. In other words lacking marketing appeal.
The 'nationalizing' of names, like Heinrick Koll becoming Enrique Coll, is also a marketing operation ... but not only. Since early times that such procedure takes place; making it easy for locals to spell and pronounce a foreigner name. We usually had, for example, Flemish bombarders aboard ships and German cannon smelters in Lisbon arsenals during the discoveries period, as well as Biscays (even Jews) working in local armour workshops, having their names simplified.


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[Jim McDougall]

Interesting, the note on English makers omitting their marks to prevent them from been considered pretentious. As written in reliable (as i find) articles, Toledan masters often omitted them on basis that they were known enough to have their blades identified without them. This (article) in relation to explain why Toledan blades were many times not marked. And so other many times they punctured the mark/s of the Toledo guild, instead of their own.
By marks, for the case, the interpretation is related with the smith personal punzones, those often inherited from their ancestors, and not symbols, esoteric or not, like half moons, anchors, ranks (espadero de rey) and other decoration motifs. The reason i tend to assure that the presence of those punzones on blades being inferior to faked smiths names, other than the (supposed) reason above is that, while a name of a famous smith written on the blade is something immediately noticed, ringing a bell to potencial customers, whereas the punzon, being of diminute dimensions, hidden behind the cup bowl and somehow an encripted motif, means little to such customers. In other words lacking marketing appeal.
The 'nationalizing' of names, like Heinrick Koll becoming Enrique Coll, is also a marketing operation ... but not only. Since early times that such procedure takes place; making it easy for locals to spell and pronounce a foreigner name. We usually had, for example, Flemish bombarders aboard ships and German cannon smelters in Lisbon arsenals during the discoveries period, as well as Biscays (even Jews) working in local armour workshops, having their names simplified.


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On continuing research through my resources regarding mostly rapiers, but in the case of markings and names, I must note that I have found considerable support for your contention of the use of names on blades.
In most cases it was as you suggest of course not meant as forgery, but to herald the quality of the blade.
While I found numerous cases of spurious punzones used, I believe there was distinctly a pronounced use of names as you note, in fact more so than I had realized.
You also well note the 'simplification' of names in spellings and context of language, which was another case of names used in reference to quality .

It is always interesting when conflicting views lead to gainful discussion, where the process brings valuable conclusions and learning to the fore.
Thank you. :)

[serdar]

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

Actualy on 1 yugoslavian dukat that is not hand with sword neither is that sword, that is actuali two birds on the sides and tre holder in the midle, that is one mark, other is corn.
Sword mark is only used in austrian dukat sword surounded with stars.
Cheers.

[werecow]

The so far unidentified mark below was seen on a most likely early 18th c Dutch shell guard sword as shown in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOiaomxny-M) video where the criminally undersubscribed current owner takes it apart. He gives a more detailed description of the sword here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjmFaLNKVMs). The blade also has VOC marks, Z (for Zeeland) and M (for Middelburg), and "1717" (presumably a date). Possibly also a D on the shoulder of the blade. The pommel side is on the bottom of the image.

I looked through Kinman's "European makers of edged weapons, their marks" and Lenkiewicz' "1000 Marks of European Blademakers" and this thread, but I did not find any exact matches.

Does it ring any bells?