Oriental firearms/muskets

KuKulzA28 · 4th March 2009, 03:45 AM

I'm interested in seeing pictures of Chinese, SE Asian, Formosan, and Indian firearms - particularly musket/rifle/arquebus. The shapes, styles of the stocks, and the decor are interesting I think. I'd also be interested in learning more about them, or their personal history (owners, manufacture, etc.) If you guys wouldn't mind showing off your collections, my eyes would be much obliged.

LPCA · 4th March 2009, 07:56 AM

Hello.

For Toredar (India), not difficult to find good samples on the net or books (Tirri, ....). You can follow the link of one of my pages
http://blade.japet.com/13-inde.htm

For Chinese or others from SE., it's not so easy.

See the image from G.C. STONE: first up is of the indo-asian typical shape (stock). In fact, indian & central asian influence on chinese firearm (Mantchoue period).

Stone's others samples are later (end of XVII°-XVIII°).
I just received matchlock chinese one i bought on E...-France for a couple of bucks...
Very interesting and design piece.

Comments are welcomed.

Louis-Pierre

KuKulzA28 · 4th March 2009, 09:33 PM

Wow, thank you

. I had trouble finding sites with a lot of examples of Chinese and SE Asian firearms, but you're right, Middle Eastern/Indian ones were a lot more "common"...

I had found a lot of pictures of "camel-guns"(?) and Afghan as well as North African guns? I don't know much abotu the guns themselves, but I do know that in Afghans has guns when they invaded India, and I think the Moroccans had guns when they invaded Mali... obviously this is not where my historical knowledge is strong

#3 gun looks like a gun in the aboriginal collection of Yang-Grevot... Where was it made, do you know? Perhaps the location of origin was close to Taiwan and thus the Aborigines got their hands on some Chinese guns of that type...

LPCA · 4th March 2009, 09:51 PM

Yes, you are right for the N°3 on STONE samples. Its 90° stock is very close of the ones of Taiwan's arborigenes, but shorter. Chinese influence certainly.

pbleed · 7th March 2009, 07:46 PM

Friends,
I happen to have a flintlock gun that may be of interest in this thread. Indeed, it is the second Southeast Asian flinter I have owned. I bought it because I foolishly let the other get away. I bought this one in the box it was sent home in, in 1970 by a USAID worker. In addition to the gun, the kit included a powder horn, shot flask, and a couple of other items. I am not sure how to attach a picture. Please allow me to see if this works.
Peter Bleed

pbleed · 7th March 2009, 10:54 PM

Friends,
Having climbed the learning curve, let me attach something like a full view of this Meo gun. If this works, that is ifI really have figured out how to post pictures. this list may be in for lots of pix. I have been a long time viewer, but I have been too timid to enter the discussions.
Peter

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2009, 11:43 PM

Outstanding and very esoteric item Peter! Its good to see you posting, and you are indeed most modest, your input on these discussions will be a decidedly valuable asset. Around here the questions are every bit as important as observations and comments. We never stop learning, and best of all, doing it together!!

All the very best,
Jim

Anandalal N. · 8th March 2009, 04:51 AM

Dear Peter,

Congratulations on this interestng find. Is it possible to see an image with the pan cover closed. It must take a large flint to reach the distance from the cock to the frizzen.

Best.

LPCA · 8th March 2009, 05:48 AM

Bonjour, Peter.
Good you could join pics at your post.
If you allow me, just 2 points:

1 - try to respect the max length of 30cm (high is not important if you respect the max size of an image on this forum) with a suffisant resolution of 72 pix/inch. Objective is to stay in the limits of size of the text.

2 - For a presentation of a firearm (they are most of the time quite long), the best is:
¤ 1 general view
¤ 1 image of the stock if specific
¤ 1 image of the lock
¤ 1 image of the end of the barrel with the mouth.
¤ image of the writings (if any) or of specific details if interesting (capucinces, trigger, ....).

Have a glance to http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-coraux.htm
It's just a guideline of course, but i vave been in the obligation to fix rules of presentation of my studies (and the blades have the same presentation.

You can also introduce several images joined to the same post.
I know you will succeed....

Friendly.
Louis-Pierre

ward · 9th March 2009, 12:24 AM

A lot of these rifles were bought back from vietnam by U.S. troops. They use a small flint that is held in by a gum tar.

Atlantia · 9th March 2009, 01:33 AM

Bloody hell Ward!
If you're not going to 'big up' your amazing collection then I'll have to!

Ward has a completely jaw-dropping collection of ethnic guns Linky

Peter! Great Gun,
Not a type I'm familiar with, very nice to see.

pbleed · 10th March 2009, 01:56 AM

Ward,
Boy, I can't be sure, but the image you posted looks very much (!) like the gun I owned and mentioned in my earlier post. It had a couple of aluminum barrel bands in front of a copper band that held the lock in place. I owned that gun for several years - enough in fact that I do not think it was a Vietnam bring back. It was the loss of that gun that moved me to acquire the piece I showed. Lesson: there are more reasons to acquire interesting items than there are for getting rid of them!
Thanks for sharing.
Peter

ward · 10th March 2009, 02:40 AM

Yes I have about 10 of this type the later use aluminum barrell bands the earlier ones use copper and silver. Vietnam is the rough area but these areas of origin are vague they were also used in surrounding areas. If I get time I will take pic of some more. here is a link of one I posted a few years back
montenyard rifle

trenchwarfare · 13th March 2009, 10:56 PM

Here are my two "monkey" guns. Both came out of S.E. Asia, via CIA spooks, so no telling from what country.

Click the link, and scroll down. If it was already stated, I missed it... What is the name of these guns? I found reference to a Chinese name, but no S.E. Asia names. M.P.http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=68848

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2009, 12:22 PM

Hi Trench,
Just curious...what did the 'monkey gun' term come from? I always think the history behind a lot of these colloquial terms is fascinating, and it seems like a collection of them would make a great glossary here.

Best regards,
Jim

KuKulzA28 · 14th March 2009, 01:42 PM

All I know is that they used to call my people monkeys, Chinamen, gooks, chinks, etc...?

trenchwarfare · 16th March 2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Trench,
Just curious...what did the 'monkey gun' term come from? I always think the history behind a lot of these colloquial terms is fascinating, and it seems like a collection of them would make a great glossary here.

Best regards,
Jim

Hello Jim. I kinda came up with it on my own. No racial slur intended. Seemed logical, since these guns were most likely used to hunt monkeys, and other indigenous critters. I call all North African, and Middle Eastern guns, "camel guns"!

4th March 2009, 03:45 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Oriental firearms/muskets I'm interested in seeing pictures of Chinese, SE Asian, Formosan, and Indian firearms - particularly musket/rifle/arquebus. The shapes, styles of the stocks, and the decor are interesting I think. I'd also be interested in learning more about them, or their personal history (owners, manufacture, etc.) If you guys wouldn't mind showing off your collections, my eyes would be much obliged.

4th March 2009, 07:56 AM	#2
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello. For Toredar (India), not difficult to find good samples on the net or books (Tirri, ....). You can follow the link of one of my pages http://blade.japet.com/13-inde.htm For Chinese or others from SE., it's not so easy. See the image from G.C. STONE: first up is of the indo-asian typical shape (stock). In fact, indian & central asian influence on chinese firearm (Mantchoue period). Stone's others samples are later (end of XVII°-XVIII°). I just received matchlock chinese one i bought on E...-France for a couple of bucks... Very interesting and design piece. Comments are welcomed. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

7th March 2009, 07:46 PM	#5
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	Meo Flintlock, Vietnam bring back Friends, I happen to have a flintlock gun that may be of interest in this thread. Indeed, it is the second Southeast Asian flinter I have owned. I bought it because I foolishly let the other get away. I bought this one in the box it was sent home in, in 1970 by a USAID worker. In addition to the gun, the kit included a powder horn, shot flask, and a couple of other items. I am not sure how to attach a picture. Please allow me to see if this works. Peter Bleed Attached Images Last edited by pbleed; 7th March 2009 at 10:42 PM.

7th March 2009, 10:54 PM	#6
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	amother image of the Meo gun Friends, Having climbed the learning curve, let me attach something like a full view of this Meo gun. If this works, that is ifI really have figured out how to post pictures. this list may be in for lots of pix. I have been a long time viewer, but I have been too timid to enter the discussions. Peter Attached Images

9th March 2009, 12:24 AM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	A lot of these rifles were bought back from vietnam by U.S. troops. They use a small flint that is held in by a gum tar. Attached Images

4th March 2009, 09:33 PM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Wow, thank you . I had trouble finding sites with a lot of examples of Chinese and SE Asian firearms, but you're right, Middle Eastern/Indian ones were a lot more "common"... I had found a lot of pictures of "camel-guns"(?) and Afghan as well as North African guns? I don't know much abotu the guns themselves, but I do know that in Afghans has guns when they invaded India, and I think the Moroccans had guns when they invaded Mali... obviously this is not where my historical knowledge is strong #3 gun looks like a gun in the aboriginal collection of Yang-Grevot... Where was it made, do you know? Perhaps the location of origin was close to Taiwan and thus the Aborigines got their hands on some Chinese guns of that type...

4th March 2009, 09:51 PM	#4
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Yes, you are right for the N°3 on STONE samples. Its 90° stock is very close of the ones of Taiwan's arborigenes, but shorter. Chinese influence certainly.

7th March 2009, 11:43 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Outstanding and very esoteric item Peter! Its good to see you posting, and you are indeed most modest, your input on these discussions will be a decidedly valuable asset. Around here the questions are every bit as important as observations and comments. We never stop learning, and best of all, doing it together!! All the very best, Jim

8th March 2009, 04:51 AM	#8
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Dear Peter, Congratulations on this interestng find. Is it possible to see an image with the pan cover closed. It must take a large flint to reach the distance from the cock to the frizzen. Best.

8th March 2009, 05:48 AM	#9
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Bonjour, Peter. Good you could join pics at your post. If you allow me, just 2 points: 1 - try to respect the max length of 30cm (high is not important if you respect the max size of an image on this forum) with a suffisant resolution of 72 pix/inch. Objective is to stay in the limits of size of the text. 2 - For a presentation of a firearm (they are most of the time quite long), the best is: ¤ 1 general view ¤ 1 image of the stock if specific ¤ 1 image of the lock ¤ 1 image of the end of the barrel with the mouth. ¤ image of the writings (if any) or of specific details if interesting (capucinces, trigger, ....). Have a glance to http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-coraux.htm It's just a guideline of course, but i vave been in the obligation to fix rules of presentation of my studies (and the blades have the same presentation. You can also introduce several images joined to the same post. I know you will succeed.... Friendly. Louis-Pierre

9th March 2009, 01:33 AM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Bloody hell Ward! If you're not going to 'big up' your amazing collection then I'll have to! Ward has a completely jaw-dropping collection of ethnic guns Linky Peter! Great Gun, Not a type I'm familiar with, very nice to see. Last edited by Atlantia; 9th March 2009 at 01:44 AM.

10th March 2009, 01:56 AM	#12
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	the one that got away Ward, Boy, I can't be sure, but the image you posted looks very much (!) like the gun I owned and mentioned in my earlier post. It had a couple of aluminum barrel bands in front of a copper band that held the lock in place. I owned that gun for several years - enough in fact that I do not think it was a Vietnam bring back. It was the loss of that gun that moved me to acquire the piece I showed. Lesson: there are more reasons to acquire interesting items than there are for getting rid of them! Thanks for sharing. Peter

10th March 2009, 02:40 AM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes I have about 10 of this type the later use aluminum barrell bands the earlier ones use copper and silver. Vietnam is the rough area but these areas of origin are vague they were also used in surrounding areas. If I get time I will take pic of some more. here is a link of one I posted a few years back montenyard rifle

13th March 2009, 10:56 PM	#14
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Here are my two "monkey" guns. Both came out of S.E. Asia, via CIA spooks, so no telling from what country. Click the link, and scroll down. If it was already stated, I missed it... What is the name of these guns? I found reference to a Chinese name, but no S.E. Asia names. M.P.http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=68848

14th March 2009, 12:22 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Trench, Just curious...what did the 'monkey gun' term come from? I always think the history behind a lot of these colloquial terms is fascinating, and it seems like a collection of them would make a great glossary here. Best regards, Jim

14th March 2009, 01:42 PM	#16
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	All I know is that they used to call my people monkeys, Chinamen, gooks, chinks, etc...?