SUMATRAN hilt? Or?

ganjawulung · 29th January 2009, 05:07 AM

Dear All,

I am still confused of this hilt. Is it Sumatran hilt? Or, somewhere else? I hope I would get more information on it from you... The hilt size is bigger than Yogyanese hilt, but smaller than Balinese (pls see the picture, for comparison).

GANJAWULUNG

Marcokeris · 29th January 2009, 06:11 AM

Congraturation Ganja!!
A nice, unique piece.
IMO is not from Sumatra but it comes from Madura area (floral style)

kulbuntet · 29th January 2009, 10:54 AM

Hi Ganja,

Look bit like...

I dont know were its from..but the keris wears a yogja wranka.

regards Michel

Rick · 29th January 2009, 02:47 PM

The hilt resembles this one which I was told was from North Jawa .

Sajen · 29th January 2009, 04:30 PM

Hello Ganja,
I also think that this hilt is from Madura or North-East Java. I also can show some examples. But this one is very nice and unique.
Regards,
Detlef

Rick · 30th January 2009, 03:49 AM

All these hilts share the same general shape .......

ganjawulung · 30th January 2009, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

IMO is not from Sumatra but it comes from Madura area (floral style)

At first I thought like you, Marco. But then, confused myself when I notice the 'different' style of the ornaments. Visually different with most maduran ornament...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

I dont know were its from..but the keris wears a yogja wranka.

Yours is Maduran style, as Marco mentioned, Michel...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The hilt resembles this one which I was told was from North Jawa .

Rick, (and also Detlef), thank you for the respond... I have an example too, old northern-coast Java keris hilt (pls see picture). But with rather different ornament with the ivory one...

GANJAWULUNG

David · 30th January 2009, 02:44 PM

I agree with Ganja, the floral motifs on this hilt are markedly different from all the other Madurese examples presented. What is even more a difference though is the presence of the animals represented on this hilt, the stag and the tiger. The other hilts are abstractions while this one is very representational. I'm not so sure it is from Madura either.

Rick · 30th January 2009, 04:15 PM

I wonder if in this case we should be looking at the shape rather than the carving .

They all have a N.Coast shape IMO ..

Madura interpretation of N.Coast work ???

Marcokeris · 30th January 2009, 10:33 PM

Imo the pattern in the nice ivory Ganja hit are very similar to the pattern of islamic (iranian ) carpet where there are hunters on horses and animals like deers, tigers, lions in a garden full of nice trees and flower: Italian name for this carpet is "tappeto da caccia" (hunter carpet). English name:

Alam Shah · 31st January 2009, 01:15 AM

Hi all, looking at ganja's hilt, reminds me of elaborately carved dha handles.. although this looks like a north coast keris hilt in shape.. just a thought..

erikscollectables · 31st January 2009, 06:08 PM

No idea about the background on this one but Ganja this is a really nice handle and well executed! Really love it!

Marcokeris the pattern reminds me of mideavel europe....Ireland?

Might it just be a special commision? Maybe even for a European or other foreigner.

What are the thoughts on the age of this handle? 19th century, earlier?

Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Imo the pattern in the nice ivory Ganja hit are very similar to the pattern of islamic (iranian ) carpet where there are hunters on horses and animals like deers, tigers, lions in a garden full of nice trees and flower: Italian name for this carpet is "tappeto da caccia" (hunter carpet). English name:

ganjawulung · 1st February 2009, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if in this case we should be looking at the shape rather than the carving .

They all have a N.Coast shape IMO ..

Madura interpretation of N.Coast work ???

Dear All,
I tend to agree with Rick. North Coast of Jawa. Maybe good too, if we compare the motifs of the lower-part of the ivory hilt (the base of the floral motifs) with "cirebonese motifs" (North Coast motifs) in Keraton Kasepuhan, Cirebon.

Pictures below, show you how the "wadasan" motifs (wadas = rock, but meant for the form of the sky above --- maybe 'cielo' in Spanish) at the upper-part of the white wall gate of Kasepuhan, look similar to the form of the (supposed to be) wadasan motifs in the lower-part of the hilt.

Wadasan is the main motifs, the specific characteristic of Cirebonese motifs until now. Derived from their philosophical symbol of 'sky' (probably: rock form of heaven in the sky...) they always used since their oldest Castle of Pakungwati in Keraton Kasepuhan (Cirebon old palace), built by Rakean Walangsungsang (fugitive son of famous Western Jawa Hindhu King, Siliwangi of Pajajaran) in the year of 1452 (15th century). Walangsungsang, and his younger sister Rara Santang fled from Hindhu Pajajaran, because they had turned to Islam religion. Walangsungsang then became Panembahan Cakrabuana, the first king of Pakungwati, Cirebon.

The Cirebonese motifs then turned to more abstract motifs, after the Islamic king of Sunan Gunung Jati or Syarif Hidayatullah. Gunung Jati, of Syarif Hidayatullah was the son of Rara Santang (younger sister of Walangsungsang) after married to a Middle-east nobleman -- when they went for Haj in Mekkah..

It is worth to see too, the other pictures below, picturing how "wadasan motifs" also influenced their keris culture. An old Cirebonese keris sheath, with "wadasan" motifs at the upper part of the gandar. Also, other variants of "wadasan motifs" in a Cirebon pedang handle...

Anyway, thank you David, Rick, Marco, Alamshah and Erik for your kind respond. Thanks...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 1st February 2009, 05:00 AM

Pictures below, more comparison on supposed to be "wadasan motifs" in the lower part of the hilt, and wadasan motifs in Cirebonese keris gandar...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 4th February 2009, 09:04 AM

Dear All,

Do you think this (supposed to be Cirebonese or Northern coast of Jawa) hilt fits in this (Riau) blade and Palembang sheath?

GANJAWULUNG

erikscollectables · 4th February 2009, 10:25 AM

Dear Ganjawulung

I like all three parts but I would not combine the hilt with this kris.
Although the combination looks very nice there does not seem to be the "fit" or "match" in style is my feeling. But this is only my personal subjective opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear All,

Do you think this (supposed to be Cirebonese or Northern coast of Jawa) hilt fits in this (Riau) blade and Palembang sheath?

GANJAWULUNG

BluErf · 4th February 2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear All,

Do you think this (supposed to be Cirebonese or Northern coast of Jawa) hilt fits in this (Riau) blade and Palembang sheath?

GANJAWULUNG

I think the hilt is too fat for the keris.

BluErf · 4th February 2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear All,

It is worth to see too, the other pictures below, picturing how "wadasan motifs" also influenced their keris culture. An old Cirebonese keris sheath, with "wadasan" motifs at the upper part of the gandar. Also, other variants of "wadasan motifs" in a Cirebon pedang handle...

GANJAWULUNG

Nice sheath! I have also heard comparisons of Cirebon motifs to Chinese ones. The clouds are similar to the way they are depicted in some Chinese relief carving. Another couple of motifs that were associated with Chinese influence are the chained swastika and the 'meandering belt'.

I can't find reference pics at the moment...

Sajen · 4th February 2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear All,

Do you think this (supposed to be Cirebonese or Northern coast of Jawa) hilt fits in this (Riau) blade and Palembang sheath?

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganja,
I also think that this hilt not adequate for this nice keris.
sajen

ganjawulung · 5th February 2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I think the hilt is too fat for the keris.

... and how about this? Does the hilt fit in this Javanese betok and "sandang walikat" warangka? Anyway, thanks a lot BluErf, Erik and Detlef for the comments...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 5th February 2009, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Nice sheath! I have also heard comparisons of Cirebon motifs to Chinese ones. The clouds are similar to the way they are depicted in some Chinese relief carving. Another couple of motifs that were associated with Chinese influence are the chained swastika and the 'meandering belt'.

I can't find reference pics at the moment...

Dear BluErf,

I have another "clouds motifs" or "rock motifs" (wadasan) on a Cirebonese keris sheath. But this is more "islamic" influence -- top of a mosque -- in motifs.

And I hope another example on what you mentioned as Chinese chained swastika, I have one but not Cirebonese. It is a "ladrang" (formal) Maduran sheath, with chained swastika or what BluErf said as 'meandering belt'?

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 5th February 2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

... and how about this? Does the hilt fit in this Javanese betok and "sandang walikat" warangka? Anyway, thanks a lot BluErf, Erik and Detlef for the comments...

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganja,

this fit very good. Like this composition very much.

Marcokeris · 5th February 2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear BluErf,

I have another "clouds motifs" or "rock motifs" (wadasan) on a Cirebonese keris ....
GANJAWULUNG

Very very nice

BluErf · 5th February 2009, 02:50 PM

Ah yes, the last pic shows the 'meandering belt'.

29th January 2009, 05:07 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	SUMATRAN hilt? Or? Dear All, I am still confused of this hilt. Is it Sumatran hilt? Or, somewhere else? I hope I would get more information on it from you... The hilt size is bigger than Yogyanese hilt, but smaller than Balinese (pls see the picture, for comparison). GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

29th January 2009, 02:47 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	The hilt resembles this one which I was told was from North Jawa . Attached Images

30th January 2009, 04:15 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	One Thing In Common I wonder if in this case we should be looking at the shape rather than the carving . They all have a N.Coast shape IMO .. Madura interpretation of N.Coast work ???

1st February 2009, 05:00 AM	#14
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	COMPARISON of Wadasan motifs Pictures below, more comparison on supposed to be "wadasan motifs" in the lower part of the hilt, and wadasan motifs in Cirebonese keris gandar... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

4th February 2009, 09:04 AM	#15
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	MIXED style Dear All, Do you think this (supposed to be Cirebonese or Northern coast of Jawa) hilt fits in this (Riau) blade and Palembang sheath? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

29th January 2009, 06:11 AM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Congraturation Ganja!! A nice, unique piece. IMO is not from Sumatra but it comes from Madura area (floral style)

29th January 2009, 10:54 AM	#3
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi Ganja, Look bit like... I dont know were its from..but the keris wears a yogja wranka. regards Michel

29th January 2009, 04:30 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,494	Hello Ganja, I also think that this hilt is from Madura or North-East Java. I also can show some examples. But this one is very nice and unique. Regards, Detlef

30th January 2009, 03:49 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	All these hilts share the same general shape .......

30th January 2009, 02:44 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	I agree with Ganja, the floral motifs on this hilt are markedly different from all the other Madurese examples presented. What is even more a difference though is the presence of the animals represented on this hilt, the stag and the tiger. The other hilts are abstractions while this one is very representational. I'm not so sure it is from Madura either.

30th January 2009, 10:33 PM	#10
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Imo the pattern in the nice ivory Ganja hit are very similar to the pattern of islamic (iranian ) carpet where there are hunters on horses and animals like deers, tigers, lions in a garden full of nice trees and flower: Italian name for this carpet is "tappeto da caccia" (hunter carpet). English name:

31st January 2009, 01:15 AM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi all, looking at ganja's hilt, reminds me of elaborately carved dha handles.. although this looks like a north coast keris hilt in shape.. just a thought..

5th February 2009, 02:50 PM	#24
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ah yes, the last pic shows the 'meandering belt'.