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Old 13th December 2008, 02:52 AM   #1
BluErf
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Default A Cirebon (put-together) keris

We often see Cirebon hilts floating around, not attached to Cirebon kerises. Also never really saw any good Cirebon kerises in private collections (ok, maybe Mr Karsten Jensen has a couple of really good ones). At least until recently when a fellow forumnite posted some pictures of a couple of superb Cirebon keris sheaths. But the question again - where are the Cirebon kerises!

Having half given-up hope on getting a decent Cirebon keris, this one came along. Ok, the blade is not original to the sheath, but at least it was patched nicely. Blade is bearable, but comes with a very nice scent. Someone has been treating the blade very nicely before selling it. It came with a nice Yogya hilt, which I have since transposed onto a Yogya keris. And on it, I've placed a hilt I got from another fellow forumnite. I tried a few wooden ones, but those were black, and black-hilt-on-black-sheath just doesn't cut it. So on goes this slightly eclectic hilt. So there it is - my Cirebon (put-together) keris, and I think its quite decent (at least from my extremely limited understanding of Cirebon kerises)
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Old 13th December 2008, 07:15 AM   #2
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The hilt doesn't look Cirebon to me
Isn't it from the NE coast?

Michael
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Old 13th December 2008, 09:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
The hilt doesn't look Cirebon to me
Isn't it from the NE coast?

Michael

it's also my opinion
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Old 13th December 2008, 12:34 PM   #4
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Ya, I suppose the hilt is more Tegal than Cirebon. But I guess Tegal, being 100km away from Cirebon only, could be pretty "close cousins".

Maybe until I get an ivory or bone Cirebon hilt, I guess I'd be keeping the hilt on the keris 1st. At any rate, beats being matched with the Yogya hilt, I think!
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Old 13th December 2008, 02:20 PM   #5
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BluErf
Your nice ivory hit could be from Tegal (of course Cirebon style)... but there is something in the form (Nyamba ???) that tell me it could also comes from the area that runs from Madura till to the Jawa's cost in front of Balý.
To explain better i put here a photo of a hit that, i suppose, comes from this area.
About the blade IMO it could be done in Madura
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Last edited by Marcokeris : 13th December 2008 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 13th December 2008, 11:54 PM   #6
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Hey Marcos,

That's a mighty interesting hilt you have!

Pg63 of Kerner's big book has a set of 4 pics of hilts attributed to the Nyamba style. Kerner wrote (ok, we have take with a pinch of salt) that Nyamba hilts were known only as metal hilts, and those 4 examples had almost a comical look. Yours had the same features, but a more dignified look, and not covered in motifs.

Though one question - is Nyamba a city or region name? Was trying to google to find out, but they led to keris auction descriptions and not much else.

Perhaps Tunggulametung could help throw some light on where my hilt was acquired?

And the blade - oh yes, definitely there's a chance it came from Madura. But at any rate, it's bearable. The few older Cirebon sheaths I've seen almost always was made for blades with big robust ganja. So that's something to be said about the current small petite little blade in it.
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Old 14th December 2008, 12:58 AM   #7
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Try googling nyamba + wayang---that'll give you answers.

Blade is dhapur kebo kanthong, its Javanese.
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Old 14th December 2008, 02:02 AM   #8
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Thanks Alan. Another question - could this dhapur be attributed to a more specific region of Java, or can this reasonably be found in many parts of Java?
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Old 14th December 2008, 02:18 AM   #9
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I do not know.

However, I would think that Jawa Tengah might be a better bet than Jawa Timur, or Banten. This dhapur always seems to be a light blade, it lacks the basic characteristics of places other than Jawa Tengah --- but when I say that, we need to bear in mind the historic association of Jawa Tengah with the North Coast. In the hand you could probably offer a guess based on tangguh applied to the material.If you came up with sufficient that fitted the same tangguh, then you could offer a little more certainty. I've actually seen quite a few that were tangguh Gresik, but Gresik was renowned for copying earlier patterns from Pajajaran and Majapahit, so that probably doesn't mean much.
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Old 14th December 2008, 03:12 PM   #10
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Hello BluErf,

Probably better to wait until next time you find a decent Cirebon set one as the hilt seems need to be retired, but that's just an opinion; or at least get a temporary mendak to compliment the set and remember don't fit too tight . The hilt was acquired in Jakarta from someone who knows too little about keris. Without having sufficient reference, at first I thought it was Sumatran as I don't recognize the ornament. But DD from Germany inform me that it is Nyamba style, to which I later agree even it is different from what I previously preceive as Nyamba style.

To my knowledge Nyamba style is a wayang figure inspired hilt. But why Samba? I don't know. On Ensiklopedi Wayang Purwa (seems to be extracted from different sources), there are two characters of Samba, the first one is Sanghyang Samba, later known as Sanghyang Batara Guru. The second one is Samba the son of Sri Kresna, an army chief commander who usually supported by Batara Durga when he needs help. But what interesting is Samba as also known as Wisnubrata in Central Java is not an idol figure while in West Java he is an ideal/brave army figure. Another interesting information is that in Madura, Samba often described with a tail since her mother is Dewi Jembawati is a daughter of resi Jembawan-a monkey character. So maybe West Java?

I think this Samba hilt relates to the so we known as Cirebon Raksasa or Jawa Demam up to whatever similar in the Malay/Bugis world. But as usual it just a wild guest (to put it better: an imagination without enough reference), I might be unable to proof. Just observe at the figure, which so similar with Cirebon Raksasa. As for where its originates, maybe anywhere with wayang background. But how about the idea of Banten/Bantam? Cirebon was once under this kingdom right? Anyone has a reference?

As we know wayang in Islam period is dehumanized figure (do I use the right term to described "formed into less human like"? ), perhaps the same case in the keris world. Your hilt has the relatively similar hand position but not showing a mudra finger (or it is the stylized ornament between the hands?), but the hand position itself may reflect certain meaning (ancestral?). Further more it might be transformed further to what suit Islam better, a folded hand and the more non-creature or say human like Jawa Demam. All the bird/garuda-like figure on keris world might be a later explanation IMO.

P.S: I remember Adrian Noe's collection has a similar hilt, the one made of gold but the head is lion (?) - sorry I'm not able to find the webpage anymore. It's not a Javanese set, maybe a Sumatran kind.
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Old 14th December 2008, 04:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunggulametung
P.S: I remember Adrian Noe's collection has a similar hilt, the one made of gold but the head is lion (?) - sorry I'm not able to find the webpage anymore. It's not a Javanese set, maybe a Sumatran kind.


Is this the hilt you are referring to? If so Noe had it's origins listed as Banjarmasin.

Kai Wee, i love this dhapur and have a very similar one in my own collection. I have also seen it identified as Kebo Giri. Does anyone know if this is a correct name variation or just a common keris misnomer?
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Old 14th December 2008, 04:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Is this the hilt you are referring to? If so Noe had it's origins listed as Banjarmasin.

Kai Wee, i love this dhapur and have a very similar one in my own collection. I have also seen it identified as Kebo Giri. Does anyone know if this is a correct name variation or just a common keris misnomer?
Magic, yes Sir that is the one!
Kebo Giri I would call the dhapur.
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Old 14th December 2008, 07:50 PM   #13
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IMO the A. Noe hit could be also not comes from Kalimantan because Navasari usually has flowers in the hand (sometimes in together hands).
This hit has not flowers and no hand on the back. In true the face seems Navasari Banjarmasin (and also red stones could be from this place) but...i think it could also comes from Jawa or Bali (for bronze or brass material, for position of the body, for ornaments)
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Old 14th December 2008, 09:07 PM   #14
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Dhapur names and pamor names can and do change from area to area, from demographic to demographic, and from time to time.

Especially those dhapurs and pamors which are uncommon.

The dhapur of the blade shown by Kai Wee was identified by a spiritual advisor to President Suharto, who was also a mystic and a well known keris collector, as Dhapur Laler Mengeng. This was thirty years ago.

Ten years ago in Jogja it was identified as Mahesa Kanthong by a 70 year old dealer.

At the present time Haryono Haryoguritno identifies it as Kebo Kanthong.

Tunggulametung identifies it as Kebo Giri.

Take your pick.

David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?
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Old 14th December 2008, 09:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

Hi Alan. I have seen it called Kebo Giri in a number of places including one shown previously of this forum and eBay auctions. But it is also so named in Ensiklopedi Keris:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cV...num=6&ct=result
I am aware that in some cases numerous names can be considered correct, but sometimes things get mislabeled and then the misinformation is past on until it becomes the accepted name. So i am not inclined to automatically accept a name just because i have seen it used before.
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Old 14th December 2008, 11:20 PM   #16
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Thanks David. I tend not to look at Ensiklopedi much.

Yeah, things do get mis-labelled, and the labels stick. My feeling towards this is that as long as it is within the culture it probably doesn't matter all that much. We've got kraton pakems, and I guess they need to be the last word, but naming of anything in Jawa is far from standardised. In fact the language itself---Javanese---is regarded by linguists as a non-standardised language, so I'm never going to get into a debate about the "correct" name of anything.

As I said:- take your pick.
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Old 15th December 2008, 07:46 PM   #17
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Further to comments in respect of the dhapur of this blade.

A check of the Surakarta pakem reveals that Kebo Kanthong is not shown in this pakem; neither is Kebo Giri, nor Mahesa Kanthong; Laler Mengeng is shown , and although it has the salient features of Kai Wee's blade, those features are interpreted differently.

In the volume that contains this pakem, a number of dhapurs are listed that are acknowledged as not appearing in the original pakem.

This list does not contain the names of any of the dhapur that I have mentioned above, but it does contain the name of Mahesa Kanthong.

Now here is something interesting:-

"kebo" is low level Javanese (ngoko) for "water buffalo"

"mahesa" ( or maesa) is high level Javanese (krama) for "water buffalo"

Since keris terminology should probably be given in krama, rather ngoko, it would seem that although "kebo" this, that and the other, in reference to dhapur is the common usage, the correct usage could perhaps be taken to be "Mahesa Kanthong".

From where I'm standing, it looks like my old dealer informant of some years ago was the person who was perhaps closest to the mark
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Old 15th December 2008, 09:12 PM   #18
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BluErf
Your dapur from Empu Jeno
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Old 16th December 2008, 02:31 PM   #19
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hii bluErf your hilt look like "cirebon" Rajamala.
name of dapur : Kebo Kanthong sad myfrend from araound jogja and solo. Kebo Giri or Mahesa Giri ( ens.Keris and in some places).thats make me confuse when i looking for this dapur i love.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newre...uote=1&p=74148#
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:12 AM   #20
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Default here my,,

sheath old sandang walikat madura model ,gaharu wood.pendok alpakah and turtle skin.hilt: hope i find an old danukriyo hilt or maybe ganesa cirebon or tegal.tangguh pajajaran.(still "nangguh ora sunguh!" he he,,)
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Old 17th December 2008, 02:18 PM   #21
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Whoa, what a flood of discussion and information! Seems like we are not getting much leverage on the hilt form, but I guess that is to be expected of the fringe areas around the centres of Solo and Yogya.

To Tunggulametung - don't worry, the hilt is not fixed tightly. I would change it when I get another bone/ivory Cirebon hilt.


As for the use of mendak with Cirebon kerises, I noticed that the older style Cirebon hilts come with selut. If it has a selut, does it still need a mendak?
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Old 17th December 2008, 09:25 PM   #22
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Kai Wee, you ask:-

"If it has a selut, does it still need a mendak?"

This is probably a good question.

In present day terms, the answer is definitely "yes".

However, the couple of 100% original Cirebon keris I have both came without mendak, but with iron selut.

There were iron mendak, and I suspect that complete, correct dress would be with an iron mendak, however, on the other hand, many old, 100% original, un-played with keris that I have had in my hands from East Jawa and from Bali/Lombok, did not have mendak or wewer.

I suspect that it is possible that the dress convention of the mendak is a comparatively recent one, that was not always followed, especially on lower level pieces, in earlier days.
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Old 20th December 2008, 11:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
As for the use of mendak with Cirebon kerises, I noticed that the older style Cirebon hilts come with selut. If it has a selut, does it still need a mendak?
IMO it depends on the selut style. Sometimes the selut has a closing end leaving a hole for the peksi, but some other time it has an open end and simply intended to strengthen the hilt from crack despite of its decorative purpose. Maybe somebody else have an opinion about another purpose of mendak other than decorative purpose? I would say the space created by mendak will maximize the grip and intended for holder's safety againts his own blade.
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Old 21st December 2008, 05:14 AM   #24
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Default SELUT, CIREBON KERIS AND KEBO KANTONG

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunggulametung
IMO it depends on the selut style. Sometimes the selut has a closing end leaving a hole for the peksi, but some other time it has an open end and simply intended to strengthen the hilt from crack despite of its decorative purpose. Maybe somebody else have an opinion about another purpose of mendak other than decorative purpose? I would say the space created by mendak will maximize the grip and intended for holder's safety againts his own blade.


Dear Tunggul Ametung, BlueErf and All,

Most kerises with Cirebon sheaths, hilts and seluts I found, existed without mendhak. But some of them, I found with very simple mendhak, and almost no decoration (as I show you below) on the mendhak. The function? At least it was a decorative purpose.

I am showing you too, "Tegal Keris, Sheath, and Hilt". The size is about the same with most Cirebon kerises -- 44 cm (17,5 inches) not including the pesi. It is longer and bigger than most Central Javanese kerises. About the same size too with normal Banten (Bantam) kerises. Kingdoms (Kasultanan, Sultanate) of Cirebon in the north coast of Central Jawa and Banten in the north-west of West Jawa had political and family relation in the past (16th-17th century). Tegal, is only 100 km from Cirebon.

Showing you too, another style of Cirebon Sheath and Keris, with Jawa Demam hilts (carved ivory). And for comparison, I am showing you too a Solonese (Central Jawa) keris. Cirebon kerises are mostly bigger than the other Javanese kerises. Showing you also, a keris with dhapur of "Kebo Kantong" (as mentioned by Alan). It is usually found in most parts of Jawa (I found this Kebo Kantong in Banyumas Area in the western part of Central Jawa).

Hope it will help you...

GANJAWULUNG (Dec 21, 2008)[/SIZE]
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Old 25th December 2008, 01:28 AM   #25
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Thanks for sharing, Ganjawulung! Wow, droool...

So the teratai form from Tegal? Would Cirebon have the teratai form of wrangka?

The Jawa Demam hilt looks very S. Sumatran! If it is from Cirebon, then that puts the origin of Jawa Demam in Cirebon, spreading to Sumatra and Malaya!
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Old 30th December 2008, 10:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
So the teratai form from Tegal? Would Cirebon have the teratai form of wrangka?

The Jawa Demam hilt looks very S. Sumatran! If it is from Cirebon, then that puts the origin of Jawa Demam in Cirebon, spreading to Sumatra and Malaya!

I am not sure, BluErf, whether this kind of warangka form was originally from Tegal or not. Because, some of old Cirebon and Banten collections also found with this kind of style.
I don't think Jawa Deman is originally from Cirebon. But, as a coastal region that influenced by some foreign culture from abroad, some Cirebon kerises I found in this area, wore this kind of hilt.

GANJAWULUNG
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Old 3rd October 2012, 08:57 PM   #27
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Would like to add a few pictures to this thread.
(I was very lucky and very happy last week. still happy this week btw

Bets regards,
Willem
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