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Old 25th September 2008, 06:58 PM   #1
Matchlock
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Default A unique 1530's tinder snap-lock haquebut

... in a private collection (but not mine).

Overall length 153 cm, barrel 117 cm, caliber 19 cm, weight overall 8 kilograms.

Wrought-iron round and staged barrel decorated with stylized snakes, lozenge ornament and trifoliate decoration in the shape of three dots, and struck twice with a mark, an unidentified shield. Rectangular back sight with aperture for inserting an interchangeable sheet of metal pierced for narrowing the shooter's sight and making him concentrate on the fore sight.

Note the small, round powder pan with its swiveling cover, the "lengthened" muzzle section characteristic of the 1520's to the 1530's and the limewood stock painted green. The tinder snap-lock with the horizontally acting push-button trigger has been introduced by the example of an even earlier detached mechanism here before.

Similiar barrels are quite common in museums in Thuriniga/East Germany, especially in the Waffenmuseum Suhl and the Schloss Heidecksburg in Rudolstadt. This, among other features, makes me believe that they were wrought by earliest Suhl workshops in the 1530's which had come over from Nuremberg where barrel smiths had faced encreasing unemployment since at least the early 1530's.

Michael
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Old 25th September 2008, 07:06 PM   #2
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Old 25th September 2008, 07:16 PM   #3
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Caliber is 19 mm, of course, instead of 19 cm.

Also note the roped decoration marking the barrel stages and the long muzzle section (head) left free by the stockmaker. We have noticed that stylistic feature on many hand firearms ranging from ca. 1520 to the early 1540's.
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Old 27th September 2008, 01:10 AM   #4
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In looking at this great example of an early firearm, and determined to learn more about these 'guns' (for me basically starting from scratch my questions and initial reading as always leans toward terminology and etymology of those used.

Having difficulty finding definitions of harquebus/ hackbut or hagbut, references I found suggest that the harquebus term is also 'arquebus' which was easier to find. The German hakinbihse = hook gun, referring to the bent shape of the butt, as opposed to the straight stocked guns. One other explanation suggested a metal hook near the muzzle to take aim and secure for recoil.

Apparantly improvements by Strozzi c.1530 included standardizing calibers of these in French army. The musket followed about the 1570's.

As always I am keyed to markings, and on the barrel notice the roped design at locations around the barrel , and these remind me of barrel rings to secure the barrel, stylistically of course. It seems that in many cases with weapons, the shapes and designs in features sometimes recall vestigially things no longer required or used. I am curious though, why actual bands would not be secured around the barrel to hold it to the stock.

I notice the fletching marking, which recalls of course the arrow, and wonder about the suggestion to the esteemed crossbow. The arrow marking became well known with the establishing of ordnance department by Henry VIII in England (these with the arrow head) but I wonder if the idea of the fletching the intent might have been in concept of the shot flying true to its target?
The three dots are well known in markings in many instances in sword blades and likely carry the often discussed symbolism.
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Old 19th October 2008, 11:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
In looking at this great example of an early firearm, and determined to learn more about these 'guns' (for me basically starting from scratch my questions and initial reading as always leans toward terminology and etymology of those used.

Having difficulty finding definitions of harquebus/ hackbut or hagbut, references I found suggest that the harquebus term is also 'arquebus' which was easier to find. The German hakinbihse = hook gun, referring to the bent shape of the butt, as opposed to the straight stocked guns. One other explanation suggested a metal hook near the muzzle to take aim and secure for recoil.

Apparantly improvements by Strozzi c.1530 included standardizing calibers of these in French army. The musket followed about the 1570's.

As always I am keyed to markings, and on the barrel notice the roped design at locations around the barrel , and these remind me of barrel rings to secure the barrel, stylistically of course. It seems that in many cases with weapons, the shapes and designs in features sometimes recall vestigially things no longer required or used. I am curious though, why actual bands would not be secured around the barrel to hold it to the stock.

I notice the fletching marking, which recalls of course the arrow, and wonder about the suggestion to the esteemed crossbow. The arrow marking became well known with the establishing of ordnance department by Henry VIII in England (these with the arrow head) but I wonder if the idea of the fletching the intent might have been in concept of the shot flying true to its target?
The three dots are well known in markings in many instances in sword blades and likely carry the often discussed symbolism.



Hi Jim,

Actually, the term Hakenbüchse does not derive from a hooked stock (in fact, all stocks before ca. 1520 were more or less quite straight!) but from the iron support hook welded to the underside of the barrels from ca. 1430 onwards.

Best,
Michael
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Old 20th October 2008, 04:58 AM   #6
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for the clarification on the origin of the term. In the reference I had it gave two options, so its good to know the correct one.
Great to have you back!!!

All the best,
Jim
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Old 22nd October 2008, 06:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Michael,
Thank you for the clarification on the origin of the term. In the reference I had it gave two options, so its good to know the correct one.
Great to have you back!!!

All the best,
Jim



Jim, I realized that you gave two options. Please forgive me for not discussing them in detail.
Thanks to your messsages, my friend. I have only got a tiny lucky chance to grasp a bit of your wide competence comprising arms, literature, philosophy and the real life...

My bad: I forgot to mention that the word hook, among others, derives from the German term Haken meaning hook. I feel that this makes clear the direct deduction.

All the best to you, my friend!!! Keep trackin' ...
Michael
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Old 2nd November 2008, 12:08 AM   #8
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Default 500 year old guns with green stocks

From the Maximilianische Zeugbücher, illustrated in watercolors by Jörg Kölderer et.al., Innsbruck, ca., 1505-7.

In former posts I mentioned the colors red and green as being especially characteristic of clothes and arts and crafts of the late Gothic/early Renaisssance periods.

Michael
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Old 22nd December 2014, 08:16 AM   #9
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Hello everyone! Now i'm attenpting to make something like replica of this gun, and I've met a dilemma concerning its colour. It is obviously seen that under a layer of green paint there is dark wood toning. I wonder whether it might be an original stock colour, and paint layer is just more recent, like in Vienna museum, or the wooden surface could be treated to such tone under exposure of oil (or somewhat other) paint.

This is the only stock I found that is painted in such a bright colour, and i've found pretty few images showing coloured guns - all from "Bartholomaeus Freysleben: Inventarium über Büchsen und Zeug im Kaiserreich zur Zeit Maximilians I. Innsbruck 1495-1500."

Maybe you could help me to determine whether to paint the stock green or just to tone it dark.

Thank for attention. If it is interesting, I'll show photos of my replica after I'll finish
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Old 22nd December 2014, 11:05 AM   #10
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Hi Ister,

Welcome to the forum.

For a contemporary short Landsknecht snap tinderlock arquebus, ca. 1525-30, the stock also painted green, please see my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...goto=nextnewest

and here:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/329185053984236124/

I have done research on several 500-year-old guns with stocks painted either in a darker or lighter green or reddish, and I did extensive research on both this haquebut and that short arquebus, including scratching off tiny particles of their paint - both were absolutely original; the wood underneath the layer of paint in both cases was limewood, and it looked rather dark.

The problem is that medieval layers of pain on caskets and other furniture have never been researched in laboratories, let alone varnishes on weapons. So we actually know very little about their consistency and the treatment of the wood underneath 500 years ago.


Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 22nd December 2014 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 12:13 PM   #11
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Thank you Michael! Now I'm sure paint it green)

Paul
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