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Old 7th August 2007, 02:10 AM   #1
CharlesS
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Default A Kampillan...But Moro???

I have just received this kampillan and once in hand it really got my curiosity up, because it has a lot of somewhat unique features. I am wondering if it is Moro at all, but I think if it is Moro it is not from the Philippines.

VVV and I had a nice discussion this summer regarding the widespread use of the kampillan, and I am wondering if this piece may be from Borneo or even Sulawesi.

The blade is nice, yet not unique...it is a standard nicely laminated blade, but what is unique:

*short "crocodile jaws"....very little "open mouth"

*smaller hilt overall, with shorter, thinner crossguard

*hair is not attached in plugs glued into holes, but is attached in a long thin groove-like
opening rather than holes

*unique talismans; other than the tiger bells, these do not appear to be typical to
Moro kampillans

I'd like some feedback from others on the possible origins of this sword. I am wondering if anyone is thinking like I am??
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Old 7th August 2007, 02:13 AM   #2
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You get the most interesting pieces. I do not know enough about Kampilan to comment but an interesting example and those look like tiger bells but I could be wrong. There are references for tiger bells on Kampilan nad tiger bells can be found in Sulawesi


http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/indonesi.htm

And tiger bells are seen in the Philippines

http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/details.htm
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Old 7th August 2007, 02:33 AM   #3
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Tiger bells look a bit like the ones of the Iban. http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/details.htm#start but far from definitive.
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Old 7th August 2007, 04:11 AM   #4
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I will picture next week the borneo collection from the Nijmweegse Museum so will sure look at these Bells


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Old 7th August 2007, 04:27 AM   #5
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can you id the hair at all? orangutan?
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Old 7th August 2007, 05:55 AM   #6
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ARTZI POSTED A SIMULAR KAMPILIAN A WHILE BACK SO YOU MIGHT LOOK FOR HIS POST OR CONTACT HIM. THE HAIR IS MOST LIKELY GOAT ,ORANGATAN IS NOT AS COURSE AS THAT APPEARS TO BE. I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY GOOD REFRENCES ON KAMPILIANS GIVING THEIR RANGE OR THE NUMBER OF TRIBES USING THEM BUT ALSO SUSPECT THIS IS NOT A PURE PHILIPPINE MORO KAMPILIAN. NICE KAMPILIAN AND A NICE HEAVY WATERED STEEL BLADE WHEREVER ITS FROM.
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Old 7th August 2007, 09:53 AM   #7
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Great Kampilan!

I think this is another example of the older style, maybe pre-mid 19th C, of kampilan before the later, large "crocodile jaw" became more popular.
It seems as those were extinct already during the Spanish American war which probaby is the reason why they seldom are seen in US collections.
The talismanic (?) hairy "hang-on" are also sometimes found on those kampilan (example below).
Another even more rare style is the horse head hilt. Examples of those are found on the pictures in Cato p. 53 and van Z p. 93.
My understanding is that the kampilan is a tribal (Illanun tribe), not a geographical weapon. This nomadic sailing tribe is found in Mindanao as well as Sabah (Borneo), Sulawesi and Timor.
Among people who has emigrated from their original culture old style and habits lasts longer.
An example is my mother who left Denmark in the late 50's. A Danish friend of mine was excited after talking with her because even if she of course spoke perfect Danish it was like "watching an old movie". Her Danish hadn't changed since the 50's and she had no new expressions from the last 50 years as well as some expressions and words that nowadays no modern Dane would use.
But of course it's still Danish as your kampilan still is Illanun...

Michael
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Old 7th August 2007, 10:37 AM   #8
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Thanks for the input guys.

Excelllent info Michael.

I also neglected to mention that the kampillan is about 6 inches shorter and considerably lighter than any other in my collection.
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Old 7th August 2007, 02:23 PM   #9
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Hello Charles,

Thanks for posting these pics! You really get the nicest toys! <drooling>

I wonder why nobody mentioned it yet: If you ever want to let this piece go, please drop me a line, pretty please...


Quote:
*short "crocodile jaws"....very little "open mouth"

I don't think this was ever intended to represent an animal.


Quote:
*hair is not attached in plugs glued into holes, but is attached in a long thin groove-like opening rather than holes

Could you please show a close-up? The decoration at the bottom side of the hilt still seems to be applied in tufts.


Quote:
*unique talismans; other than the tiger bells, these do not appear to be typical to Moro kampillans

The attached tassle seems to be close but slightly different from Michael's.

BTW, attached bundles of hair like in your example seem to be more widespread in the area. Are these documented from any non-headhunting culture?

Quote:
I'd like some feedback from others on the possible origins of this sword. I am wondering if anyone is thinking like I am??

Illanum seems to be a good guess - possibly more East than Borneo...

Regards,
Kai
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Old 7th August 2007, 02:34 PM   #10
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Hello Michael,

Quote:
I think this is another example of the older style, maybe pre-mid 19th C, of kampilan before the later, large "crocodile jaw" became more popular.

It seems as those were extinct already during the Spanish American war which probaby is the reason why they seldom are seen in US collections.

I think I saw at least an intermediate example which apparently originated from Mindanao but I agree that this seems to be an old-style hilt which probably went out of fashion in Mindanao.

Quote:
Among people who has emigrated from their original culture old style and habits lasts longer.

I agree; however, that also means that some of these "expat kampilan" don't have to be as old! (Some obviously are pretty old though...)

Regards,
Kai
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Old 7th August 2007, 04:02 PM   #11
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Hi Kai,

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I agree; however, that also means that some of these "expat kampilan" don't have to be as old! (Some obviously are pretty old though...)


I agree on that

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Illanum seems to be a good guess - possibly more East than Borneo...


Sorry Kai but I don't think Illanun is a guess, but a fact, on Kampilan.
And I don't see why it has to be more East?
Resembling ones can be found in old European collections collected both in Mindanao as in Sabah (f.i. Eduard Sonne collection and Museo Militar in Madrid).

Michael
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Old 7th August 2007, 04:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Hi Kai,




Sorry Kai but I don't think Illanun is a guess, but a fact, on Kampilan.
And I don't see why it has to be more East?
Resembling ones can be found in old European collections collected both in Mindanao as in Sabah (f.i. Eduard Sonne collection and Museo Militar in Madrid).

Michael

Hi Michael, I can't find too much about the Illanum. They seem to be mentioned whenever there is old accounts about pirates. I found the "Encyclopaedia of S.E.A. Ethnograpy" to be usefull in finding out about different groups. When it come to Illanum, they have very little; except to say they are closely related to the Maguindanao. As traders & pirates, I would think it is safer to say, they likely "adapted" the Kampilan from another group or that it's origin came from the Maguindanao & the Illanum may have spread it through the region.
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Old 7th August 2007, 05:50 PM   #13
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Arrow Diaspora

From my understanding the Iranun/Ilanun inhabited Mindanao; at some point they were driven from their location due to volcanic activity and eventually were spread throughout the area as mercenaries and pirates. I have also read that they were among the most accomplished of smiths in the S. Philippines.

I believe this info can be found in Warren's The Sulu Zone .
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Old 7th August 2007, 09:13 PM   #14
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Charles comment about the overall length being a good 6" less than typical Kampilan along with the fabric "wrist loop" makes me wonder if this piece would be a good size to utilize on board a ship.
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Old 7th August 2007, 09:25 PM   #15
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Sorry Bill and Kai,

I was obviously a bit clumsy in my statement above.
I meant that it is a fact if, implicit, it belonged to an expat (= outside Mindanao).
On origin I have read that they came from Lake Lanao.
Doesn't that imply that they are closer to the Maranao?
There is a lot of information on the Illanun and their customs in old books describing ex-British North Borneo (= Sabah nowadays).

Michael
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Old 8th August 2007, 07:05 PM   #16
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I was thinking ( ) and there might be another possibility - could it be Bagobo - they were in proximity to the Moros and many Lumad tribes like this borrowed or were influenced by Moros. Bells like these were used by some of the Lumad tribes. I have seen tiger bells like these on some Bagobo pieces.
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Old 8th August 2007, 07:06 PM   #17
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I was thinking ( ) and there might be another possibility - could it be Bagobo - they were in proximity to the Moros and many Lumad tribes like this borrowed or were influenced by Moros. Bells like these were used by some of the Lumad tribes. I have seen tiger bells like these on some Bagobo pieces, and I think they tended to use slightly lighter pieces in weight.
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Old 11th August 2007, 05:02 PM   #18
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Great Kampilan Charlse,

Similar kampilans was brought up on this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=570

I had a nice conversation with Zel about these. He was in Cotabato City a few months back doing research on the the ceremonial aspect of the Moro culture.

Hopefully he can share some of his research and insights on these.
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Old 14th August 2007, 10:20 PM   #19
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Tiger bells where used from thailand india Philipine to Borneo
It is no indication off country or people.


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Old 15th August 2007, 01:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
Tiger bells where used from thailand india Philipine to Borneo
It is no indication off country or people.


Ben

Although this is true, in the Philippines, most Moros did not use them and you are more likely to see them among the Bagobo and other Lumad tribes. None among the Igorot tribes in the north for example.
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Old 18th August 2007, 08:32 AM   #21
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Hi I found the drawing in the book off Hein he tells this is from the Sundajak on North Borneo page 347 fig. 76



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Old 18th August 2007, 08:48 AM   #22
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Old 18th August 2007, 09:24 AM   #23
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We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.

On the tiger bell issue I agree with Ben. I find it hard to believe that all the large Kampilan with tiger bells you see now and then are Bagobo?

Michael
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Old 18th August 2007, 09:29 AM   #24
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Here some pics off dajak kampilans
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Old 18th August 2007, 07:36 PM   #25
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VVV,

I am not necessarily saying that all kamkpilans with tiger bells are Bagobo, but that many with these can be Bagobo or Bagobo influenced, although I had forgotton about Borneo, where trade was common.
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Old 18th August 2007, 09:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.



Michael



Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see


and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben
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Old 19th August 2007, 12:52 AM   #27
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Hi Ben,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see


Hein didn't visit Borneo but made his studies in European museums and libraries.
Evans based his research both on older local sources as well as field studies among the different tribes.
Visiting villages and interviewing f.i. swordmakers about what weapons they produced and what weapons their ancestors produced.
He also researched what weapons that were used by the different tribes and where they came from if not locally made.
Evans' book is focused on in depth describing the Dusuns (p. 79 - 193) and the Bajau & Illanuns (p. 194 - 273).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .


Hein based the name Sundajak (see note 2 on page 348) on the publication by Dr Eduard Sonne; Die Bewohner Britisch-Nord-Borneos mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Badjohs, Tumbonoas und Sundajaks (1893).

Badjohs is probably Bajaus. Tumbonoas is probably Tambatuan (which isn't a tribe but a district inhabitated by the Dusun tribe) and I find it quite probable that Sun is Dusun.
The reason for that is that no other source I have read about dayak tribes in North Borneo mentions the existence of any tribe named Sun.
If it exists, or ever existed, please give me a reference for this and I will of course change my conclusion?
I have gone through the major 6 works on Sabah Dayak tribes but found nothing on any tribe called Sun.
Also it would be extremely strange if Sonne didn't include the Dusun when describing major tribes in ex-British North Borneo?
That would be like neglecting Iban if describing tribes in Sarawak.

The reason Evans don't mention Parang Sangkit is that he doesn't write about the Muruts in his book.
Hein isn't 100% impressing on this as he isn't sure if the Sangkit is from Borneo or Sulu (see p. 343) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben


Please explain how this, probably interesting, article contributes to our discussion?

What's interesting is that Evans describes the weapons of Dusun as "largely procured from other tribes".
He lists the pida (barong), the pedang, parang ilang/gayang and sundang/serundang/kris as the Dusun swords - not the kampilan.

In the Bajau & Illanun weapon descriptions he writes (p. 253-254):

"...while the long Illanun sword, the kompilan, with its curiously carved and flattened handle, and its blade, narrow near the hilt, but broad and heavy at the point, came from Mindanao, the place of origin of the Illanuns themselves. Types of handle and blade somewhat similar to that of the kompilan are, however, found in islands farther to the east, notably Celebes and Timor."

Michael
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Old 19th August 2007, 05:52 AM   #28
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Hi Michael
The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong .
Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did .
Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ???
Can you explain that to me .


Ben
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Old 19th August 2007, 10:08 AM   #29
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Hi Ben,

We are discussing the Kampilan and Borneo tribes that used the Kampilan.
I don't mind discussing the Murut but then I think it's more proper that we should do it in another thread than this.

1. Are you claiming that studying the Murut shares some insight in the distribution and use of the Kampilan in North Borneo?

2. Ling Roth is one of the 6 sources I have used to see if there ever existed a tribe called the Sun Dayak.
Ling Roth lists all tribes and sub-tribes in detail but doesn't mention the Sun Dayaks.
Have you fund any proof of that there ever existed a tribe in North Borneo named Sun, unless it's another name of the Dusun?

3. Of course nobody is perfect but in what way is Evans wrong regarding Kampilan and Dusun vs Bajau & Illanun?

Studying from other sources alone, like Hein and van Zonneveld, is of course dependant on the quality of the sources and the understanding of them. There is often a higher risk of misunderstandings than doing your own research on the field, as Evans did.
The same for us two (even if I have at least visited North Borneo twice and met the tribes IRL, but unfortunately after they stopped using the Kampilan.).


Michael

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Old 19th August 2007, 10:35 AM   #30
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Hi Michael what I am trying to say that it is mostly time blocks like 1800-1825
1825-1850 in movement and changes like from kampilan / mandau to gun .

....tribes disapear .....

....new tribes coming .....

So that is always difficult I never visit Borneo but now a little bit more about the mandau Jimpul than most off the people that live there (Because now they make shows overthere to please the tourist people)so that is no excuse If some one has been there or not it is only an time moment ( I did visit bali in 2001 and in 2006 and did see a lot off difference in only 5 years ,
what you think there will more difference if I wait 25 years .

The best mandau Jimpuls Kampilans are out side Borneo / Philipine why the wood from the old mandau or kampilan suvived because they where taken early from there)

Stone did thell the kampilan is used bij the seadajaks he might have seen a few with kampilan s it is also not sure if the kampilan find his roots in the philipine we do not now 100 % maybe it was coming from celebes timor and developt bij the philipine people there is not 100% proof.

It is always hard to find out the right tings mostly many idea s and if Evans say so maybe hein tell different but who to believe .


(maybe we want Evans to belive because we like his story but is it true Evans did go out by him self
Hein did take a few people that have been there and study so I am like more a few people telling somthing than only stay with one person .)

And if we take a look at the map we can see that Evans not get an great area because he would have seen that the murut s are there would also tell some about the murut s .

some pic s off my kampilan I think this one is from Boneo

Ben
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