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Old 23rd April 2007, 06:27 PM   #1
carlos
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Default Unusual Kampilan

This Kampilan belongs to a friend, he has several weapons from Philippines than one familiar of him bring back to Spain in 1993. Is a very rare Kampilan, and my question is if this kampilan is a real and authentic kampilan or is some made for the tourist ( in 1893) ? Thanks
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Old 24th April 2007, 12:33 AM   #2
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Well (being a deep subject ) for starters, this looks Lumad to me. Does not look like the usual tourist stuff. Ceremonial usage. Which tribe -
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Old 24th April 2007, 01:29 AM   #3
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Have to agree with Jose. I think it is also Lumad, but definitly not tourist. I also don't think it is strictly ceremonial. It looks like a combat kampilon to me. No matter what, it is a really good example of a rare style of kamp................Dave.
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Old 24th April 2007, 03:16 AM   #4
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A UNUSUAL KAMPILLIAN INDEED. I CAN'T REALLY TELL MUCH FROM THE PICTURES, PERHAPS A FEW OF THE SCABBARD WOULD HELP. FROM WHAT LITTLE I CAN SEE IN THE PRESENT PICTURES THE SCABBARD MAY BE LUMAD OR PERHAPS BAGOBO OR TIBOLI A GOOD CLOSEUP OF THE DETAIL WOULD HELP.
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Old 24th April 2007, 03:46 AM   #5
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a close up on the hand guard and tip of blade would help.
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Old 24th April 2007, 02:04 PM   #6
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Old 24th April 2007, 04:53 PM   #7
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Default MORE PICTURES!

MORE PICTURES!!
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Old 26th April 2007, 11:37 PM   #8
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Is it me or does the back look like Visayan work?
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Old 27th April 2007, 12:02 AM   #9
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Measurements ?
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Old 27th April 2007, 01:58 AM   #10
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Default Interesting kampilan ...

Carlos:

Very interesting sword. I agree with the sentiment that this comes from a tribe that is not Moro. Battara has pointed to the interdigitating covering to the scabbard, which we usually associate with Western Visayan swords and dates from the late 19th and early 20th C to the present. The tiger bells are a link to several Lumad tribes of Mindanao, notably the T'boli and neighboring tribes.

Visayan influence in Mindanao is fairly widespread today, but in the early 20th C was more concentrated and prominent in the area of the Davao Gulf and Davao City. My guess for the origin of this sword would be Eastern Mindanao, possibly Tagakaolo, Bagobo or T'boli.

Would love to know the actual provenance.

Ian.
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Old 27th April 2007, 12:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Measurements ?



38.5 inch
THANKS!!!
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Old 27th April 2007, 02:10 PM   #12
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Thanks Carlos ,
It's a lot bigger than I thought !
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Old 27th April 2007, 03:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Carlos:

Very interesting sword. I agree with the sentiment that this comes from a tribe that is not Moro. Battara has pointed to the interdigitating covering to the scabbard, which we usually associate with Western Visayan swords and dates from the late 19th and early 20th C to the present. The tiger bells are a link to several Lumad tribes of Mindanao, notably the T'boli and neighboring tribes.

Visayan influence in Mindanao is fairly widespread today, but in the early 20th C was more concentrated and prominent in the area of the Davao Gulf and Davao City. My guess for the origin of this sword would be Eastern Mindanao, possibly Tagakaolo, Bagobo or T'boli.

Would love to know the actual provenance.

Ian.


Some excellent points Ian.
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Old 27th April 2007, 06:06 PM   #14
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There's no way this could possibly be a mismatch of scabbard and sword .. convenient fit and all .. right?
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Old 27th April 2007, 06:24 PM   #15
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JUDGEING FROM THE SHAPE OF THE TIP OF THE BLADE AND THE USE OF INTERLOCKING PLATES OF (SEA TURTLE SHELL?) AND THE SCABBARD SHAPE. I WOULD SUGGEST IT IS IS VISIAYAN IN ORIGIN AS FAR AS I KNOW THE TRIBES ON MINDANAO NEVER USED THE INTERLOCKING SHELL ON SCABBARDS. THE GAURD APPEARS TO BE METAL BUT IF IT WERE BAGOBO OR TIBOLI IT WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE BEEN BRASS WITH THEIR USUAL PATTERNS AND SHAPE. THE SIMPLE SCABBARD SHAPE IS A LOT LIKE TIBOLI OR BAGOBO SCABBARDS BUT HAS NONE OF THE SPECIAL FEATURES SOMETIMES USED BY THOSE TRIBES. THE TWO LARGE SIZE TIGER BELLS WERE WIDELY TRADED THRUOUT THE AREA SO WOULD NOT POINT TO THE TIBOLI OR BAGOBO. THEIR SPECIAL BELLS ARE THE SMALL BRASS HAWK BELLS WHICH ARE NOT MADE ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE PHILIPPINES AS FAR AS I KNOW. AS TO AGE I WOULD PLACE IT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN WW1 AND WW2. THE ISLAND OF PANAY HAS ALWAYS BORROWED FROM THE MANY FORMS OF THE PHILIPPINES AND SURROUNDING AREAS AND AS A RESULT HAVE COME UP WITH QUITE A WIDE VARIETY OF FORMS AND UNUSUAL ITEMS OVER THE YEARS.
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Old 27th April 2007, 09:46 PM   #16
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carlos, you said:

Quote:
This Kampilan belongs to a friend, he has several weapons from Philippines than one familiar of him bring back to Spain in 1993.


did you mean, it was brought to spain in 1893? nevertheless, nice ilonggo interpretation.


vandoo, i'm interested in your theory in which you stated that the island of panay has always borrowed from the many forms of philippines and the surrounding areas. could you please care to explain?
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Old 27th April 2007, 11:26 PM   #17
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MOST OF THE REALLY STRANGE WEAPONS I HAVE SEEN HAVE CAME FROM THAT AREA. THE MONSTER HEAD BOLO'S COME IN MANY FORMS, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME VERY INTERESTING KAMPILIANS SOME VERY FLAMBOYANT PIRAS AS WELL. THE EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN WITH THE INTERLOCKING TURTLE SHELL HAVE BEEN MONSTER HEAD FORMS WHICH I AM ASSUMEING ARE VISAYAN AND I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM MADE ON MINDANAO. I AM SURE KRIS, BARONG, KAMPILIANS, PANABAS AND OTHER TYPICAL MORO FORMS OF WEAPONS HAVE CONTINUED PRODUCTION AFTER WW2 AND ARE STILL BEING PRODUCED IN MINDANAO TODAY. MINDANO SEEMS TO KEEP TO THE TRADITIONAL MORO FORMS OF CARVEING, INLAY (MOP) AND CONSTRUCTION. PANAY SEEMS TO HAVE EXPERIMENTED MORE AND HAS MODIFIED LOTS OF THEIR TRADITIONAL FORMS AS WELL AS INCORPORATING FEATURES AND TYPES FROM OTHER CULTURES AND AREAS.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF WEAPONS IN THE VISAYAN ISLANDS I HAVE BOUGHT A FEW MORE RECENT ITEMS SAID TO BE MADE ON PANAY. I ASSUME A LOT OF THE ISLANDS HAVE SENT MANY ITEMS TO MANILA TO SELL AND I AM SURE ITEMS ARE ALSO PRODUCED ON LUZON. UNFORTUNATELY THE FEW REFRENCES I HAVE MOSTLY DEAL WITH THE MORO WEAPONS SO A GOOD RESOURCE FOR THE HISTORY OF THE OTHER ISLANDS AND PEOPLES AND THE MANY FORMS OF WEAPONS THEY HAVE PRODUCED WOULD BE A VALUABLE REFRENCE.

I AM OF THE OLD SCHOOL OF THOUGHT AS FAR AS FIGURING OUT THE HISTORY OR ORIGINS OF A ITEM. MANY ITEMS ARE ONE OF A KIND AND MAY HAVE BEEN MADE UP BY A INDIVIDUAL NOT FOLLOWING HIS SOCIETYS TRADITION OR HIS INTREPRETATION OF SOME SWORD HE HAS SEEN OR PERHAPS A COMBINATION OF SEVERAL TYPES USING THE FEATURES HE LIKED MOST. IMAGINATION CAN PLAY A PART EVEN IN TRIBAL WEAPONS UNLESS THE LAWS AND TABOOS PREVENT IT. SO THESE ARE JUST MY OPINIONS BASED ON YEARS OF COLLECTING AND LOOKING AT WEAPONS NOT A PROFESSIONAL OPINION BASED ONLY ON REFRENCES WRITTEN BY THE EXPERTS. WHERE I DON'T HAVE SUCH REFRENCES OR THEY DON'T EXIST I JUST FIGURE IT OUT AS BEST I CAN AND PUT OUT THE POSSIBILITYS AND MY OPINION.

SO 1. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE INTERLOCKED TURTLE SHELL USED ON ANY WEAPONS OTHER THAN VISAYAN

2. I HAVE ONLY SEEN THAT FORM OF KAMPILIAN TIP ON BAGABO, TIBOLI AND VISIAN KAMPILIANS.

3. THE GAURD DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE MORO, TIBOLI OR BAGOBO WORK.

4. I HAVE SEEN THE LARGE TIGER BELLS ON TWO OTHER KAMPILIANS WHICH WERE MORO AND BAGOBO BUT THEY LOOKED LIKE LATER ADD ON'S TO ME. THE KAMPILIAN BEING DISCUSSED HERE LOOKS TO HAVE BEEN MADE FOR SOMETHING TO BE ATTACHED TO THE GAURD BUT IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN BELLS ORIGINALLY. TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT IS ATTACHING THEM AND SEE IF IT LOOKS OLD AND ORIGINAL TO THE SWORD.

IN THE END ALL I CAN GIVE IS CONJECTURE
TO TRY AND FIND A LOST HISTORY OR PROVENENCE IS USUALLY IMPOSIBLE.
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Last edited by VANDOO : 28th April 2007 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 28th April 2007, 03:01 AM   #18
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THE KAMPILIAN ABOVE IS A NON TYPICAL PANAY VERSION USING THE CURVED HORN AND I WOULD ESTIMATE MADE IN THE LAST 30 YEARS GIVE OR TAKE A FEW YEARS. HERE IS ANOTHER STRANGE KAMPILLIAN/ PARANG USING HORN AND A STRANGE PIRA ALSO USING HORN. I HAVE BOUGHT A FEW SIMULAR ITEMS COMING OUT OF PANAY BUT I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF THEY ARE MADE THERE OR SHIPPED IN AND SOLD THERE I CAN'T FIND PICTURES OF THE ONES I OWN PERSONALLY BUT WILL SEE IF I CAN ROUND THEM UP WHEN TIME ALLOWS.
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Old 28th April 2007, 03:26 AM   #19
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i'm not sure about the distant past, barry, but having lived in panay (iloilo), i haven't heard of any industries regarding making 'fantasy' type swords. there's a town in janiuay (iloilo province) that is known for the binangons they produce, but these are normally agricultural type. as far as fantasy types that you see being sold on ebay and the antique district of ermita in manila nowadays, nine out of ten, it comes out of tugaya, lanao del sur, in mindanao, to the point that it's a known trade of the town. the last time i was in panay, the only extensive sword collection i saw was in the museum.

going back to carlos' example, i'm trying to figure out if the sword was brought back in 1993 or 1893... if it's the former then he got an ermita special ...
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Old 28th April 2007, 06:07 AM   #20
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YES, YES ,IS FROM 1893, , !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
carlos, you said:



did you mean, it was brought to spain in 1893? nevertheless, nice ilonggo interpretation.


vandoo, i'm interested in your theory in which you stated that the island of panay has always borrowed from the many forms of philippines and the surrounding areas. could you please care to explain?
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Old 28th April 2007, 04:22 PM   #21
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OH WELL SO MUCH FOR CONJECTURE HAVEING NEVER BEEN TO PANAY I WAS ONLY GOING FROM THE PEICES I HAD SEEN OR BOUGHT OVER THE YEARS ATTRIBUTED TO THERE. MOST WERE BROUGHT BACK BY THE MILITARY AS SOUVINEERS AROUND WW2 SO I WAS ASSUMEING THERE WAS A LARGE MILITARY PRESENCE THERE WHICH CREATED A DEMAND WHICH I HAD THOUGHT HAD BEEN FILLED LOCALLY. IF THERE IS NO HISTORY OF MAKEING FANCY MONSTER HEAD SWORDS AND OTHER VARIOUS FORMS IN PANAY THEN THEY OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COME FROM THERE. I HAD ELIMINATED MINDANAO AS I DID NOT SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT AROUND ZAMBOANGA WHEN I WAS THERE JUST THE TRADITIONAL MORO FORMS.
I GUESS IT IS BEST AFTER ALL TO ONLY GO BY WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE REFRENCE BOOKS AND NOT TO TRY AND FIGURE THINGS OUT ON WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS AS IT CAN BE VERY MISLEADING AND THEN YOU CAN SPREAD THE MISINFORMATION. SO I WILL TRY AND CURB MY CONJECTURE IN FUTURE.
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Old 4th September 2015, 06:21 AM   #22
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Default Moro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Is it me or does the back look like Visayan work?


I'd figure that the kampilan was mostly made by the moros while the ones seen in the Visayas and luzon regions were imported from Mindanao, no?
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Old 4th September 2015, 11:45 PM   #23
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Actually yes and no. Although Luzon stopped using kampilans early on, Visayans either imported the kampilan blades or made their own. Certainly the hilts and scabbards the Visayans made themselves.

This is also true of the Lumad peoples.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 07:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
THE KAMPILIAN ABOVE IS A NON TYPICAL PANAY VERSION USING THE CURVED HORN AND I WOULD ESTIMATE MADE IN THE LAST 30 YEARS GIVE OR TAKE A FEW YEARS. HERE IS ANOTHER STRANGE KAMPILLIAN/ PARANG USING HORN AND A STRANGE PIRA ALSO USING HORN. I HAVE BOUGHT A FEW SIMULAR ITEMS COMING OUT OF PANAY BUT I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF THEY ARE MADE THERE OR SHIPPED IN AND SOLD THERE I CAN'T FIND PICTURES OF THE ONES I OWN PERSONALLY BUT WILL SEE IF I CAN ROUND THEM UP WHEN TIME ALLOWS.



The picture you posted in the bottom, what region did that kampilan come from? Mindinao?
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Old 24th December 2016, 01:58 AM   #25
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IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY THE SELLER SAID PANAY I HAVE QUITE A WIDE RANGE OF PHILIPPINE SWORDS AND A SHIELD, SPEAR AND AX SET THAT WERE SAID TO HAVE COME FROM PANAY. I DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHY SELLERS SAY PANAY AS EVIDENTLY THEY HAVE NO REPUTATION FOR MAKING SWORDS THERE OR DEALING IN THEM IN THE PAST OR NOW. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY LIKE THE TWO KAMPILIAN SWORDS AGAIN SO PERHAPS VERY FEW WERE MADE. I HAVE SEEN QUITE A FEW OF THE PIRA AND EVEN HAVE ONE OF THEM SAID TO HAVE COME FROM PANAY. THE ONES I HAVE RANGE FROM WW2 TO PRESENT THE WW2 WERE MOSTLY BRING BACKS SOME EVEN HAVING PANAY WRITTEN OR SCRATCHED ON THEM. PERHAPS ANOTHER MEMBER MAY HAVE SEEN THESE UNUSUAL SWORDS AND CAN GIVE US AN IDEA AS TO WHERE, WHEN AND HOW RARE THEY MIGHT BE. AFTER ALL A ONE OF A KIND TOURIST ITEM IS RARE AND NOT A BAD ITEM TO HAVE IF ITS WELL MADE.
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Old 16th January 2017, 07:44 AM   #26
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Default Ancient visayan kampilan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Carlos:

Very interesting sword. I agree with the sentiment that this comes from a tribe that is not Moro. Battara has pointed to the interdigitating covering to the scabbard, which we usually associate with Western Visayan swords and dates from the late 19th and early 20th C to the present. The tiger bells are a link to several Lumad tribes of Mindanao, notably the T'boli and neighboring tribes.

Visayan influence in Mindanao is fairly widespread today, but in the early 20th C was more concentrated and prominent in the area of the Davao Gulf and Davao City. My guess for the origin of this sword would be Eastern Mindanao, possibly Tagakaolo, Bagobo or T'boli.

Would love to know the actual provenance.

Ian.



This may be possible the very first visayan made kampilan that has surfaced. Assuming of course this was pre ww2/ww1.
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Old 16th January 2017, 07:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaharlikaTimawa
Assuming of course this was pre ww2/ww1.


So far I know is the technique with this thin horn band 19th century, it may be still used in early 20th century but not later anymore.
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Old 16th January 2017, 10:48 PM   #28
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I would concur that this is pre-WWI.
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Old 17th January 2017, 03:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
So far I know is the technique with this thin horn band 19th century, it may be still used in early 20th century but not later anymore.

Detlef:

One of our former members, zelbone, had made a particular study of Visayan swords. It was his opinion that the interdigitating horn segments on scabbards are found no earlier than about 1900. Before that time, western Visayan scabbards were entirely wood. The use of leather on scabbards also seemed to date from the early 1900s.

Ian
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Old 17th January 2017, 04:54 AM   #30
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Hello Ian,

what I say before, this technique was used around 1900, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=visayan
All Visayan swords I've seen with this scabbards have had a very good age, late 19th to early 20th century, but never more recent ones.

Regards,
Detlef

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