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Old 3rd March 2007, 04:07 PM   #1
fenlander
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Default hatf

What was the Hatf ?
What kind of sword was it ? What was it used for and what is its significance ? What did it look like ?
Anyone any ideas or good sources of information ?
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Old 3rd March 2007, 04:19 PM   #2
RhysMichael
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Here is a start =, I cannot vouce for teh accuracy of the site but it may start you on the road until someone here who knows more comes along

http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwh...words/hatf.html
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Old 3rd March 2007, 06:07 PM   #3
Jens Nordlunde
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Interesting, if the sword really is what the author writes, one would think there would be more than one homepage!
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Old 3rd March 2007, 08:24 PM   #4
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I don't know why there is so little on the web on it but the Topaki museum is reported to have several swords attributed to Muhammad and his folowers s well as a large collection of early Qur'anic manuscripts

Quote:
The sacred relics of Islam were brought to the palace after the conquest of Egypt in the 16th century and have been preserved here since that time. This hall was used as the throne room before it was allocated to the sacred relics. The walls of the domed rooms are covered with tiles. Important pieces of the collection are the swords and bow of Mohammed and his mantle (cloak), which is kept in a priceless box. The seal of the Prophet, hairs from his beard, his footprint and a letter are other exhibits in the showcases in these rooms. Also on display are one of the first manuscripts of The Koran, the keys of the Ka'aba in Mecca, and the swords of prominent religious personalities.


http://www.istanbulmagazine.com/topkapi_museum.php

Here is another list of the articles housed there relating to this

Quote:
The Sacred Trust - Pavilion Of The Sacred Relics - Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul by Hilmi Aydin

Beautiful golden colour box for book, nice gift pack.
Book contains pictures of many Muslim and Islamic sacred trusts which are kept saved in Istanbul. These pictures include

The Holy Mantle
The Honored Standard
First Manuscripts of Quranic Verses
The Letters Of Prophet Muhammad
The Sacred Seal
The sacred Strands of Hair
The Prophet's Footprint
The Sacred Sandals
The Bow Of the Prophet
The Holy Tooth
The staff Of Prophet Muhammad
The staff Of Moses
The Cooking Vessel Of The Prophet Abraham
The Turban of the Prophet Joseph
The Prophet John's (John the Baptist) Forearm and a Fragment Of His Skull
The Keys and Locks of the Kaba
The water Bag used during the restoration of the Tomb of the Prophet
Covers Of Kaba and the tomb of the prophet
Soil form the Grave of Prophet Muhammad
The Prayer Rug and Bridal Veil of Fatimah al-Zahra
The scarf of Aisha bint Abu Bakr
Sword Of The Prophet
Sword Of Abu bakr al-Siddiq
Sword Of Umar ibn al-Khattab
Sword Of Uthman ibn Affan
Sword Of Ali ibn Abu Talib
A Piece of a Mantle Attributed to Husayn ibn Ali
A Piece of Earth from Karbala
and many more things attributed to different prophets, prophet Muhammad's companions and sacred places


Fenlander you may want to get a copy of The Sacred Trusts : Pavilion of the Sacred Relics (Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul)
Author: Hilmi Aydin (author); Ahmed Dogru, Talha Ugurluel (editors); Dr. Brian Johnson, Hakan Yesilova (English editors); Korkut Altay, Recep Goktas (assistant editors); Dr. Mehmet Ipsirli (content editor); Etem Caliskan (calligraphy); Bahadir Taskin (photos)
Publisher: The Light (2005)

Or perhaps Arms and Armor from Iran Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

http://onlineislamicstore.com/b8512.html

Sounds like a place I would love to visit
here are some other links of some of the swords there and the museum

http://www.topkapisarayi.gov.tr/

http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/topkapi.html

http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/TopkapiArms.html

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0305-6139(1990)17%3A2%3C244%3AAAW%5BSA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-X

They are said to have the sword of the prophet David.
http://www.invitation2truth.com/ima...red-trust/3.jpg

A saber made for OttoSultan Suleiman, the Magnificent
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/images/xxsulei.jpg

The sword of 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs
http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.co...20and%20Ali.jpg

The Blessed Prophet Muhammad's (Pbuh)
http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.co..._PBUH_Sword.jpg

http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.co...ordandarrow.jpg

The Swords of the Sahabi's (RA) and the Khalifa's (RA)
http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.co...andkhalefas.jpg

Hazrat Ali's (RA) sword
http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.co...zrat_Ali_RA.jpg

Last edited by RhysMichael : 3rd March 2007 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 3rd March 2007, 08:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Interesting, if the sword really is what the author writes, one would think there would be more than one homepage!

There are those who call into question the authenticity of these relics

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles...y_Antiquity.htm
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Old 3rd March 2007, 09:42 PM   #6
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Thanks that is great, a lot to get looking into there. Not as much on the net as I thought there would be though!
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Old 5th March 2007, 02:38 AM   #7
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Dr. Unsal Yucel published a book titled " Islamic Swords and Swordmakers" with all the pics of Sacred Swords from the Topkapi.
In many cases, he inserts a cautious statement, like "... it is difficult to say whether this sword is from the 6th century CE..." or something like that.
All of them are typical Mameluke swords and cannot be older than 14th century or thereabouts. Old enough, but no cigar...
Are there any archeologically-authenticated pre-Islamic swords NOT belonging to the same group?
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Old 5th March 2007, 12:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Dr. Unsal Yucel published a book titled " Islamic Swords and Swordmakers" with all the pics of Sacred Swords from the Topkapi.
In many cases, he inserts a cautious statement, like "... it is difficult to say whether this sword is from the 6th century CE..." or something like that.
All of them are typical Mameluke swords and cannot be older than 14th century or thereabouts. Old enough, but no cigar...
Are there any archeologically-authenticated pre-Islamic swords NOT belonging to the same group?


Hello Ariel,

Im pretty sure Dr.Yucel confirms that some of those swords belong to that era, the only problem is, he cannot confirm if they really belonged to their alleged owners.

Besides this collection in Topkapi, I do not think that we have in world today, any other swords from that period. Oh, BTW, those swords are actually wootz, and most probably Indian made.
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Old 5th March 2007, 05:50 PM   #9
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If there are no independent ways to ascertain their age, we are in a circular logic vortex:
" Pre-Isalmic Arabian swords were straight as evidenced by the collection of the Sacred Swords.
The Sacred Swords are Pre-Islamic in origin because they are straight"
The only dating on these swords is the tradition that they belonged to a defined personality. If we cannot be sure that they belonged to that personality, how do we know their dating?
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Old 6th March 2007, 01:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
If there are no independent ways to ascertain their age, we are in a circular logic vortex:
" Pre-Isalmic Arabian swords were straight as evidenced by the collection of the Sacred Swords.
The Sacred Swords are Pre-Islamic in origin because they are straight"
The only dating on these swords is the tradition that they belonged to a defined personality. If we cannot be sure that they belonged to that personality, how do we know their dating?


Valid point Ariel. For one, pre-islamic arabic poetry praises watered steel indian blades, and the fact that these swords are of wootz, and are straight, does give some credibility to the claim that they are early arab. What we need is the primary documents which listed these blades falling into the hands of Sultan Selim I after his conquest of Egypt (as the story goes), taking them from the last Abbasid Caliph, whom allegedly possesed these items.
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