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Old 24th January 2007, 03:30 PM   #1
BerberDagger
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Default Koummiya Moroccan

hi,
i have just buy this moroccan koummiya....for me it is very good and for you?

the symbol on the blade is similar to symbl of Raisuli Tribal....have you got any information for me!!!!

thanks

sorry I dont speack good english
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Old 24th January 2007, 05:37 PM   #2
Lew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerberDagger
hi,
i have just buy this moroccan koummiya....for me it is very good and for you?

the symbol on the blade is similar to symbl of Raisuli Tribal....have you got any information for me!!!!

thanks

sorry I dont speack good english


Welcome BerberDagger

You will need to post a picture of the dagger for us to look at.

Lew
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Old 24th January 2007, 05:37 PM   #3
BerberDagger
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sorry here is photo!!!!
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Old 24th January 2007, 05:41 PM   #4
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Hello BerberDagger,

There was a discussion at some point about a koummiya like yours, and someone mentioned that the blade with fullers along the edges at the forte may be Spanish. I like the way this one looks...I'm actually looking to get one, but the ones I've seen on ebay and those I've held were pretty bad.
The stamp on yours is quite interesting, maybe someone can tell us about it.

Emanuel

Last edited by Manolo : 24th January 2007 at 05:47 PM. Reason: name mistake
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Old 24th January 2007, 05:42 PM   #5
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thanks for welcome to forum...i m very happy to speack with member's forum.... I m a collector of german dagger of WWII and of Berber weapons.....but my specialy is napoleonic weapons (dagger,sword and pistols)

sorry for words but i speack little english....i speack more good french , german or italian
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Old 24th January 2007, 08:07 PM   #6
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Welcome to the forum!

Make sure to search both this as well as the old forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6) for interesting threads! There are a few folks here with extensive knowledge on Koummyas - I'd like to hear more often of these nice bades though!

I assume you've already seen this article http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html by our host Lee.

This seems to be a nice piece! Could you please measure the thickness of your blade with calipers? This helps to differentiate serious blades from more decorative/ceremonial ones. Recent tourist stuff is often more easily spotted by crappy blades (which actually don't deserve to be called blades); older tourist stuff can be anything in between AFAIK...

Do you have another example of this stamped mark? More often these seem to originate from stamped European blades which seem to have been prized by Moroccan makers.

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Kai
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Old 24th January 2007, 08:19 PM   #7
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Default hello

hello
thanks for reply ,
the thickness mesures 4 mm , if i have understand you questions!!!!

yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....
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Old 24th January 2007, 09:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
the thickness mesures 4 mm

That settles it - a genuine weapon IMHO.

Quote:
yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

Could you post a scan? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 24th January 2007, 10:52 PM   #9
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symbols at better look is not = but similar.... FOR YOU....
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Old 26th January 2007, 03:31 AM   #10
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Hi BerberDagger,
That is definitely an extremely attractive koummya, and quite different in the hilt than most I have seen. I just thought I would add a few notes on them that I have found interesting in earlier research and discussions
The koummya is a fascinating weapon, especially in its reflection of influences of other cultures that have come into regions of the Maghreb. It has been suggested that the arched pommel may be traced back to traders from Venice and the distinctive swords known as cinqueda, however this suggestion may be best considered apocryphal, but one can see the clear similarity to many of those pommels.

The scabbard design appears to derive of course from the Arabian janbiyya, with the recurved tip and the bulb at the end (as seen on most Omani examples).

Concerning this example, I am unclear whether this blade would be Spanish, however it would seem that cross marking is intended to allude to that influence. This type cross, in what appears stylized interpretation clearly resembles the 'crusaders cross' of medieval times, which became the Santiago cross in Spain. Although not distinctly known as a makers mark, it is known to have appeared on swords and armor in Switzerland (as early as 12th c.) and in Spain as well as in Germany. It seems that typically it has appeared on early Spanish swords
often in groupings of four (early Hispano-Moresque 'jineta').

I am not sure that there are distinct 'tribal' symbols among the many Berber tribes, as it seems most geometric and cosmological motif and decoration is applied somewhat generally in accordance to local folk religion and associated superstitious beliefs.

If anyone has studied the anthropology of the Berbers I would very much like to know if such tribal symbolism does exist.

I believe that the cross symbol has been added to this blade, as is so often the case in North African edged weapons, to imbue the weapon with the virtues of the much desired European blades.

The very attractive vertically fluted horn grips remind me of early French sabres of Napoleonic period that often had these ebony grips. I cannot I can recall seeing them on koumyya. Anyone out there have other examples ?

Best regards,
Jim
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Old 27th January 2007, 10:28 AM   #11
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Hi all,

This type of koummya is generally called "queue de paon", peacock's tail.
The fluted horn grips are common on these types of koummyas. I am in the middle of moving so therefore unfortunately I cannot make pictures and post them, I try to keep it in mind.

Jim, thanks again for your extensive post; it is indeed very hard to find material about koummya's and berber tribes.

Ernst
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Old 27th January 2007, 06:09 PM   #12
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Default THANKS

HELLO !thanks for yours reply.....
I have speack with a my moroccan friend, it is arab's teacher in University....
he tell me that this koummiya is made on 1870-1920 and it is very good moroccan koummiya with arabish hispanish culture ....the symbl on a blade for his ...is a berber symbol diffused in morocco from 1870....Raisuli is a head of berber people and he aggree with spanish people...this koummiya is of time of Raisuli (1870-1925) for my moroccan friend...
he has tell me other important information abaut this dagger but i dont able to translate in english....BUT for you is possible ???
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Old 28th January 2007, 05:42 AM   #13
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Thank you ErnestoJuan!! and for the 'Peacocks Tail' term which I have added to my notes. Also appreciate the note on the fluted grips, which as I mention I had not seen on the few examples I have handled. You are right, like so many ethnographic weapons, information is pretty sparse on the koummya, and must be gleaned from many sources. I very much hope you might post the pictures and info on those koummya variants once you get settled

BerberDagger, I am very interested in knowing more on that Berber symbol! and would like to find out more on symbols used by Berber tribes if you can find out more, please post OK? We have always seen pretty general geometric designs used in material culture throughout the Sahara, but if you have access to data on that it would be excellent if we could identify such tribal markings.

Thanks very much guys!
All the best,
Jim
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Old 28th January 2007, 06:07 PM   #14
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hi , thank you
Yes i post information of berber symbol when I have translate it...Azedine , my moroccan friend has find this information on internet (in arabian language) and on his personal books...

i post this pommel of koummiya...it is very similar to other koummiya for me!!!!!????
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Old 28th January 2007, 06:09 PM   #15
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this is photo!!!
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Old 28th January 2007, 06:38 PM   #16
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Thanks BerberDagger, I look forward to more on that information!
Thats great, you have another one too! Very nice
All the best,
Jim
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Old 28th January 2007, 06:57 PM   #17
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Hi BerberDagger!
Also have a look at this useful site: http://blade.japet.com/koummya.htm

Emanuel
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Old 29th January 2007, 01:49 AM   #18
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thanks Jim McDougall and Manolo for information.... I post berber information this week ....

but abaut blade of moroccan dagger,for Azedine is not important blade of koummiya becouse berber use not good iron like european blade and much koummiya are confused with tourist item but it is good....

for Azidine this little koummiya is good , not tourist item for exemple...blade is not made with good iron but he tell me that is not important for normal berber people....not scheich or head or rich berber....

sorry for my little english!!!
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Old 29th January 2007, 03:24 AM   #19
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Like Fenris said, BerberDagger,
If you think you could use this knife in a fight, to cut or stab, then it may be good, even if it is made of poor materials. Usually a very thin blade is not useful, it may break more easily than a thick one.
Emanuel
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Old 28th February 2007, 10:07 PM   #20
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Default berber symbols

Hi this is symbol of berber culture...I have other document more good but it s is in arabian language...
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File Type: doc simbologia berbera.doc (108.5 KB, 837 views)
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Old 1st March 2007, 01:35 AM   #21
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Hello BerberDagger,
Thanks for this, it'll be quite helpful and I think I recognize some symbols that I've seen on some flyssa.
All the best,
Emanuel
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