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Old 25th November 2006, 05:44 PM   #1
Dajak
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Default Dayak parang ilang Handle

An very rare handle
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Old 25th November 2006, 06:28 PM   #2
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Yes and the exact type I want to get when I grow up (and have money again ).

Is this rare due to the silver on the hilt?

Did you get this from eBay (saw another identical to this)?
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Old 25th November 2006, 06:56 PM   #3
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Hi Battara yes I did get this one from ebay it is 19 centh and also rare with silver on the handle on the top off the handle same design as they use on heads

It was very cheap it surprise me that it was not recognised as an important piece.

Ben
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Old 25th November 2006, 11:37 PM   #4
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Congratulations Ben!

Are those stylized leeches on the first hilt picture? I have heard that they were put there to give the Mandau a taste for blood.
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Old 26th November 2006, 08:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
... I did get this one from ebay...It was very cheap it surprise me that it was not recognised as an important piece.

Ben


Nicer than I assumed - congratulations.
That's the problem with buying from pictures; you usually get some kind of surprise. In this case a positive surprise.
I was no 2 and my top bid, based on the insecurity because of the pictures, wasn't what most people would consider a bargain???
But compared to the prices of some top dealers in Amsterdam it of course was relatively quite cheap.

Could you please also share some pictures of the blade and sheath?


Michael
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Old 26th November 2006, 04:23 PM   #6
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Hi thanks Here are some more pics the strange thing about the blade is that
the blade is concave and the otherside is convex this is normal with an parang ilang but the crowit at the handle and the point we see not at an parang ilang .
I did not see from the pic that this mandau had no flat blade , and that the carry band was complete I only saw that it was the old style carry band.
But scabbard style looks like 1850 or earlyer.

Here are some pics
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Old 26th November 2006, 07:18 PM   #7
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Nice catch Ben!

I find the carved rib over the Tumpal (Tree of life) motif on the handle very unusual. Have you seen it before?

On the crowit and point I am not sure what you mean?
Maybe you could post some close ups of those parts of the blade and explain?
It's hard to see on the, quite dark, overall picture of the blade.

Don't you think the silver work resemble motifs found on Melanau hilts?

Bill, I think that the leech and taste of blood story is something made up outside Borneo.
But of course I might be wrong?
Like the story about the brass dots representing amount of taken heads etc.

Michael
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Old 26th November 2006, 08:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV

Bill, I think that the leech and taste of blood story is something made up outside Borneo.
But of course I might be wrong?
Like the story about the brass dots representing amount of taken heads etc.

Michael



Hi Michael,

Always hard to tell what is an "urban rumor," and what is authentic. I got the idea about the leeches from "Iban Art," by Heppel.

The idea about the brass dots representing number of heads always seemed off to me because they were most likely in place when the blade was first made.

I guess it could be possible that a Dayak could have a blade made counting previous heads taken, though it would have been a lot of heads for so many dots.

Bill
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Old 27th November 2006, 06:12 AM   #9
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Hi Bill,

Iban Art, published 2005, is a very nice book.
The leeches making the sword familiar drawing blood is in the book a saying that they attribute to Saribas, an area where one of the Iban groups live.
I think that's a cool but more recent explanation from the time after headhunting was practised.
The Parang Ilang is a sword that the Iban got from the Kayan in the 19th C (according to Shelford and other sources).
The original meaning for the motif IMO must be found among the Kayan.

Michael
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Old 27th November 2006, 07:59 AM   #10
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Hi thanks for your reply

The dots in the mandau is not an rumor there are some mandau s and pakayuns who have very litle amount off dots in the weapons that it could be true that this was in use for a little time for each head an dot.
( we see some mandau s with 100 dots or more but these are more to make the sword more fancy )

Take a look at this mandau is has very nice in lay but look at the other side the way they put in the dots

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=mandau

The handle s the top is an milano handle second one land dayak third murut
and last kayan so I think the handle off this mandau is not melanau .

take a look at the crowits I never see 2 on an kayan mandau we find this combination the most at the Iban people with their mandau 's .

so this one might be one off the first type that the Iban did get from the kayan ( but not sure about this that what I like to find out any information about this is welcome )

Hi Michael what you say about the Heppel book I have to agree with you

The same for
the Zonneveld s book see the information about the parang nabur that is in it.
And the jimpul s that one in there is not an jimpul.

Ben
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Old 27th November 2006, 08:58 AM   #11
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Hi Ben,

Maybe on the "spooky" Mandau the dots could be heads?
Or it's just an unusual Mandau all over?

On the Melanau influence it was just the motifs on the silver grip I was referring to, not the antler hilt of course.

Both the Murut and the Land Dayak could have had contact with the Melanau for influence on their silver work on your nice swords?
Let's agree at least that it's probably made along the coast of Sarawak?

Thanks for the close ups.
Now I see what you mean and agree that it looks both unusual and interesting.
I also think that your Mandau is a "transition sword".
Maybe early Iban made Mandau, as you suggest, before they became more usual in the end of 19th C.

Michael
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Old 27th November 2006, 09:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Hi Bill,

Iban Art, published 2005, is a very nice book.
The leeches making the sword familiar drawing blood is in the book a saying that they attribute to Saribas, an area where one of the Iban groups live.
I think that's a cool but more recent explanation from the time after headhunting was practised.
The Parang Ilang is a sword that the Iban got from the Kayan in the 19th C (according to Shelford and other sources).
The original meaning for the motif IMO must be found among the Kayan.

Michael


Hi Michael,

Do you have an "original meaning for the motif found among the Kayan?" Or could it be the same?

It seems that a great number of these hilts have similar carvings, so it seems to be an important symbol.

Some symbols are rooted in antiquity and faithfully reproduced while others have lost their original meaning and are just copied because they have been there a long time.

I very much appreciate your knowledge and am going to post a few of my Dayak pieces in the hopes of learning more.

Curious Bill
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Old 27th November 2006, 09:49 AM   #13
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Hi Michael yes in the Sarawak part maybe the North that part that is close to the Muruts you see the murut one have it too and the scabbard also your nice rare pakayun has also nice silver on the scabbard

The spooky mandau they could be heads

Yes I think this one and the pics you show me from that nice mandau
could be transition swords

would be nice that maybe you post them here


Ben
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Old 27th November 2006, 10:00 AM   #14
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OK,

Here is my Mandau, that we discussed off-forum, with an abundance of crowit.
I don't have it around at the moment so I will have a closer look at the blade later today.

Michael
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Old 27th November 2006, 10:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Marsh
Hi Michael,

Do you have an "original meaning for the motif found among the Kayan?" Or could it be the same?

It seems that a great number of these hilts have similar carvings, so it seems to be an important symbol.

Some symbols are rooted in antiquity and faithfully reproduced while others have lost their original meaning and are just copied because they have been there a long time.

I very much appreciate your knowledge and am going to post a few of my Dayak pieces in the hopes of learning more.

Curious Bill


Hi Bill,

Missed your post first because it came before Ben's.
I will try to find time tonight, or tomorrow night, to go through some of the old works and different ideas on what the "leech" motif represents.
I prefer to base it on quotes so everybody has the same sources to form their own opinion on this.
Look forward to see your Dayak pieces.
Maybe in a separate thread, so we can limit this thread to discuss Iban-Kayan transition Mandau?

Michael
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Old 27th November 2006, 10:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Hi Bill,

Missed your post first because it came before Ben's.
I will try to find time tonight, or tomorrow night, to go through some of the old works and different ideas on what the "leech" motif represents.
I prefer to base it on quotes so everybody has the same sources to form their own opinion on this.
Look forward to see your Dayak pieces.
Maybe in a separate thread, so we can limit this thread to discuss Iban-Kayan transition Mandau?

Michael


Of course
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Old 27th November 2006, 12:55 PM   #17
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Hi Michael here some blade s yours has the style off the oldman jimpul
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Old 27th November 2006, 12:56 PM   #18
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and some more
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Old 27th November 2006, 01:08 PM   #19
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Thanks Ben,

Yes it resembles the style of the old Jimpul more than the Ilang.
Not home yet for a couple of hours but will post blade comments as soon as I have it in front of me again.

Michael
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Old 27th November 2006, 03:59 PM   #20
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Back home, the blade is not flat but concave/convex like a Parang Ilang.

Michael
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Old 27th November 2006, 05:37 PM   #21
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Hi Michael you see that it is rare blade with the 2 crowits on an convex concave blade I try too look up the handle in Hein but nothing like it
I have to ask Arjan about it he make s a study about Mandau Handle s

Let me know if you see handle or blade like it


Ben
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Old 28th November 2006, 06:16 AM   #22
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Here is another odd Iban parang.
It has a "half-crowit" and the point is not as pronounced as for a Langgai Tinggang or a Niabor.
The long blade is flat with fullers and incised with phyllomorphic design on both sides. Look carefully at the point and you can see the design.

Michael
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Old 28th November 2006, 06:54 AM   #23
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Some other handles
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Old 28th November 2006, 09:08 AM   #24
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Hi Michael yes There is no classification for this type so I called it sea dayak sword or mandau sometimes you see campilans on north borneo with the same point (not the design but is very nice we find these on Jimpulls)
this could be also be an transition sword between the Iban and other dayaks
The short handle is typicall Iban .

Nice Kenya/ Kayan handle s Marcokeris

here an old style handle as we can see in Qeur Durch Borneo very different from what we see on the later mandau s
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Old 28th November 2006, 02:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
Hi Michael yes There is no classification for this type so I called it sea dayak sword or mandau sometimes you see campilans on north borneo with the same point (not the design but is very nice we find these on Jimpulls)
this could be also be an transition sword between the Iban and other dayaks
The short handle is typicall Iban .


Hi Ben,

Sea Dayak sword seems to be a fitting name until it has been classified.
I haven't seen any other Dayak parang resembling this one so far.

Nice hilts Marcokeris and Ben!

Michael
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Old 30th November 2006, 07:57 AM   #26
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Hi Arjan can you take a look in leiden about this handle ??

Ben
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Old 30th November 2006, 08:43 AM   #27
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Ben,

I don't think Leiden is the proper place to find resembling hilts to ours.
This because of the non Iban bias in their collection.
I had a look myself in their collection archive and didn't find any close to yours.
On my hilt it looks clearly influenced by two of the old Kenyah hilts collected by Nieuwenhuis?
By influenced I mean that that's the closest resemblence of the hilts in their collection. Not that they are identical in style.
Maybe the Kenyah resemblence is another reason to classify this as a transition sword before the Iban adopted the Ilang as their own parang?
Here is a picture of the hilt from another angle for comparison.

Michael

PS Don't you think your hilt a bit resembles the old ones in Tromp's article, collected in Koetei?
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Last edited by VVV : 30th November 2006 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Added PS and example
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Old 30th November 2006, 05:30 PM   #28
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Hi Michael

I don t think so because if you look at that type off hilt you see a face and the back off the handle is almost straight .
I see also no type off hilt in Hein so would be difficult to trace it

your hilt is also a nice one
Ben
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Old 1st December 2006, 08:23 AM   #29
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Hi Ben,

I don't see a face on all the hilts in Tromp?
And not on the example I have enclosed.
But I don't think they have the Tumpal motif either.
So it was just an idea on a slight resemblance and a possible connection?

Michael
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Old 1st December 2006, 03:39 PM   #30
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Hi Michael I think this type off handle might be older then the tromp handle
because the lip at the back side we see disappear after 1900.


Ben
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