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Old 9th November 2006, 12:33 AM   #1
Matt Branch
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Default Markings or Decorations on Mexican Swords

I have been looking for books or web sites that show Markings on sword blades. I have found a little on European blades but nothing on Mexican Swords.
I am trying to see if my sword could be linked to the Disturnell treaty map that showed the border between Mexico and the USA after the Mexican war in the early 1800's
Attached is a pic of my sword with the eagle on the map next to it.
Any help would be great!
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Old 9th November 2006, 11:23 PM   #2
Jim McDougall
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Hi Matt,
It has been noted many times over the years that Mexican and Spanish Colonial weapons are very little represented in most books on edged weapons. Even in Mexico, the only book I was able to find published there is from a museum and very general in miscellaneous weapons, not focused on Mexican arms.
I think it may be a good idea to check nusimatic sources as the coins often reflect period iconography, and this often applies to markings and motif on many weapons of many countries.
I like the way you are tenaciously researching this sword! and glad you are keeping the topic active.
All the best,
Jim
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Old 12th November 2006, 10:13 PM   #3
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Default Update

What I have learned so far (thanks to Jim Mcdougall for the help)
After looking through and reading several books, this is what I have come up with. If anything dosent ring true let me know.
The size, shape and blade type of my sword are very close to the dish/cup hilted broadswords in Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America, my blade is 40" overall. 35" from guard to tip and 1 1/4" wide and is a flat side hexagonal blade.
The ricasso and shoulder of my blade are very close to those on the sword in plate 128 of that book.
So I am pretty sure that is what it is, the book also said that these swords were made in Tolodo Spain and Oaxaca Mexico, there are no marks on my blade to indicate if it was made in spain.
I have found a Bladesmith in Oxaca in 1750 named Aragon who used the same method as those in Spain. He does have a decendent name Guillermo Aragon Guzman who is said to be a world class Bladesmith and makes swords and knives at Casa Aragon in Oaxaca. I am trying to figure out how to contact him.
He may also have information on the decoration and rehilting of my sword.
After looking at all kinds of Mexican currency, stamps and government documents I have found only one Eagle that matches the one on my blade, so I am assuming that there is a connection between my sword and the Mapa Estados De Los Unidos De Mejico, which shows the border between The USA and Mexico around 1840 to 1850.
So I am assuming that is when my 1700's blade was decorated and rehilted.
I have found a Civil War skirmish in tennesse on January 25 1863 where my ggg grandfather in command of a construction train, with his troops captured 1 and killed 1 rebel soldier and captured all their equipment and 2 horses, that is where the sword came into my family.
I don't know how it got from Mexico to Tennesse.

Is there a way to attribute the sword to the treaty map other than the
eagles match?

I'm attaching some better photos of the pattern.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Matt
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Last edited by Matt Branch : 12th November 2006 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 12th November 2006, 11:31 PM   #4
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Hi Matt,
You're doing some great research on this!!! I really like the thorough approach you are using !
Can you possibly show the entire sword, I've forgotten what hilt it is mounted in.
Which unit was your grandfather in.
Nice work locating the bladesmith in Oaxaca. I'll work on finding way to contact him if possible.

Best regards,
Jim
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Old 13th November 2006, 03:14 AM   #5
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Hello again Matt,
I have been working more on this and going through files and more books.
In reviewing the book "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" I looked at the military blades much like yours. While these are typically noted as 'Spanish military blades' I notice that they most often have triple fullers in the upper third of the blade, as well as flattened hexagonal cross section. In checking "Armamento Portatil Espanol 1764-1939" (B. Barcelo Rubi, Madrid, 1976, p.26) I notice that the Spanish military blades of regulation pattern, in this case M1768, which are supposed to be the type used in the New Spain swords, do not have the triple fullers.
This would suggest of course, that your blade was not made in Spain.

In studying these Spanish colonial weapons of the latter 18th thru early 19th century, there has been some suggestion that many of the 'Spanish' blades found on the early espada anchas as well as the sabres carried by militia officers may have been Solingen made. It is interesting that the triple fullers also appear on early trade broadsword blades from Germany and are often found on kaskaras and Omani kattaras.
On the hexagonal cross section 'Spanish' blades, it is most common to find the inscription "No Me Saques sin Razon" on one side and on the other "No me Embaines sin honor'. It seems that virtually all of these blades carry this inscription, though there are variations.

In reviewing coin books and material on the Mexican eagle symbol, I can find absolutely no evidence of an eagle in the posture seen on your blade, with fully outstretched wings. It was very good research on your part to find the Disturnell map showing a comparitive example to the engraving on your blade.
Apparantly there is a great deal of complexity in the content of that map, which was placed with the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo in 1848, at the end of the Mexican-American War of 1846-48. Interestingly, John Disturnell of New York copied the map from the so called Rosa map (Paris, 1837) who in turn had copied it from Henry S. Tanner map (Philadephia,1826).
It would seem with all of this, that the eagle style shown on the map may very much reflect American style.
Earlier it seems you mentioned PDL , which is actually P.D.Luneschloss, a Solingen maker who supplied blades at about the time of the civil war, and before.

With a great deal of speculation, I would suggest that possibly the German maker, exporting blades sometime c.1850's may have decorated the blade for a Mexican officer on special order, most likely in some diplomatic venture. It seems plausible that he might have been aware of or used the eagle on the Paris map as a model for a Mexican eagle?
Since it is well known that the Confederacy had considerable contact with Mexico, it would seem quite plausible that the blade, or entire sword, may have come into thier possession. As I have previously described, Custer captured a sword from a Confederate officer during the Civil War which was mounted with a blade carrying the familiar 'Spanish motto' that I have indicated often found on the triple fuller blades.

If the blade does have the PDL, then this scenario may be the answer, and would pretty much eliminate Oaxaca.

I very much enjoy this kind of research, and really appreciate your reciprocation and response in exchanging ideas!!

Please post some photos of the entire sword, and confirm the PDL marking OK.

All the best
Jim
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Old 13th November 2006, 08:19 PM   #6
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Default Full Sword photos

Thanks Jim!
Here are a couple full views.
On reading more about the Espada Ancha ( my sword has almost the exact dimensions as one in Spanish Colonial Weapons...sword 3 plate 131) I have found that a lot of spanish and mexican blades were Iron, I have assumed that my blade is steel. How do you tell?
The 3rd photo is listed as a dish hilt hanger, it is 1/4 inch longer than mine and is listed as having probably been cut down???
I am trying to get a better photo of the P D L...more on that later.
Thanks Again
Matt
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Old 13th November 2006, 09:10 PM   #7
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Default PDL and ricasso

Here are some photos of the PDL and the recasso on my sword.
Re the PDL, I have not found a Luneschloss blade that had the initals ingraved in the blade in cursive, so I've been thinking that they are spurious or the initals of the sword owner. Perhaps you are right about Germany, Juan J. Perez has said he thinks it is a soligen blade but I have not found one that is close or has the tri fullers like mine does so I was looking at Oaxaca as a possability.
In the photos you can see the ricasso on my blade is the same size and shape as the dish hilt hanger, and the fullers are in about the same place, I can't tell how long the fullers are on the hanger so I don't know if that would match.
As I said earlier, I don't know how to tell what the blade is made out of so any info on that would be great.
I saw a short article on Espada Anchas where the autor said that a lot of them were rehilted with 3 bar iron hilts from England around the Mexican -American war, and mine does look lihe cast iron.
My ggg grandfather was in company I 10th Michigan Infantry. He enlisted as a sergent and was made company wagon master Nov. 20 1861 and was promoted to Lieutenant after the afore mentioned skirmish.
Thanks for all you're work Jim and all the info!
Is there a way to tell if my blade has been cut down?
Is there a way to confirm the PDL?
Best Regards
Matt
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Old 14th November 2006, 03:02 AM   #8
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Hi Matt,
I'm glad you have spoken to Juan Perez as he is one of the most knowledgable people I know on Spanish swords, so I am glad that he agrees this blade is, like many of the other triple fuller examples, from Solingen.
As Chamberlain notes in his book, many of these blades were hilted in Mexico with three bar iron hilts in the 1820's and 30's. English hilts seem quite likely, although the three bar hilt became popular with a number of countries during those times. Yours does seem English.

Interesting on the PDL, which certainly seems to represent Luneschloss, who furnished edged weapons for Britain, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S.- "where Luneschloss supplied both sides during the US Civil War of 1861-65"
("Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918", John Walter, 1975, p111-114). This reference notes further, "...quantities of etched and engraved weapons were also marketed alongside cutlery and tableware".

While this reference clearly is assigned in scope to the period after the Civil War, the existing history of the makers prior to that time is discussed briefly.
It should be noted that Luneschloss worked closely with London dealers, much as many German makers had for many years, and that England was of course quite active in supplying Confederate forces. Although the obviously Mexican motif seems misplaced on a sword found in Confederate hands, it does seem as I mentioned, not that surprising given the complexities of supply networking during those wartime years. While most of the Luneschloss blades I have seen were stamped, especially the U.S. examples. On an interesting side note, when the U.S.pattern 1840 cavalry sabres were introduced, the earliest examples were actually German made! until Ames took the contract.

I still am inclined to think that the blade may have been decorated in Germany, it would appear by Luneschloss, and the cursive script may have been because it might have been intended in some diplomatic sense? It is really difficult to say, yet we know where it ended up

Do your records show what location in Tennessee the action took place?
I lived in Nashville for nearly ten years and the history was fascinating, though I didnt really get into it as much as I should have then. It seems all the focus was on the Battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro).

Your blade seems to me full profile, so dont think it is cut down, and it is of course forged steel. The hilts were iron or brass.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 14th November 2006, 04:16 AM   #9
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Default A side note

Thanks Jim for all the input.
I have been thinking, about this blade, when I started you could not see a pattern or mark on my blade.
I wanted to find my family history and connect with my roots.
As I began to conserve the blade and the decorations began to appear, the blade took on a life of it's own.
The battle marks on the blade have begun to speak to me.
Clearly this blade has seen battle and has taken life or limb. This has weighed on me at times as I have spent many hours with oil and flitz to reveal the blade under years of rust.
I got the sword in 1974 from my grandfather, and took it to my dad and it sat in a gun cabinet till last year when I rescued it. And started this journey.
My search is about history and my family and has become about the blade.
From my records , a member of my family has served during every war from the civil war to Desert storm. I served during Viet Nam.
When I look at this blade I wonder, where it has been and what it has seen.
That is why I need to know who made it where has it been and what has it seen, and I will not give up till I know.
I have approached this trying to match the size, type and measurments of my blade thinking that it is the best way to ID my blade.
I hope to find the source, solingen, oxacac or toledo and trace how it came to my family.
Others have been critical of my posts and my efforts, but they don't understand.
This isn't a piece of metal, this is my history, my life, my childrens legacy
Regards
Matt
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Old 14th November 2006, 04:36 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Matt,
I'm glad you have spoken to Juan Perez as he is one of the most knowledgable people I know on Spanish swords, so I am glad that he agrees this blade is, like many of the other triple fuller examples, from Solingen.
As Chamberlain notes in his book, many of these blades were hilted in Mexico with three bar iron hilts in the 1820's and 30's. English hilts seem quite likely, although the three bar hilt became popular with a number of countries during those times. Yours does seem English.

Interesting on the PDL, which certainly seems to represent Luneschloss, who furnished edged weapons for Britain, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S.- "where Luneschloss supplied both sides during the US Civil War of 1861-65"
("Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918", John Walter, 1975, p111-114). This reference notes further, "...quantities of etched and engraved weapons were also marketed alongside cutlery and tableware".

While this reference clearly is assigned in scope to the period after the Civil War, the existing history of the makers prior to that time is discussed briefly.
It should be noted that Luneschloss worked closely with London dealers, much as many German makers had for many years, and that England was of course quite active in supplying Confederate forces. Although the obviously Mexican motif seems misplaced on a sword found in Confederate hands, it does seem as I mentioned, not that surprising given the complexities of supply networking during those wartime years. While most of the Luneschloss blades I have seen were stamped, especially the U.S. examples. On an interesting side note, when the U.S.pattern 1840 cavalry sabres were introduced, the earliest examples were actually German made! until Ames took the contract.

I still am inclined to think that the blade may have been decorated in Germany, it would appear by Luneschloss, and the cursive script may have been because it might have been intended in some diplomatic sense? It is really difficult to say, yet we know where it ended up

Do your records show what location in Tennessee the action took place?
I lived in Nashville for nearly ten years and the history was fascinating, though I didnt really get into it as much as I should have then. It seems all the focus was on the Battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro).

Your blade seems to me full profile, so dont think it is cut down, and it is of course forged steel. The hilts were iron or brass.

All the best,
Jim


The report I have lists Mill Creek as the locationof the skirmish. I don't know if that helps.
Thanks
Best regards
Matt
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Old 14th November 2006, 03:28 PM   #11
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Default Murfreesboro Jan. 3 1863

Hi Jim.
There is an account in the report of a supply train on the way to Murfreesboro being attccked by a force of about 3000 rebels and that they were turned away after having lost 10 killed and 15 wounded and taken prisoner.
That was co's A & D and some other Infantry.
The train my gg grandfather was on and attacked was the Mill Creek, Nashville and Chattanooga and was on it's way to Lavergne.
In the report it states that the Michigan marched 1700 miles in 22 months and that many of the men went barefoot for extended periods.
War is hell.

Do you know of a way to find any Solingen Sword makers that were in business during that era? I have done a lot of searches on Google and Yahoo and have not been succesfull finding any yet.

Thanks again for all you're help!

Regards
Matt
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Old 20th November 2006, 12:19 AM   #12
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Hi Matt,
Sorry for the absence, busy week!!
On Solingen makers, one of the best resources would probably be Richard Bezdek's book on German swordsmiths. The one I use is "Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918" (John Walter, 1973).

I came across an interesting item in a rather unusually titled book, "Jumbos Hide, Elvis' Ride and Tooth of Buddha" (Harvey Rachlin, N.Y.2000) which sounds like the title for a really, really bad B-movie! Actually the book is an extremely interesting collection of information on historical relics and artifacts that was the basis for the program, "Americas Lost and Found".

On p.152 is an article titled "The Battle Sword of Colonel Najera".
It concerns the Mexican-American War and an unusual 'duel' which took place during battle on Sept. 21,1846 near Monterrey, Mexico. Apparantly Col. John C. Hays (Texas Rangers fame) was challenged by Col. Juan N.Najera of the Jalisco Cavalry (Gen. Manuel Romeros brigade of Lancers). In the combat, where Najera was killed, both men had swords drawn. The sabre was later retrieved and held by Hays' family, eventually ending up in the Gene Autry Museum of Western Heritage near Los Angeles.

The sabre looks remarkably the same as yours, and its blade has the same three fuller blade we have discussed. This is simply further support for the provenance of Mexican sabres from that war becoming property of U.S. forces , many of whom became Confederate officers in later years. The Confederates often even advertised for weapons to add to thier arsenals, from any sources available.

Hope you will find this added information interesting

All the best,
Jim
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Old 20th November 2006, 03:00 PM   #13
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Hi Jim, nice to hear from you, I will check the local librarys for that book, is there a photo of the sword in the book?
I have looked for German Swords and Sword Makers and no book store has one nor do the librarys within 200 miles of me.
On the thread I posted on the German Language forum on SFI a gentleman directed me to the Klingenmuseum, I have sent them some photos of my sword, they said that they may be able to help me.
I found a teacher at a college in South Dakota who knows the Aragon family in Oaxaca and I sent them an e-mail but have not heard back from them.
The attached photos; my great grandfather's living room around 1885. I hade to scan it to get the picture of my gg grandfather holding the sword and is from the Civil War.
My sword is on top of the piano in the upper left and the picture is on the lower right of the piano.
Thanks again for all of you're help!
Regards
Matt
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Old 21st November 2006, 01:09 AM   #14
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Hi Matt,
The title "German Swords and Sword Makers" by Richard H. Bezdek is available on Amazon books.
Outstanding and exciting photos of the sword in your grandfathers possession! It is so remarkable to see one of these swords that is so faultlessly provenanced. Nice follow up research you are doing as well.
There is a photo of the Najera sword in the book, but as always very poor quality. Possibly contacting that museum they will furnish a photo.
Thanks for keeping this going and keeping us up with the research as well as sharing the great photos!
I think your shot of the sword against the clouded sky is a masterpiece!
Pulitzer prize stuff!!
All the best,
Jim
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Old 23rd November 2006, 06:40 PM   #15
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Default Najera

Hi Jim,
Here is the Museum's online image, it is under 2 captions, one says the sword of Lts. Col. Nagera who lost the fight to Hayes. The other says, a presentation sword given to Maj. Hawkins for the defense of Fort Brown.
I'm guessing that the top sword Was Najera's, the hilt is the same as the etched swords on my blade.

I wonder if you have noticed if diffrent bladesmiths shape and size their fullers and ricasso in the same way on all they make, like a signiture, or do they vary due to the technology of the time?

The fullers on my blade stop farther away from the hilt than those on the sword in Spanish Weapons in Colonial...
Just wondering if this may have been a regional or specific makers trait.

Thanks again for all the help.
Best Regards
Matt
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Old 25th November 2006, 04:16 AM   #16
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Hi Matt,
The top sword is indeed the Najera sabre, nice work on locating the photo!

Interesting idea about fullering being distinctive to a particular maker. It would seem that in general the forms were very similar in accordance to the technology or popular style at the time. It seems there was always a great deal of innovation and testing being done on swords, ironically much beyond thier being superceded by firearms. There are instances where certain blade forms used key cross section patterns in the work of some makers during certain periods, at least in some research I can recall in studying British cavalry swords, but not with enough consistancy for certainty. I think any variation in the fullers as you mention would be more inclined to deviation in manufacturing process, possibly subcontracted work, as became more often the case in advancing industrialization in centers such as Solingen.

I still think the PDL engraved in script is an interesting anomaly worthy of more research. I am waiting for the Bezdek book myself in hopes there might be something in it concerning that. There is a lot of data published in Germany on the history of Solingen, but without translated material, not very accessible. I know that the journals of the German arms and armour society which go back into the early years of the 20th century have articles on German makers, hopefully the Bezdek book will reference.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 26th November 2006, 08:36 AM   #17
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Hi Matt,
Still at it here!
In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL).

It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche.

In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839).

With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword.

Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further.

As always, very much enjoying the adventure!! Thanks Matt!

All the best,
Jim
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Old 11th December 2006, 01:19 AM   #18
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Hi Matt,
Just a brief update!
Going through the Wallace Collection catalog on an entirely different quest, came across p,268 #A520, a rehilted sword with a blade dating c.1770, by P.Knecht and with the 'Spanish motto' draw me not without reason etc.
This of course supports the theory that these blades were indeed from Solingen.
Best regards,
Jim
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Old 11th December 2006, 04:35 AM   #19
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Hello Jim! I've got a Colonial Spanish sword with the 3 bar hilted guard, a solid brass lion hilt and straight Spanish broadsword-style sword with the 3 fullers. It is made by a German maker identified via Bezdek (I'm at work and can't remember their names) as from the 1800-1837 period and it has the Spanish motto "Draw me without reason,etc,etc."
The hilt has the classic primative line decorations to the bars, so typical of Spanish colonial. Very interesting discussion here.
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Old 11th December 2006, 03:42 PM   #20
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Hi Mark!!
Its great to hear from you!! Its been a while, and I remember our discussions on that sword, extremely nice piece!
Maybe you could put in a photo of it to enhance the discussion on this very interesting topic on these swords of early Mexico.
Thank you for coming in on this.
All the best,
Jim

Matt, you still out there?
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Old 13th December 2006, 01:39 AM   #21
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Hello, Jim! I remember fondly our discussions on Spanish colonial and "pirate" swords. Unfortunately, I am still computer-illiterate when it comes to posting pics anywhere, let alone on this forum. Sorry! Still, I'm glad you mentioned the connection with Solingen makers using the Spanish saying. One must remember that not all markings can be taken literally (otherwise, almost every Scottish basket was made in Italy by Andrea Fererra!). You don't know how many times I've had people insist that my sword blade was re-etched or spuriously marked!
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Old 14th December 2006, 11:24 PM   #22
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Hi Jim and Mark,
Thanks for you're input!
Sorry for the absence, I didn't get any notification about you're posts,
( I was getting e-mail when ever someone posted on my thread but have not got one since last month)
I have been doing searches looking for images of swords to compare to mine,
and trying to contact long lost relatives who might know more about how my GG Grandfather and the Sword, his Whitney Ball and Cap Revolver and a Cane Sword that I have that I think was his.
I have not heard back for Casa Aragon or The Klingemuseum.
I am somewhat at a loss about the decorations, I have seen some good examples of tri-fuller blades with the spanish motto draw me... but I have not found one with the eagle, canon and floral pattern with flags.
I had hoped that the Klingenmuseum would have some record of P D L etching blades with these themes.
Thanks Jim and Mark for you're input!
Is the "Wallace Collection" in a specific book?
Jim what do you make of the eagle, canon, and flags?
I have not been able to find a connection to the Treaty Map, but it seems to me that the eagle with the canon and flags could have something to do with the end of the Mexican/ American War, would those lend more to an Infantry or a Calvary unit?
Best Regards
Matt
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Old 18th December 2006, 05:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
Hello, Jim! I remember fondly our discussions on Spanish colonial and "pirate" swords. Unfortunately, I am still computer-illiterate when it comes to posting pics anywhere, let alone on this forum. Sorry! Still, I'm glad you mentioned the connection with Solingen makers using the Spanish saying. One must remember that not all markings can be taken literally (otherwise, almost every Scottish basket was made in Italy by Andrea Fererra!). You don't know how many times I've had people insist that my sword blade was re-etched or spuriously marked!


Hi Mark,
Thanks for you're input.
Do you have the ability to e-mail a photo of you're sword?
I will send you my e-mail if you can and I will post it here.
Regards
Matt
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Old 18th December 2006, 05:40 PM   #24
Matt Branch
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Default Still searching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Mark!!
Its great to hear from you!! Its been a while, and I remember our discussions on that sword, extremely nice piece!
Maybe you could put in a photo of it to enhance the discussion on this very interesting topic on these swords of early Mexico.
Thank you for coming in on this.
All the best,
Jim

Matt, you still out there?

Hi Jim,
I am still looking for more information on Spanish Colonial Swords.
I expect to acuire a copy of German Swords and Sword Makers soon.
I posted again on the SFI German language forum and a gentleman there also thinks the blade is Lonenschloss you can see the thread on SFI
Is there anywhere to look for more on the rehilting of these swords?
Regards
Matt

Last edited by Lee : 18th December 2006 at 07:13 PM. Reason: Fix hyperlink
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Old 27th December 2006, 10:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Matt,
Still at it here!
In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL).

It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche.

In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839).

With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword.

Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further.

As always, very much enjoying the adventure!! Thanks Matt!

All the best,
Jim


Hi Jim,
I've been trying to find the information you wrote here so I could document it, and I'm having trouble finding it after many searches.
Do you have a copy of any of Albaugh's 3 books on confererats swords? I can't afford all the books I've found.
Do you remember where it is recorded about the PDL etched or inscribed in cursive blades?
Is the Wallace Collection a book? When I do a search, there are thousands of hits but not a sword collection.
I finally got an e-mail from Guerillmo Aragon and sent him some pictures, have not heard back yet.
I have not heard back from the Klingenmeuseum yet either.
I did find a book that was written by one of my ancestors and published with a Michigan historical society that mentions the sword and pistols in my g great grandfathers house right after the Cival War.
I'm still trying to figure out the decorations, still can't find anyting like them,
I can't travel to the museums with good collections.
Thanks again Jim for all you're help, got any suggestions on where I can find information on the decorations?
Regards
Matt
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Old 10th January 2007, 03:20 PM   #26
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Default some more photos

I have e-mailed a link to my thread to some people to see the photos of my sword in hopes of more information on the decoration. I wanted to post a couple more photos of diffrent details.
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Old 17th January 2007, 12:33 AM   #27
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Default Department Of Agriculture Report

This is an excerpt from the 1867 report

Report of Sgt. Thomas Branch, Co. I, Tenth Michigan Infantry
MILL CREEK, NASHVILLE AND CHATTANOOGA RAILROAD,
January 27, 1863.
COLONEL: In accordance with your order, which I received this day, I will proceed to write a statement of facts relating to the skirmish which took place near here on the 25th instant.
The engine, with a number of cars, started in the direction of La Vergne. There were from 25 to 30 men on the cars, acting as a train guard. In a short time after the train moved, I heard firing up the track. Supposing it to be an attack on the train, I ordered my men to fall in. In three minutes we were moving on a double-quick up the track. We soon came upon a rebel mounted picket, who ordered us to halt. We replied by sending a number of shots after him. He ran, and we saw no more of him.
I now ordered 12 men to move forward as skirmishers until they came opposite the train, then rally and move toward the road. The balance of my men moved up toward the track on the right of the skirmishers. When we came within a few yards of the train we could distinctly hear the rebels at work burning the train. Some one halloed, "Tom, hurry up; the devils are burning the train!" We were now opposite the train, and I gave the command, "Rally on the right file." We soon got into line and moved up within range, when we gave them a volley. They jumped from the cars and ran for their horses, which were tied to a fence about 60 rods from the train. We gave one yell and charged on them, or I should say after them, for they had got quite the start of us. We drove them into the woods, until we saw at least two companies of cavalry in line waiting for the car-burners, who were about 40 in number. They retreated over a hill and we left them.
We now devoted our attention to putting out the fires which they had kindled on the train with rails. Some of the fires had got pretty well to going, and one car was partly burned up. After putting out the fires, we ran the train into our camp.
We captured two horses, with equipments, and several guns. How many we killed I know not. The paroled prisoners who were captured on the train say they know we killed two and wounded a number. These are the facts, as near as I can state them.

THOMAS BRANCH, Sergeant Company I, Tenth Michigan Infantry,
Comdg. Guard to Construction Train on Nash. and Chat. R.
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Old 17th January 2007, 12:45 AM   #28
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Default Whitney #4975

This is the Whitney ball and cap revolver that was handed down to me with the sword and was also carried in the Civil War by my ancestor. The serial number is 4975 and would date it to the early war time frame.
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Old 17th January 2007, 01:37 AM   #29
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That is a truly beautiful sword Matt

Edited to say
Its branches remind me of a crude Iron hilt saber I have,only yours are much more gracefully done


By the way nice pistol too

Last edited by Alan62 : 17th January 2007 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 17th January 2007, 02:25 PM   #30
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Default More about your sword

Thanks Alan, tell me more about your sword, where is it from, when was it made ect
Regards
Matt
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