Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th July 2020, 03:14 PM   #1
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default Cabasset circa 1600 (with arsenal marking to identify)

Hi guys,

Here is a cabasset from the early 17th century, it has a crest and is made in two parts. With its original black color. We can easily compare this cabasset to the engravings of Jacob De Gheyn in his work published in 1608 "Handling of arms". It is an unattractive model, but one that I find very interesting. This type of helmet had to exist in large numbers to equip the infantry. And ultimately very few have come down to us.
Attached Images
         

Last edited by Lansquenet59; 19th July 2020 at 09:28 AM.
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2020, 03:15 PM   #2
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default

Here is the digital version of Jacob De Gheyn's book. Good viewing.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bt...6571r/f7.image
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2020, 03:24 PM   #3
DavidIEvans
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Default Cabasset

Where did this come from ? Provenance ?

Any pictures of the insides as I'd like to see any washers left in place
DavidIEvans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2020, 09:30 PM   #4
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default

It comes from Germany, I will take more photos later, there is a fragment of leather under the chinstrap rivet.
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 04:51 AM   #5
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lansquenet59
Hi guys,

Here is a cabasset from the early 17th century, it has a crest and is made in two parts. It is an unattractive model, but one that I find very interesting. This type of helmet had to exist in large numbers to equip the infantry. And ultimately very few have come down to us.
Not a work of art, but as you say quite important from a functional standpoint. Munition-quality equipment like this had to be both sturdy to protect the soldier wearing it, and procurable in sufficient quantity and at affordable price for the state. Considering the frequency of wars, and the tendency of old helmets to be repurposed into things like buckets and basins, it's no wonder that they are scarce today.

Question: Is it possible to measure the thickness of the metal at and around the top, as opposed to the brim or lower round the sides? Noticeable difference between those regions, or uniform thickness? Am interested to know if the workshop made an allowance for thicker iron in the more crucial areas.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 09:15 AM   #6
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default

I just made a surprising discovery! When taking close-up photos, I notice a workshop punch, it looks like an angel! I am happy, maybe you know more?
To answer Philippe, the metal is indeed very solid, and of the same thickness everywhere. The total weight is 1190 grams.
Attached Images
     
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 10:53 AM   #7
DavidIEvans
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Default

The same thickness all over is a little concerning as that indicates rolled plate, not hammered plate. But it's

Weight wise it's fine.

The other area that concerns me is the lack of washers. It's possible this helmet suffered restoration in the 19th Century, which lost any surviving washers. The tiny piece of leather under a doesn't rule that out as that may be part of that restoration.

17th Century washers were cut from a strip so weren't round.
DavidIEvans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 10:55 AM   #8
DavidIEvans
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Default

Forgot another point

The edges where the metal is folded over looks OK and a period technique, rather than wrapping the fold around wire.

For examples of other helmets of the same style look here

http://www.allenantiques.com/Armour-...ollection.html
DavidIEvans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 11:09 AM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lansquenet59
... I notice a workshop punch, it looks like an angel! I am happy, maybe you know more?...
Having marks, even if unidentified, is always a good sign ... and value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lansquenet59
. total weight is 1190 grams.
Not tremendously heavy, but heavy enough to be the real thing ... don't you agree, Filipe ?
fernando is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 11:54 AM   #10
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default

True Fernando, in my opinion, cabassets and morions generally weigh between 1kg and 1.6kg, it all depends on the quality of the manufacture. By comparing with my other pieces.
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 12:53 PM   #11
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 382
Default

Nice helmet , the weight of these can indeed vary a lot , the same goes for close helmets of this period they can vary from 2 kg to 7 kg
helmet for troopers produced in high numbers as these and as the lobster tail helmet were mostly not that heavy , but there are betters quality exceptions out there.
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 03:22 PM   #12
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando


Not tremendously heavy, but heavy enough to be the real thing ... don't you agree, Filipe ?
Yes, Nando, it's definitely kosher... The weight alone is not a sole indicator of authenticity, recall that a good number of Victorian-era copies of earlier pieces were made of cast iron, or had parts produced in that way, so that they are excessively heavy compared to the real thing.

We should also consider that by ca. 1600, the improvements in firearms would have required heavy enough armor to reduce mobility and increase cost to unacceptable levels. Unless in the case of specialized units like siege troops who were expected to experience concentrated fire from larger-bore weapons like rampart rifles and falconets (as well as cannons) as they approached the walls of fortresses or cities. For most soldiers operating in the field, protection against secondary projectiles like shrapnel, and of course swords and other hand weapons, was considered sufficient. (keeping in mind, also, that for speed of fire, infantry muskets were typically loaded with unpatched balls so accuracy and velocity declined markedly after 50 m). Officers and others who could afford to purchase their own gear could of course opt for higher quality and more protection, hence the better-made and more substantial armors that we sometimes see.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 04:19 PM   #13
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default

Do you think this punch could be that of Munich?
Attached Images
  
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2020, 05:33 PM   #14
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidIEvans
The same thickness all over is a little concerning as that indicates rolled plate, not hammered plate. .
Info as referenced in Art Gogan, Fighting Iron: A Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors ( 1999 ):

1. First plate mill for armor production set up in England during reign of Queen Elizabeth I (1558-1603), as mentioned in a text published 1624.

2. By the mid-1550s, rolling mills to produce silver and gold in sheets of uniform thickness operational in France for the royal mint.

****

So it would seem that the concept existed in theory and practice by the time this helmet was made.

Of course, even if the raw material reached its initial format via some sort of machine, in those days the helmet would be given its final form by hammering on various bench stakes since machinery capable of die-stamping the asymmetrical components for large objects like this had to wait for the Industrial Revolution. Thus, tool marks from the shaping processes would still be apparent on the finished product.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2020, 10:48 PM   #15
BUCC_Guy
Member
 
BUCC_Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 52
Default

Adding some closeups of my De Gheyns.
Attached Images
  
BUCC_Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2020, 09:56 PM   #16
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,064
Default

[QUOTE=Lansquenet59]I just made a surprising discovery! When taking close-up photos, I notice a workshop punch, it looks like an angel! I am happy, maybe you know more?
To answer Philippe, the metal is indeed very solid, and of the same thickness everywhere. The total weight is 1190 grams.[/.

Dutch pickman pot.
This mark :double headed eagle of the city Maastricht.
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2020, 04:17 PM   #17
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 132
Default

Thank you very much Cerjak. I came across one of your subjects from 2017, with the same model of helmet.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=214741
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.