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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:53 AM   #1
David Gallas
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Default Please some info about this keris

Hello members, i got an account some years ago, but are new on this forum. I got this keris, as a pusaka, but like to have some more information about this keris. Does anyone know something about the pamor?
Or anny information about this keris.

The first owner, for sofar we can see is born in Yogja an lived in Tegal.

Looking forward to your oppinion.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:38 AM   #2
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Well welcome to the forum David. Glad to see you are finally making your first post.
That does indeed seem to be a lovely old keris. Also seems to be an old sunggingan wrongko with a nice silver pendok and a rare form of planar hilt. If you are able better photos of all parts would be helpful in sorting out any new information you don't already have.
Can you tell us more about how you received this as pusaka and what provenance you have that the first owner may have been born in Yogyakarta and lived in Tegal?
BTW, i believe that planar hilt form that you have with the "pot belly" is known as Narada Kandha. The form can be found at least in both Central and East Jawa and though i would need to see better photos, your appears to be an old and well carved example.

Last edited by David : 23rd January 2019 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:42 AM   #3
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Default more info

Hello David

Yes sorry, i"ll try to post some better pictures.

I'm part of the Dutch-Indonesian community. When the Dutch went to Indonesia, some 300 years ago, it were mainly men. They mixed with the Indonesian and we formed
a etnic group called Indo's. We are the biggest etnic group in Holland with 800.000 people and we kept the Indonesian culture from before the 2nd worldware.
About the keris we still follow Kejawen, but then the les syncretic version from before the 2nd worldware.
During the 2nd world ware we were a easy target because we have European names, that's why we moved to Holland in the 50th......
My Dutsh friends sometimes don't follow me when i talk about the energy of the keris, but the Dutch are very open so we could honnour our keris the way we liked to!

The owner of this keris commes from central Java, and is very ill.

His wife is European and doesn't feel much with the keris and we like to keep the pusaka's inside our etnic group to give it a good house, they don't have children.
He got the keris from his mother, who got the keris from her father, an army commander from Yogjakarta who also lived in Tegal. It is unknown where he got the keris from, and also what
i wrote here is not completely what they told me, the wife told me the grandfather was a Admiraal what is a navy title, so i changed to commander....that is always the difficulty about
old stories, family members don't have the original story or title and use the words that are commonly used in the family.....
I wanted to know more about his grandfather, and we are goung to see us more to talk about the keris, but he got an agressive form of cancer,
so you can understand that it's Eugene, that's his name, first and the keris on second place.

The pendok is made of gold, not gold plated but massive gold. I'm a goldsmith.
Also strange on this keris is the combong, but then absolute round, the owner called it the "whish hole..."
I like to know more about the painting, and my question is if Yogja has the same rules for colours as Solo? The basic colour was bleu.
I cannot recognice the pamor, just some of it spread over the blade.
I realy like the light sogokan who is very high on the blade. What does this mean?
Also the grip is something i've never seen. Yogja, Solo or maybe from the little kingdoms i do not know much about...

I would realy appresiate if i could get some more info about this keris!
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:48 AM   #4
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Default some more pictures

I added some extra pictures...
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:20 PM   #5
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Wow! Thank you David, for that additional background and, of course, the much better photos. I like this keris even more now that i can get a good look at it. This is and old and beautiful keris IMHO and you are very fortunate to have become the present custodian of it.
Before i passed these new posts i did add to my first response more info about your hilt. I believe this "pot bellied" style of the planar Nunggak Semi hilt form is referred to as Narada Kandha. Now that i have seen better photos i can confirm that this is an older hilt that was nicely carved.
I can't name this pamor for you, but perhaps someone else will give it a shot. This is an old blade and there has certainly been some loss so it is harder to identify.
You are correct to identify the wrongko as Yogyakarta gayaman form. I am afraid that i do not know the answer to you question about color symbolism for Yogya kraton, but perhaps Alan Maisey might know the answer to this. On the color i see a lot of blue, but i believe that the background/base color of the sunggingan work might be closer to orange.
The pendok is unusual and beautiful. Is it possible that it might be suassa (a low gold content metal) because with the new photos it doesn't look like high gold content and seems have some tarnish which high content gold would not have.
My feeling about gold and silver parts on keris ensembles is that they are meant to shine. I know some collectors worry about removing "precious" patina. Bronze should have patina. Gold should be bright. So if this were in my care i would polish up this pendok and return it to its intended glory.
I am still not completely sure i see the combong. Is it a tiny little hole at the base of the pecetan that i think i can make out in the silhouette photo? If so i have never seen one so small. Interesting.
Thanks so much for sharing your story and this beautiful keris!
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Old 23rd January 2019, 06:42 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
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No David, I do not know the "colour code" for Yogyakarta sunggingan work.

I am unable to determine the motif used in the sunggingan work.

The "wish hole" looks very much like the gap we frequently find between wilah and gonjo, as such it cannot be regarded as a combong, however, as is common in matters of belief, an individual can always subscribe to his own beliefs.

David Gallus has told us that he is a goldsmith, so if he says this pendok is gold I fully believe that statement, however, if it has been tested as gold, may we know the level of purity?

On my screen this pendok looks very much like mamas and the embossing also looks as if it is work done in mamas.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:26 AM   #7
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Default keris info

Hi David, thnx for your replay. So the handle is Solo, Naranda Khanda? I know the east Javanese handles, but not for Yogja.
It also doesn't have that round from Yogja but more that edgy like Solo??
I'll upload some hilt forms, but my knowledge about handles is limited.

You are correct, the pendok and mendak needs some care! I'm going to test the pendok this afternoon to see what karat comes out.

Hi Mr Maisey. I cut gemstones and make rings out of it. I use the simple methode of a stone and 4 fluids, 8k, 14k, 18k and 21,5k.

I"ll do the test again this afternoon and upload the pictures of the result.

Kind regards

David
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:13 PM   #8
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Well i tested it and a little disappointing, it cannot be classified as gold! I was so convinced that it was gold because of the feel, silver and gold transport heat very well, and the colour, but gold can only be clasified as gold if it contains more than 50% gold!

I tested with 4 bottles, the right is 21.5k, then 18k, 14k and at the left 8k.
You can see that the three on the right disappeared so it must be under 14k.
Only the 8k stayed, so it could be >8k gold.

So metal pendok containing gold....

About gold, and i mainly work with rings, the official Indonesian gold is >21.5k what is absolutely not good for a ring, i'll post a ring and you can see that it is actual to soft. In Indonesia there are a lot of objects from silver in 72% that cannot be classified as silver but are totally genuine because that is the exact percentage of silver in the dutch coins. Also i see lots of rings in 14k gold, also the Dutch standard for gold, so probably made in order of someone who brought his own gold. I realy thought this would be 14k, but the test gives this result.
Suasa is possible because it is normaly 9k...
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gallas
So the handle is Solo, Naranda Khanda? I know the east Javanese handles, but not for Yogja.
It also doesn't have that round from Yogja but more that edgy like Solo?

Yes David, i would say that given that small "knot" over the top cecekan that this hilt is probably of Surakarta origin.
Thanks for confirming the gold content of the pendok. Suassa is what i would call it at 8%. It is still a beautiful pendok no matter how much gold content there is.
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Old 25th January 2019, 06:32 AM   #10
A. G. Maisey
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Yes, if it tests at 8K, that is OK for suwasa, actually, suwasa bubul.

Funny thing is though, the colour on my screen comes up like nickel silver, which would make it mamas.

I've only ever seen suwasa alloyed with copper, and then it comes up looking like rose gold. Peculiar.

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Old 25th January 2019, 07:39 AM   #11
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Hello David,
The pamor pattern of your blade is difficult to identify with some certainty because it is scattered and significantly worn-out. One assumption would be pamor tambal (patch) but I would rather think that it used to be a full pamor pattern such as lar gangsir (cricket wings) but eroded with time. Other opinions are welcome.
Regarding the style of hilt, I agree that it probably originates from Solo but am not sure that it can be classified as Narada Kandha because of its unusual curved shape, see a more typical specimen.
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Old 25th January 2019, 09:04 AM   #12
A. G. Maisey
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This type of hilt is what we call a "kagok" hilt, the word "kagok" means awkward or strange, it is a description rather than a name. This type of kagok hilt with exaggerated angular form is usually associated with Jawa Timur, more to the west than to the East. It really does not belong on this wrongko.
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Old 25th January 2019, 09:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
This type of hilt is what we call a "kagok" hilt, the word "kagok" means awkward or strange, it is a description rather than a name. This type of kagok hilt with exaggerated angular form is usually associated with Jawa Timur, more to the west than to the East. It really does not belong on this wrongko.


Yes I agree, and this hilt looks less old than the kris itself.
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Old 25th January 2019, 11:04 AM   #14
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Dear Mister David, you are correct, but my disappointment was not about the pendok, but more of my own mis about the gold....

Dear Mister Maisey, i agree with what you see. I"ll try to upload some pictures with as bench mark some other keris with pendok, and with a white shit on the background. The pendok is absolute darker. Thank you for the name suasa bubul, i didn't know that!

Dear Mister Jean, i also thought, like you and mister David that it is probably Solo but i was not completely sure because of the odd form. Naranda Khanda is from a spiritual view very plausible because if you can have the messanger of the god as a guard for your pusaka... Looking at an other person with belly, then Bima would also be a great guard, the big hero of the Mahabarata, but doesn't know if that exist.

I also think your right about a twisted pamor. It would be nice to know, a new keris is always a puzzle, trying to get into the mind of the creator of the keris....
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:50 PM   #15
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Agreed, the hilt has some age and is well carved, but it appears younger than the rest of this ensemble and i agree with Alan that it does not seem quite right for it.
Alan, i find it is quite often impossible to tell the actual color of objects in internet photos. They are taken by people with a great range of photographic skills and usually not white balanced or color corrected properly to show accurate colors. Most unskilled photographers are therefore at the mercy of the available light they are shooting in matched against the often incorrect accuracy of the auto white balance of whatever level of camera they are shooting with.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:14 PM   #16
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You're dead right David, but colour is a significant part of any process of identification, so if I see a pendok that looks more like nickel silver than like any sort of gold I've ever seen, plus the embossing shows characteristics I expect to see in mamas, well, its a bit difficult for me conjure gold out of that image.

In the bottom photo of the new images, the colour is beginning to approach something that might be gold, additionally, the embossing in the toe of the pendok looks more like what I would expect in gold than in mamas.
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Old 25th January 2019, 07:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gallas
Looking at an other person with belly, then Bima would also be a great guard, the big hero of the Mahabarata, but doesn't know if that exist.


Hello David,
The fat hilts could be reminiscent of Semar, I have seen several recent hilts depicting Semar with a big belly on the Dutch kris market.
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:14 AM   #18
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First of all, thnk you all for your analysis!

Just from the feel Mr David, Mr Jean and Mr Maisey, the handle was not original to this keris. Problem is that it is a heirloom, the fact that paman Eugene had this in his hands, and his mother and his grandfather, what makes it impossible to change the grip...
For me it even adds something to the story!

For as far as i have heard this grip was on there since the 1910 1925.
The grip could be changed before that, when given to the grandfather, for what ever reason.

Grip is called deder Kagok, with a link to probably Jawa timor,
Pendok of suasa bubul, >8k.
wranka and keris old, looks Jogya, i thought begin 19th century.
Paintings unknown....

Mr Jean, you are correct, Semar with the cucung....i"ll post a picture of the one i have.

If there is annyone who got a suggestion about the pamor, plaese add...
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:22 AM   #19
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Default Semar

Semar grip.
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