Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 8th March 2018, 11:35 AM   #1
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,055
Default WW2 KATANA, Dont think so / buyer beware

saw an auction ending last week for a "ww2 katana"

Let you be the Judge, but the markings on this blade might as well read : made in China

https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels...n_ related_lot
Attached Images
 

Last edited by asomotif : 8th March 2018 at 09:12 PM. Reason: added picture
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2018, 12:09 PM   #2
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 514
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
saw an auction ending last week for a "ww2 katana"

Let you be the Judge, but the markings on this blade might as well read : made in China

https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels...n_ related_lot


Definitely no Japanese Katana. But China had swords, which were very similar to Katana. Many of them were made from railway-steel and in some cases like this it is not too easy to see, whether we have a modern copy or a Chinese version of a Katana from early 20th ct..

Btw. nowadays Chinese are able to make Katana of high quality and one need very well trained eyes to see the difference!

If someone however confused this sword with a true Japanese Katana, this person is absolutely unknowingly.


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2018, 05:37 PM   #3
Treeslicer
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
saw an auction ending last week for a "ww2 katana"

Let you be the Judge, but the markings on this blade might as well read : made in China

https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels...n_ related_lot

That is not only an older Chinese fake war relic (from when they etched horimono rather than carved them), but it was advertised as an "officer's" model, when the tsuka is plainly copied from the NCO style. The mounts are non-regulation in other ways as well. Disgusting.
Treeslicer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2018, 05:49 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,346
Default

Catawiki sell a lot of scrap and the so called experts from them know next to nothing!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 10:01 AM   #5
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 190
Default

I have already reported to the "experts" of catawiki very large errors of identification concerning fossils (my main specialty) but I never had an answer and the ads have never been corrected ....
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 11:43 AM   #6
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,711
Default

I've read somewhere that the chinese copied the european style Kyū guntō cavalry sabres of the japanese so well that the chinese copies are better made, and of better steel, and that the chinese copies are actually worth more than the japanse ones they were based on. they have slight differences, one being the chinese did not use a japanese crysanthemum flower decoration.

The originally posted shin guntō ersatz tachi is not of this caliber.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 12:54 PM   #7
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,267
Default

More the people are stupids better it is for us:
the best deals come from wrong identifications!!
If we were all Einstein nobody will work in the factories!
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 02:12 PM   #8
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
the best deals come from wrong identifications!!


Yes but often we do not find them because we do not search for keywords related to the bad identification.
And for fossils, misidentification will inflate the price if we put the name of another animal more "sexy" (the mammoth attracts more than the hippo ....) because often the buyers have only very little knowledge in paleontology, they just want beautiful fossils because cabinets of curiosities are in vogue!
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 04:03 PM   #9
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
More the people are stupids better it is for us:
the best deals come from wrong identifications!!


Hi Kubur,

you are very correct! But I am special angry to the so called "experts" from catawiki as they have sold very recent art work keris of low quality for extremely high prices maybe because the "experts" say ok for a high price and let pass a description of antique/19th century for recent Madura keris "art". On the other hand an other expert valued an antique high end salawaku from my collection by only 200 Euro!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 07:36 PM   #10
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,055
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Kubur,

you are very correct! But I am special angry to the so called "experts" from catawiki as they have sold very recent art work keris of low quality for extremely high prices maybe because the "experts" say ok for a high price and let pass a description of antique/19th century for recent Madura keris "art". On the other hand an other expert valued an antique high end salawaku from my collection by only 200 Euro!

Regards,
Detlef


Hello Detlef,

Catawiki does not sell, they offer the auction website.
It is the ignorant buyer who is willing to buy these keris at relatively high prices. I have noticed the same indded with often very simple javanese keris being sold for high prices.

I started this thread firstly to warn for chinese katana's being still offered as WW2 shin gunto on auction websites, and partially because I am also suprised about the sometimes strange auctions at Catawiki.
I have asked Catawiki a few questions regarding items and found that in some cases they refers to the sellers expertise. As probably in this case with the "WW2 "katana.
On the other hand I have heard that they can be very strict about what they accept for their website to be auctioned. as probably with your Salawaku.

I guess it must be impossible for them to have experts that now everything.
But they do have a some well known names and in these cases I have seen auctions where the expert(s) should have known better imho.

Anyway, always use your brain before bidding. Buyer beware.

Best regards,
Willem
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 08:34 PM   #11
Treeslicer
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
I've read somewhere that the chinese copied the european style Kyū guntō cavalry sabres of the japanese so well that the chinese copies are better made, and of better steel, and that the chinese copies are actually worth more than the japanse ones they were based on. they have slight differences, one being the chinese did not use a japanese crysanthemum flower decoration.

The originally posted shin guntō ersatz tachi is not of this caliber.


Please understand that I am addressing Chinese fake relics only, not modern nihonto replicas forged in China, many of the latter blades being nearly indistinguishable from modern Japanese shinken (the koshirae usually are another story, alas).

Chinese fake war relic swords, of whatever style, have no collectible value of which I am aware.

I've got a couple of Chinese fake WW II katana that I do Toyama-ryu with, with decorated, non-regulation "gunto" koshirae that are unquestionably better made than most regulation IJA contract swords, and 2 almost authentic tachi (folded and laminated carbon steel in almost indestructible rustproof copper alloy koshirae) I got for medieval reenactment. All 4 were being offered under false pretenses, but directly from China, at a very low price.

These Chinese "relic" swords, if you fully understand what you are buying, can be a rational choice for some uses. When well made, they are attractive, cut well, and withstand abuse. They make excellent victims to learn sword-polishing on. However, they are falsely marketed, and the Chinese, for whatever reason, have consistently failed to make them look like their Japanese models, generally by adding decorative features absent from the originals. and/or using boldly-etched pattern-welded steel that, while beautiful on its own, is inauthentic. The result is a usable and often attractive sword which repels knowledgeable collectors. Note also, in case I should post photos, that the tsuka same and ito wraps on mine were added to the outside of wrapless metal tsuka after I got them, to make them both better looking, and safer to use.

Last edited by Treeslicer : 10th March 2018 at 12:29 AM.
Treeslicer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 09:51 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Catawiki does not sell, they offer the auction website.


Hello Willem,
yes, of course you are correct, it's site similar to ebay. I should have said: "it get sold....on their site..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
It is the ignorant buyer who is willing to buy these keris at relatively high prices. I have noticed the same indded with often very simple javanese keris being sold for high prices..


I've contacted them as well in this issue with success, they ended all auctions with this wrong described keris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
On the other hand I have heard that they can be very strict about what they accept for their website to be auctioned. as probably with your Salawaku.


Yes, they are. But the expert in this case wasn't able to see differences in quality and age. And this is something I am awaiting from an expert in ethnic antiques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Anyway, always use your brain before bidding. Buyer beware.


Agree complete with you!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2018, 05:20 AM   #13
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,461
Exclamation Please proceed carefully on this topic

Gents:

Please note this is a general comment and not directed at any one person in particular.

While we all decry the unethical practices of certain online auctions and individual sellers, please watch your language if you are discussing specific items and identities. In our litigious society you never know if this may get you or this site into trouble. The Moderators will edit posts that they think have crossed the line.

Over the years we have noted here a number of online sites and sellers that were not being accurate about the items they sold. Some of our members have attempted to inform the sellers of their mistakes, believing perhaps that these were made in error. When such mistakes were repeated by those individuals or sites, one could reasonably conclude that the recipient was incompetent, didn't care, or there was a willful intent to deceive and defraud the purchaser. But it's not up to us to label people as dishonest or the sellers of fakes. A reasonable reader should be able to infer that from a simple statement of the facts. We are not here to malign the miscreants but to inform potential victims about the pitfalls.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2018, 05:49 AM   #14
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,461
Lightbulb On sites and sellers

On the subject of sites and sellers.

If a site functions as a place for auctions then it needs to have a code of ethical standards for its participants, and it should ensure all transactions comply with legal requirements. There is a fine line, however, between being incompetent and being fraudulent. It is not illegal to be ignorant or incompetent and end up selling something that is not actually what you said it was--a so-called "honest mistake." It is illegal to knowingly misrepresent an item for sale and thereby commit fraud.

Sites like Catawiki and eBay don't want to make this call. It's bad for business if you ban sellers for perceived fraud, especially if those people sue you and you can't prove it! So the hosting sites let a lot of things slide through. They just don't want to get into what the seller's intentions may have been.

Despite folks writing to sellers and sites, you can see why nothing much changes. That's why this forum can be useful -- as a source of reliable information regarding some of the more egregious misrepresentations that are out there.

Caveat emptor!!!
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:15 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.