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Old 19th February 2018, 11:47 AM   #1
Roland_M
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Default Unknown short sword, old Moorish sword?

Hello,

around two years ago I won this heavily corroded short sword.

It's exactly like the old boys liked it, thin, wide and heavy. Without the Tang it is ~55 cm long.

The cutting edge looks gruesome, this sword saw truly brutal action.

I'm sure this blade was part of a European collection, because the latin number "1748" is stamped on the blade.

Any ideas what it is? Is it a moorish blade from spain or a naval sword?

I hope, someone know what I have. At least it seems to be pretty rare, because I cannot find another example.


Best wishes,
Roland
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:48 PM   #2
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Hello Roland,

To me, it looks more like a Chinese Pudao.
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Old 19th February 2018, 04:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Roland,

To me, it looks more like a Chinese Pudao.


Hi Marius,

thank you for your thoughts.

Polearm was also my first guess but than I saw these symbols and the number, I became indecisive.

I think the tang is too weak for a polearm, maybe it was shortened.

The blade under the yelman-like area is 2.5 mm thin, relatively thin for a polearm.

What I can say definitely is that there are very deep notches. It almost seems, a little bit of steel from an oponents weapon is cold welded in the notch.


Best,
Roland
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:36 PM   #4
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Hiya, any signs that the tang was peened over, or was it a stick tang and just inserted into the grip/shaft.
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Old 19th February 2018, 08:35 PM   #5
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Though I cannot find an exact match, this blade reminds me of some of the ones used on machetes made by Robert Mole & Sons.

Best,
Robert
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Old 19th February 2018, 09:26 PM   #6
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Hi Roland,

Interesting old "warrior." The thickness (thinness) of this blade does remind me of a machete, as Robert suggested. The "1748" mark could be a model no.

Ian.
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Old 19th February 2018, 10:04 PM   #7
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Hi Roland,

It looks like a Chinese sword, but because of the shape and the moon stamp.

For me it's a falchion, 15th c.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...00&page=1&pp=30

You should post it on the European forum.

Kubur
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Old 20th February 2018, 07:50 AM   #8
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I keep seeing that number as a date,
1748!
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:10 AM   #9
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reminds me of this one discussed earlier:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...86&postcount=55
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
Hiya, any signs that the tang was peened over, or was it a stick tang and just inserted into the grip/shaft.


The tang seems slightly shortened or broken. I cannot see whether it is the original shape of the tang or not, there is too much rust. The tang is slightly bended, all beyond this is pure speculation. The size of the tang fits to European weapons.

Roland
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
I keep seeing that number as a date,
1748!



That makes sense. Normally such dates are more artistic made, never just stamped in the middle of the surface with simple marking stamp. In my opinion the number is a kind of inventory number of an old weapon collection. Just a guess.

Roland
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Hi Roland,

Interesting old "warrior." The thickness (thinness) of this blade does remind me of a machete, as Robert suggested. The "1748" mark could be a model no.

Ian.



Yes, this beast works like a machete and as I said/showed, the cutting edge looks awful.

Model number is one possibility but 1748 was the time of Friedrich II. from Prussia and the edged weapons of that period were different as edged weapons has been displaced by muskets and only survived as secondary weapons (except from cavalry).

I think the symbols and number are added later.
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Roland,

It looks like a Chinese sword, but because of the shape and the moon stamp.

For me it's a falchion, 15th c.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...00&page=1&pp=30

You should post it on the European forum.

Kubur


Yes, Falchion or Malchus looks similar but European weapons are normally flexible. This blade is not flexible at all.
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
reminds me of this one discussed earlier:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...86&postcount=55



Thank you for this link, this beauty comes pretty close to my one but survived in much better condition.

I have read, that there has been two versions of the falchion, a European and a Oriental version but without further explanation. The variant with the s-shaped guard seems to be the Oriental Version or Oriental inspired version.
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Old 20th February 2018, 06:02 PM   #15
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Hello Roland,

The workmanship doesn't strike me as Chinese nor SE Asia.


Quote:
I think the symbols and number are added later.

The number is done very differently than the moon and "stars" - the latter might be old/genuine and point to Europe, indeed.

The number doesn't strike me as anything sensible to do to a working blade (with the outer margin of the first number coming close to the [hardened?] edge); thus, I'd go for a later addition (and musea as well as collectors are known to have done dumb things to their pieces)!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 20th February 2018, 06:41 PM   #16
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The sword looks like you would imagine a moor pirate sword to look like. The man-in-the-moon suggests that itís not Islamic but European. The number 1748 looks like it was stamped into the sword rather than engraved. Could it be to commemorate the year in which this weapon was captured by its owner? There seem to have been a number of British-Spanish engagements in that year and it seems to have been when the Austrian War of Succession ended.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:48 PM   #17
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The 1748 is a stamping and is the same or similar to German stamps from the late 1800's found on their firearms etc.
The moon appears to be a later but older addition with its outline unbroken seeming to miss any deep corrosion.
This blade also looks very much like a machete to me.
Many older blades have an iron tang with steel blade but I don't see and forged welding where the two would meet.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Roland,

The number is done very differently than the moon and "stars" - the latter might be old/genuine and point to Europe, indeed.

The number doesn't strike me as anything sensible to do to a working blade (with the outer margin of the first number coming close to the [hardened?] edge); thus, I'd go for a later addition (and musea as well as collectors are known to have done dumb things to their pieces)!

Regards,
Kai


I think as you, the number and symbols were added later to add mor importance to the blade. The number is clearly stamped in. Earlier collectors has been pretty ruthless in this point. Many old blades got collection stamps like this one, sometimes even above decorations.

Best,
Roland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
The sword looks like you would imagine a moor pirate sword to look like. The man-in-the-moon suggests that itís not Islamic but European. The number 1748 looks like it was stamped into the sword rather than engraved. Could it be to commemorate the year in which this weapon was captured by its owner? There seem to have been a number of British-Spanish engagements in that year and it seems to have been when the Austrian War of Succession ended.


Yes the number is 100% stamped in the surfce, which is a clear indicator, that the number was added later. I think like you, it is a special date or simply the date, when it was aquired.

Roland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will M
The 1748 is a stamping and is the same or similar to German stamps from the late 1800's found on their firearms etc.
The moon appears to be a later but older addition with its outline unbroken seeming to miss any deep corrosion.
This blade also looks very much like a machete to me.
Many older blades have an iron tang with steel blade but I don't see and forged welding where the two would meet.


Yes, the style of the stamped numbers is typical for the 18th ct. The blade is short but heavy and it feels like the modern French Foreign Legion machete-sword, which is an enourmous large and heavy machete. Unfortunately there is no picture of the French machete in the Internet. I own two of them for training escrima techniques. If someone wish to see a picture of one of the last swords in use, please ask me.
Tang and blade seems to be made of one kind of steel, no scarf welded techniques. In the next days I will make a test with my salt to bring out the pattern, which hopefully gives more certainty.

I tend to believe as it was said in the comments, it seems to be a European Falchion/Malchus.



Roland
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Old 25th February 2018, 11:04 AM   #19
fernando
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Any more ideas, Gentlemen ?
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Old 26th February 2018, 10:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Any more ideas, Gentlemen ?


Hello Fernando,

the blade seems to be in the right forum now.

To get more safety I'm going to check the blade with etchant.

If the result is good enough I will show the pattern. I would expect sheer steel on a late Medieval European blade.


Roland
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Old 26th February 2018, 11:03 AM   #21
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Old 26th February 2018, 02:45 PM   #22
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One other possibility...Numbers of this type were not always dates, commemarative or 'rack/unit' numbers, but symbolic/magical in a sense, I can't remember the word! ( ), nuministic?? Something like that. Seen on early Dutch swords, etc. It would go along with the crescent moon symbol as well-
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