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Old 26th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #1
Paul B.
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Default kris identification needed

Hello!

Hope everybody had a wonderful X-mas and we running fast towards the end of this year! So herewith all the best to you and your beloved.

My question is simple and straight. What do I have here: an East-Java sheath or rather West-Java because of the double lip which is seen in Pesisiran area krisses.
The blade is not the proper one and doesn't fit well at all so refrain from showing it. It probably distracts.
Anyone having a clue?
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Old 26th December 2017, 08:33 PM   #2
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nice!! i think Central-East
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Old 26th December 2017, 09:34 PM   #3
kai
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Hello Paul,

Quote:
What do I have here: an East-Java sheath or rather West-Java because of the double lip which is seen in Pesisiran area krisses.

No definite answer from me either; however, I'd lean towards a more western attribution: Banten, Cirebon, maybe even Tegal, too...

Please post a view from directly above - the third dimension of this scabbard may help to narrow things down!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 26th December 2017, 09:37 PM   #4
A. G. Maisey
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What is the overall length of this scabbard?

There is a type of gayaman wrongko which is attributed to Tegal that has each end of the gambar dipping down, instead of flat or up.

A gandar that has its top section with kruwingan and its bottom section with no kruwingan and no ada-ada is common in Bali keris.

In chapter 6, figure 68 Jensen names a similar wrongko to this one under discussion as "gayaman Solo type", which it is not, some characteristics of Jensen's "Solo type" are Madura or North East Jawa.

I do not know where this wrongko under discussion might come from, but it does possess individual features that can be aligned with:- Tegal, Madura, Bali, North East Jawa.

Take your pick

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 26th December 2017 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:50 AM   #5
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
There is a type of gayaman wrongko which is attributed to Tegal that has each end of the gambar dipping down, instead of flat or up.

Do you know of any examples of this type which exhibit the "double lip" Paul pointed to?

This "double lip" seems to be a feature restricted to the other North coast scabbard type AFAIK. It is an even more common (though by no means universal) feature of early collected (Kunstkammer) scabbards and, thus, very likely to have very old roots.


Quote:
A gandar that has its top section with kruwingan and its bottom section with no kruwingan and no ada-ada is common in Bali keris.

There are also quite some traditional scabbards attributed to Cirebon which display this feature. I wonder whether this may also have old roots popping up in different extant cultural contexts (and, thus, making it difficult to use it to narrow down the origin of Paul's variant scabbard)?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:34 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
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Kai, I cannot recall ever having seen this "double lip" as in Paul's scabbard.

Bargello, Dresden State Museum holdings, Copenhagen (including the Royal Kunstkammer), Oriental in Venice, Mangkunegaraan, Radya Pustaka, Surakarta Karaton, the old Musium Pusat in Jakarta --- I've come up empty. Then I can add the uncountable number of keris and keris dress that I've seen, handled, or owned over my lifetime. Empty.

Might have seen it, but cannot recall having done so.

Can you point me at some other examples of this style?

Cirebon and North Coast gandar sometimes have kruwingan, but usually with an ada-ada in the bottom half.

Unusual features can occur in any artifact that has not been produced in a controlled environment. Where the wearer of a keris has freedom of expression, unseen variations can occur. Any area that is under the control of a kraton will be restricted by the relevant karaton styles and mores. Where freedom of expression exists both craftsmen and their clients can come up with all sorts of previously unseen variations and interpretations.

Actually, I seem to recall that Jensen shows a similar scabbard to Paul's that he calls a Solo style, but its is not, it is Madura/East Jawa, and that has a ridge on the face, not dissimilar to Paul's. I'd look it up if I could, but my copy of Kris Disk won't run properly.
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Old 27th December 2017, 05:14 AM   #7
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Thanks gentlemen and I will add a few more pics later.

@ Alan: is this the Solo Gayaman from Jensen? I checked the disk and only came across this fig. 68 and it might have a double hanging down lip but the pic is to vague to be sure.
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Old 27th December 2017, 05:19 AM   #8
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Sizes: 12,5 cm wide / 41 cm tall.
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Old 27th December 2017, 07:00 AM   #9
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Thanks Paul, yes, that's the Jensen one I had in mind.

The blade is Segaluh, but in my mind I had this complete keris as Madura East Jawa, but with the Segaluh blade? Maybe not. Been a long while since I've seen the pic. Tell me, is that the full pic? No pendok? I thought I remembered a Madura pendok. Maybe this thing is a montage. One thing is certain, not Solo.

The length would seem to rule out anything associated with Bali on your keris.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:54 PM   #10
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
I cannot recall ever having seen this "double lip" as in Paul's scabbard.

I'm attaching a pic of Kai Wee's keris exhibiting an IMHO related feature: The contour running up at the left side of the scabbard (i. e. the shorter end when the outside is on display) fully continues as an engraved line towards the left tip resulting in two "lips" rather than just a single upper rim as in most keris scabbards.

This feature is also seen in Wien #91.919 and probably Skokloster #6959/7042; some of the Kunstkammer scabbards exhibit an essentially identical line running towards the tip (some have chipped tips a few may not reach the tip though):
Sendai
Dresden #2897
Dresden #2896

And a stone sculpture referred to the 15th/16th century also shows the "double lip" feature (Museum Nasional Jakarta 310d) very clearly! (Cp. Weihrauch 2001, Fig. 18.)


Quote:
Cirebon and North Coast gandar sometimes have kruwingan, but usually with an ada-ada in the bottom half.

True, these tend to have an ada-ada to continue towards the tip. However, some seem to have this ridge tethering out and also the Kunstkammer keris scabbards seem to exhibit quite a bit of variability...


Quote:
I'd look it up if I could, but my copy of Kris Disk won't run properly.

That sucks. Try to clean it (polishing away scratches may be a resort) and load a copy of the PDFs on your computer (and digital back-up)...

If your CD is dead, a fellow collector may be able to assist, too.

Regards,
Kai
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:03 PM   #11
Paul B.
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The pic from the disk added as a printscreen. The pendok (pimped?) has a strong Madurese vibe.
Again a poor pic.
BTW> My disk got stuck also, I bought a new one and saved the content as PDF files and I can search trhu it much quicker and it won't fail anymore!
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:15 PM   #12
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Here are some more pics.

Remarks:
Why rule out Bali? The size of another typical Bali kris fits within the paramters?
Besides the elevation seen on the gandar (not perfectly straight) is a feature that speaks for it so is the somewhat similar mata ideng.
A blade with a max of 38 cm would fit in.
The slot opening shows a wide opening. Sizes: 8,5 x 1,3 cm.
It still puzzles me...

Last pic shows a Banten kris with double lip too. Not sure if that is the right path we should search.
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Old 27th December 2017, 07:20 PM   #13
A. G. Maisey
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Kai:- thanks for your clarification, I understand what you mean now.

Yes, the ladrangs do have what you are calling a "double lip", but I have not seen anything similar to Paul's gayam. I'm afraid I am unable to transfer characteristics from one wrongko form to another wrongko form, to do so would be to disallow what I have been taught.

However, what you are doing is probably quite valid, after all, Cirebon is not a part of the "Land of Jawa", and once you move from Javanese core values the way of appraisal that I have been taught is not really applicable.

Paul:- yes, that was the picture in my mind.

I only mentioned Bali because I was thinking in terms of far east or north east Jawa, where there is a lot of Bali influence, yes, there are shorter Bali keris, but I've never seen anything like this associated with Bali. If your wrongko had been longer I might have continued to entertain the idea of Bali, but now I understand what you and Kai regard as the double lip, I'm inclined to accept the idea of Sunda influence.

Yes, I understand that there are ways around the Jensen problem, I did have it on my external hard drive for my old computer, but the HD packed up years ago. I seldom find a need for Jensen, my interests do not coincide with the way in which Jensen treats the keris, he looks at it from a perspective that ceased to interest me much a long time ago. But it used to be useful from time to time to help me understand what some other people were talking about. I'll probably borrow a copy from a friend and put it into my computer.
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Old 28th December 2017, 11:01 PM   #14
kai
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
Yes, the ladrangs do have what you are calling a "double lip", but I have not seen anything similar to Paul's gayam.

Yes, Paul's certainly is very unusual. (And he came up with that description - not claiming any authorship here... )


Quote:
I'm afraid I am unable to transfer characteristics from one wrongko form to another wrongko form, to do so would be to disallow what I have been taught.

I'm aware of their different functions but did not realize that they represent completely different cultural environments or encompass unrelated sets of motifs/social meanings? Could you possibly explain the traditional Jawa POV, maybe in a separate thread? Thanks heaps in advance!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 29th December 2017, 02:42 AM   #15
A. G. Maisey
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Its a pretty simple concept Kai, and certainly not worth a separate thread, in fact, I'd put money on it that anybody who has got just the absolute minimal knowledge of the Javanese keris and Javanese thought processes would be able to guess the way it works.

Think about this:- unless a keris blade is in complete compliance with the relevant pakem it is "di luar pakem" = "out of the parameters" (broadly). Nothing to stop someone from making a keris that combines features in a previously unknown style, but just don't think that you can call it a keris in kraton circles.

So, if you're following the style of a particular kraton, you must follow it exactly, you cannot mix and match the various characteristics of various things and create something new --- not unless ordered to by your lord. An ordinary person simply does not have the authority to vary an established form.

However, when you move away from kraton influence, which means putting distance between yourself and the nearest place where kraton influence may apply, once you get away from the kraton style there is a lot more freedom of individual expression.

Most people attached to a kraton hierarchy, even today, will have more than one set of dress for one or more of their krisses, the type and style of dress should be in accordance with the occasion upon which it would be worn.

The above applies to Central Jawa, Surakarta/Jogjakarta. I cannot speak for other places.

So, in respect of the ?north coast? wrongko under discussion, if I look at Paul's example, in my head I try to match it with other wrongkos of broadly the same style, I do not go looking for vaguely similar features in a totally different style of wrongko : one is gayam, one is ladrang, so I put ladrang completely out of my head.
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