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Old 25th November 2017, 01:26 PM   #1
Athanase
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Default Cirebon hilt?

Hello,

Here is the grip of my new Kriss.
The sheath is very much worn (it is broken and half of the wrangka is missing) but it looks like Cirebon's style.
I think the handle comes from the north of Java but I'm not sure because I've never seen a similar one.
What do you think?
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Old 25th November 2017, 05:51 PM   #2
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Yes, it looks a rare and old specimen of raksasa hilt from Northern Java, congratulations!
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Old 25th November 2017, 10:24 PM   #3
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Ok thank-you.
It's very good news, I'm very happy because I bought it at a very moderate price from blurred photo. It was a winning bet.
Here is an overview of the kriss. The blade presents 2 different pamors :
- the one in "triangle" which is very visible at the base,
- and another almost invisible on the blade and which seems to be of the type Uler Lulut ?? or Segara Wedi ??
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Old 26th November 2017, 04:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Yes, it looks a rare and old specimen of raksasa hilt from Northern Java, congratulations!

Hi Jean. I'm wondering what about this hilt makes you specifically identify it as a raksasa?
Definitely a lovely, old and unusual hilt. I would agree that it looks Northern Jawa. And i just love the face on this guy!
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:14 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Hi Jean. I'm wondering what about this hilt makes you specifically identify it as a raksasa?
Definitely a lovely, old and unusual hilt. I would agree that it looks Northern Jawa. And i just love the face on this guy!


Hi David,
I used the generic term raksasa to mean a forest demon covered with vegetation, this hilt is similar to the buta bajang style (squatting ancestor with bulged eyes) but with a different face, hairdress, and decoration which makes it peculiar. It is also different from the raksasa style hilts with crossed arms (see pic).
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:28 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athanase
Ok thank-you.
It's very good news, I'm very happy because I bought it at a very moderate price from blurred photo. It was a winning bet.
Here is an overview of the kriss. The blade presents 2 different pamors :
- the one in "triangle" which is very visible at the base,
- and another almost invisible on the blade and which seems to be of the type Uler Lulut ?? or Segara Wedi ??


Hi Anastase,
The blade is original and old, and typical of the Northern/ West Java area with its 9 very shallow waves but the pamor pattern looks too indistinct on the pic (too much light reflection) for being able to confirm your identification.
Regards

Last edited by Jean : 27th November 2017 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:44 AM   #7
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another Cirebon hilt
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:51 AM   #8
A. G. Maisey
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In Javanese/Balinese art motifs, a figure with fangs is identifiable as demon.

Raksasa is a male ogre, raksasi is a female ogre, an ogre is actually a monster that eats human flesh.

Thus when we call these types of hilts "raksasa" we're being pretty general, its pretty loose terminology.Maybe a bit more "Collectorese".

If we look at origins and turn to Hindu beliefs, what we find is that rakshasas & rakshasis are shape shifters, and not all of them are necessarily bad guys.

If we were going to get really pedantic we probably should only use the term "raksasa" for demons that haunt cemeteries and eat human flesh.

Anyway, Athanase's hilt has got fangs, thus it is a demon. Raksasa is probably OK. If we don't call him a raksasa, what do we call him?

Squatting ancestor with fangs Jean? Interesting idea.

Ancestors eventually become one with their deities, and often are depicted in pit burial mode. But with fangs?

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

I think we've visited this previously.
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:59 AM   #9
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another Cirebon
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
In Javanese/Balinese art motifs, a figure with fangs is identifiable as demon.

Raksasa is a male ogre, raksasi is a female ogre, an ogre is actually a monster that eats human flesh.

Thus when we call these types of hilts "raksasa" we're being pretty general, its pretty loose terminology.Maybe a bit more "Collectorese".

If we look at origins and turn to Hindu beliefs, what we find is that rakshasas & rakshasis are shape shifters, and not all of them are necessarily bad guys.

If we were going to get really pedantic we probably should only use the term "raksasa" for demons that haunt cemeteries and eat human flesh.

Anyway, Athanase's hilt has got fangs, thus it is a demon. Raksasa is probably OK. If we don't call him a raksasa, what do we call him?

Squatting ancestor with fangs Jean? Interesting idea.

Ancestors eventually become one with their deities, and often are depicted in pit burial mode. But with fangs?

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

I think we've visited this previously.


Thank you Alan, and demon is indeed a better generic term than raksasa or ancestor. Do you know what "buta bajang" (the local name for these squatting demon hilts) mean?
I attach the pic of an old raksasa hilt (holding a human arm in his left hand).
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:44 AM   #11
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Hello Marco,

Very nice hilt, especially the piece from #7! This one appears to be considerably older than the other examples in this thread - maybe you could add close-ups from the other sides here or in a separate thread, please?


Quote:
another Cirebon hilt

What makes you narrow down their origin to Cirebon? (Vs. Banten or any other other cultural centers in the sphere of Sunda influence? Or other busy trading ports along the coast of northern Java, that is?)

And, yes, I'm still hoping on Christmas for finally reading your book...

Regards,
Kai
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:48 AM   #12
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Very nice hilt, especially the piece from #7! This one appears to be considerably older than the other examples in this thread

Did not saw it posted when writing my comment: Jean's example also seems to be very old...

Regards,
Kai
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Old 26th November 2017, 12:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Marco,

Very nice hilt, especially the piece from #7! This one appears to be considerably older than the other examples in this thread - maybe you could add close-ups from the other sides here or in a separate thread, please?



What makes you narrow down their origin to Cirebon? (Vs. Banten or any other other cultural centers in the sphere of Sunda influence? Or other busy trading ports along the coast of northern Java, that is?)

And, yes, I'm still hoping on Christmas for finally reading your book...

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai.The hilt was on the pesi of an an old blade with a Cirebon sheath and the Yogya seller had only very old keris all from Cirebon area.
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Old 26th November 2017, 01:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
In Javanese/Balinese art motifs, a figure with fangs is identifiable as demon.

Raksasa is a male ogre, raksasi is a female ogre, an ogre is actually a monster that eats human flesh.

Thus when we call these types of hilts "raksasa" we're being pretty general, its pretty loose terminology.Maybe a bit more "Collectorese".

If we look at origins and turn to Hindu beliefs, what we find is that rakshasas & rakshasis are shape shifters, and not all of them are necessarily bad guys.

If we were going to get really pedantic we probably should only use the term "raksasa" for demons that haunt cemeteries and eat human flesh.

Anyway, Athanase's hilt has got fangs, thus it is a demon. Raksasa is probably OK. If we don't call him a raksasa, what do we call him?

Squatting ancestor with fangs Jean? Interesting idea.

Ancestors eventually become one with their deities, and often are depicted in pit burial mode. But with fangs?

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

I think we've visited this previously.

Well Alan, you bring up exactly why i asked the question of Jean to begin with. When figures begin to attract i suppose there is always room for interpretation. Fangs? I'm not convinced i am seeing fangs on Athanase's figure. Yes there are what appear to be a couple of curved shapes near the corners of the mouth, but i'm really just not sure. Are they intended to be fangs? Maybe, maybe not. If i saw better photos or had it in hand perhaps i would see it differently.
And then there is the head dress. I just don't think i have ever seen a raksasa (or what we collectors generally consider raksasa) with such an elaborate head dress or crown. It's usually just long hair.
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Old 26th November 2017, 03:10 PM   #15
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Default Clues?

A couple of observations about the original hilt:

The little finger of the right hand seems disproportionately long with a wicked looking hooked nail.

What could be the semi spherical object be that is cradled in the right arm; the head of a child?
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Old 26th November 2017, 04:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
What could be the semi spherical object be that is cradled in the right arm; the head of a child?


For me it's his knee.
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Old 26th November 2017, 04:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
A couple of observations about the original hilt:


What could be the semi spherical object be that is cradled in the right arm; the head of a child?


Hi Rick,
It seems to be his knee but it is not very clear as the foot is not shown
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Old 26th November 2017, 05:44 PM   #18
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Hello Rick and David,

That's definitely his knee: The traditional position of the right hand is the shin close to the knee (sometimes it pretty much covers the knee, too); the lower leg is visible (with only the feet hidden among the foliage). [The left hands usually rests on top of the left knee though.]

The pinky of the right hand always shows an extension which should be the long finger nail (these tend to curl towards the tip when growing longer; in this carving it's more pronounced than usual). [On the left hand, the thumb usually shows what seems to be an extended finger nail...]

Those are definitely fangs if you compare them with less stylized examples; even in this more stylized representation the animal-like, flared lips are clearly visible around the fangs (indicated by the traditional "striped" area).

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Kai
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Old 26th November 2017, 05:55 PM   #19
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Hello Marco,

Quote:
The hilt was on the pesi of an an old blade with a Cirebon sheath and the Yogya seller had only very old keris all from Cirebon area.

Was he of Cirebonese ancestry? It's rare to have such info on provenance available, indeed!

Still, these hilt types may not be limited to Cirebon since there are also a bunch of keris from old European collections that combine such hilts with scabbards attributed to other sultanates along the Javanese North coast.

Regards,
Kai
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:06 PM   #20
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Jean, in Javanese, "bajang" means "stunted", you mostly hear it in reference to a child:- "bocah bajang", a child who is either small for his age, or who has not yet had his hair cut.

So, if we say "buta bajang" we are actually saying "stunted ogre", ie , a little ogre, which of course this style of hilt is, since it is only of handle size.

David, in Javanese art, and I guess in the art of all the Archipelago, there are certain formal representations of many things that need to be learned, in order to understand what is being represented. I do not know all the formal stylizations for all places within the Archipelago, but I'm not too bad on Javanese and Balinese ones. This hilt under discussion here has fangs.

Yes, I agree, there is some room for interpretation when it comes to understanding iconography, symbolism, and motif, but these things are really a part of the language of an art form, or belief system, or society, or culture, and that language needs to be understood first, before we can interpret. It is just like our normal spoken language:- in English a word can mean one thing, in another language the same word might mean something entirely different.

As to our little ogre's hair, well, it seems to be streaming down from under some sort of head covering, I don't know what. Maybe the carver had a particular personality in mind? Or maybe he just thought a hat would be useful on cold days.

In respect of specific point of origin of these little ogre hilts, I find it very difficult, if not impossible to nail the overall form down to one particular location. Personally, I'm pretty content to have them just about anywhere along the North Coast, into Madura, and up into the highlands of East Jawa.

Just an afterthought here.

There is one case of which I know, where fangs may not be able to be interpreted as fangs, but rather as tusks.

One of Wisnu's (Vishnu's) manifestations is as Varaha (or Baraha) the wild boar. In representations of Varaha he can be shown completely as a wild boar, or as an anthropomorphic form, with the head of a boar --- complete with tusks --- and the body of a man.

Varaha can be depicted with one or more of Wisnu's attributes, and sometimes with a crown.

I have seen Balinese hilts, and other Balinese figures that might be able to be interpreted as Varaha, but I have never seen a Javanese hilt that could comfortably be interpreted in this way.

Still, anything is possible. The Hindu faith, or rather the Javanese-Hindu Faith, is still alive in isolated pockets in Jawa.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 26th November 2017 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 27th November 2017, 12:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
As to our little ogre's hair, well, it seems to be streaming down from under some sort of head covering, I don't know what. Maybe the carver had a particular personality in mind? Or maybe he just thought a hat would be useful on cold days.

I find it odd that you can assign such import to what you perceive as fangs yet completely dismiss any relevance to such an elaborate head dress. Can't say i have ever seen such a head dress on a Javanese raksasa. I find to hard to believe that it has no significance for this figure. But i suppose sometimes a hat is just a hat.
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Old 27th November 2017, 08:21 PM   #22
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David, the way that we are able to understand anything at all depends upon the things that we have already learnt. Sometimes the things we have learnt provide a direct point of reference that permits us to understand something with a high degree of certainty, at other times the things we have learnt permit us to apply a rational or logical approach to understand by way of reason.

Now, in respect of this hilt figure I have only limited information with which to work, this is because I have never seen a similar figural representation. I do not know who, or what the figure represents, and I do not have sufficient points of reference to permit a rational guess, that is to say a guess that I can defend with logic.

I can see a few things that I do not have any problem with, for instance, I think it is reasonable to assume that we are looking at a Javanese carving; that Javanese carving is figural, and stylistically it conforms with similar Javanese hilt figures that stretch over several hundred years. But I cannot place it within any particular period, nor can I place it at any particular geographic point of origin.

I can see a detail at the corners of the mouth of this figure, that based upon Javanese artistic convention may be interpreted as fangs, or perhaps tusks. The more probable interpretation is fangs, but still, perhaps we are looking at tusks. If tusks, then we need to consider Varaha, but here we have a problem that we cannot really address in a rational way unless we can place a time and place of origin on this little figure. So, on the weight of available evidence, it is probably safer to identify those corner-of-the-mouth details as fangs. If they are fangs, we have a demon, or ogre, or raksasa, or rashasa, or buta, or some other probably rather nasty little piece of work.

Now, the thing that we can see on the figure's head. Exactly what is this thing? Frankly, I do not know. Often in Javanese figural carvings the head-gear of a figure will assist in identification of the figure, and that in turn will assist in dating. This is one of the ways in which we can place approximate dates on the figures that form the hilts of keris sajen. Similarly, in the identification of Balinese hilt figures, the crown or head covering of a figure can assist in identification. But the catch 22 is that we need to ID the head covering, and maybe to ID the head covering we need to ID the figure first.

So, this little figure's head covering:- what is it?

Well, it looks to me as if we can see the hair on top of his head, so perhaps this head thing is not a covering, but rather something like a European crown. Not a Javanese crown, but a European one. Javanese crowns? Well, there was the story of the Golden Crown of Majapahit. Did the carver of this hilt know what a Javanese crown looked like?

Varaha, manifestation of Wisnu. What do we know about Varaha? Well, he saved Bhumi Dewi, the Earth Goddess when the evil Hiranyaksha stole her and hid her. Bhumi Dewi is a consort of Vishnu in his Varaha manifestation. Bhumi Dewi is associated with Lakshmi, Dewi Sri is also associated with Lakshmi, but Dewi Sri pre-dates Hindu influence in Jawa. Lakshmi is associated with wealth and prosperity, Dewi Sri is associated with fertility and the product of the soil, she is the Goddess of the rice, rice grows from the Earth, Mother Earth, Bhumi Dewi, no Mother Earth, no Dewi Sri, no Lakshmi, no prosperity, no wealth, no rice.

So now we can see that Varaha is really a pretty important character, because he saved Bhumi Dewi and restored her to her place, by lifting her on his tusks.
Varaha is often represented in mainstream Hindu art motifs wearing a crown.
Just maybe, if we put a figure of Varaha onto our keris, we will prevent its theft by evil doers.

The above is an example of how guessing at an unknown identity can become utterly rabid.

What I have written above can all be supported, it all links together, but in the context of this figure, it is pure nonsense.

The carver knew what he was carving. I do not. And I do not intend to guess. I can only identify what I can see and understand. What I can see and understand is that this figure is probably Javanese and it has fangs or tusks.

I simply do not know enough to permit me to identify any more than this, nor to hazard guesses at things I do not understand.
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Old 28th November 2017, 02:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
....I simply do not know enough to permit me to identify any more than this, nor to hazard guesses at things I do not understand.

Thanks you Alan. Please note that i never asked you to identify this figure. All i have done is question if the figure should rightfully be called a raksasa. Everything you have just written seems to me to support the validity of my questioning.
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Old 28th November 2017, 03:06 AM   #24
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David, if we are to place a name on anything, anything at all, we engage in a process of identification.

I have indicated that I cannot identify the figure in question, and nobody else seems to be able to identify it either, but in general terms it does seem to fit the broad parameters of what many collectors would call a raksasa --- or whatever --- hilt.

Personally, I'm a bit hesitant in using the R word, I suppose if we're speaking Collectorise its OK to call everything that looks a bit demonic a raksasa, but for something like this hilt, I'd probably opt for "figural". If we don't really know what something is it is possibly more polite to retreat into our own language and use descriptive terms rather than inaccurate or garbled terms.
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Old 28th November 2017, 03:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
David, if we are to place a name on anything, anything at all, we engage in a process of identification.

I have indicated that I cannot identify the figure in question, and nobody else seems to be able to identify it either, but in general terms it does seem to fit the broad parameters of what many collectors would call a raksasa --- or whatever --- hilt.

Personally, I'm a bit hesitant in using the R word, I suppose if we're speaking Collectorise its OK to call everything that looks a bit demonic a raksasa, but for something like this hilt, I'd probably opt for "figural". If we don't really know what something is it is possibly more polite to retreat into our own language and use descriptive terms rather than inaccurate or garbled terms.

I believe we are in complete agreement here.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:19 AM   #26
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Just for reference I attach the pics of 3 old Javanese figural hilts with a less elaborate headdress and a standard curly hair style.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:41 AM   #27
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I think the people I know would probably give that style as minat jenggul Jean.
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Old 28th November 2017, 01:15 PM   #28
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I think the people I know would probably give that style as minat jenggul Jean.


Thank you Alan, I never heard this name, what does it mean?
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Old 28th November 2017, 05:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

This is indeed an interesting question and perhaps one we can only speculate about. At the risk of making a cross-cultural faux pas, as clearly the diffferences between Eastern and Western thought are vast, we might compare concepts of demonology in such renaissance era writings at the Key of Solomon and the Lesser Key of Solomon (which make claims, however spurious, of dating back to the biblical king himself). These books deal with sigils and signs used to call various demons and put them under human command to to the bidding of the conjurer. Yes, perhaps a dangerous and reckless endeavor. But perhaps the idea is somewhat similar, that these Javanese demons, raksasa and otherwise, can but controlled symbolically in these represented forms to protect and serve their human masters. Maybe an off-base idea, but an notion none the less.
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Old 28th November 2017, 07:50 PM   #30
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Jean, Minat Jenggul is something you hear linked to the wayang. As a direct translation it can be understood as "appropriate/suitable/right/correct - leader/ top man/boss), but I am uncertain exactly how it is used in the wayang. I find wayang pretty boring, probably because I cannot follow the language real well, the dalangs mix up archaic language with modern Javanese at all levels or even BI and break off in the middle of stories to make jokes and comments about current affairs. For me, the whole thing gets very confusing.
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