Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th September 2017, 10:52 PM   #1
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,728
Default Massive Flask for comment

Just received this monster and would like some comment please.
It looks to be Moroccan and I suspect that it is designed for carrying bulk quantities of powder.
The stopper has a hollow base which could well be used for measured amounts of powder. The chain was not attached when I received the flask but it is no doubt the original one, and is now in place.
Top to bottom it measures approx. 14 1/2" (37cm) and the diam. of the body is approx. 9"(23cm)
All suggestions/comments welcome.
Stu
Attached Images
     
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2017, 08:01 AM   #2
thinreadline
Member
 
thinreadline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wirral
Posts: 1,204
Default

how fantastic !
thinreadline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2017, 12:31 PM   #3
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Nice one, somebody needed a lot of powder, it reminds me of images of Ottoman zeibek with huge powder flasks. I guess it was something you would not want to run out of.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2017, 04:03 PM   #4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Possibly Ottoman ....maybe Moroccan but I would say German...
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2017, 08:24 PM   #5
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Possibly Ottoman ....maybe Moroccan but I would say German...
German???Really??? What evidence do you have for that please?
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2017, 12:03 AM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

I too was thinking Moroccan.........
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2017, 02:42 PM   #7
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,621
Default

Hi Stu.

WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan.
One of the first things I noticed was that it was made with carrying rings. At first, I thought it might be used to carry some type of liquid (wine ? LOL) But the stopper would be the wrong design for that. Liquid was carried in wood containers or leather boas. And, there appears to be no flat on the bottom of the flask to stand upright on a table or flat surface. So, Hmmmm.
I do remember reading somewhere in my reference material that the Ottomans would assign specific individuals to carry the larger containers of bulk powder to refill the other troops flasks while on campaign. In Europe and North America large, full-size steer horns were used (called storage horns) to store the powder from the wood transport barrels. Ultimately for the same purpose.
This flask, to me, looks like it was made maybe in the early 20th Century (?)
There sure is a lot of hand work in this flask. It was made to carry something, but I don't know what. LOL But again, the lack of a flat bottom and the carrying rings tells me it was designed for shoulder suspension or horse/camel carry. It's certainly attractive and would look great on display.

Stu: Is there any evidence of black powder ?

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2017, 04:29 PM   #8
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Stu.
WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan.
Rick
Yep at a first look it's Moroccan, but if you look well at the decorations, they are very Ottoman... And they were no Ottomans in Morocco... I vote for Algeria...
20th c. maybe - but before 1916...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2017, 06:57 PM   #9
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Stu.

WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan.
One of the first things I noticed was that it was made with carrying rings. At first, I thought it might be used to carry some type of liquid (wine ? LOL) But the stopper would be the wrong design for that. Liquid was carried in wood containers or leather boas. And, there appears to be no flat on the bottom of the flask to stand upright on a table or flat surface. So, Hmmmm.
I do remember reading somewhere in my reference material that the Ottomans would assign specific individuals to carry the larger containers of bulk powder to refill the other troops flasks while on campaign. In Europe and North America large, full-size steer horns were used (called storage horns) to store the powder from the wood transport barrels. Ultimately for the same purpose.
This flask, to me, looks like it was made maybe in the early 20th Century (?)
There sure is a lot of hand work in this flask. It was made to carry something, but I don't know what. LOL But again, the lack of a flat bottom and the carrying rings tells me it was designed for shoulder suspension or horse/camel carry. It's certainly attractive and would look great on display.

Stu: Is there any evidence of black powder ?

Rick
Hi Rick,
Not for liquid IMHO. As you say, liquid was usually in either wooden or leather containers.
Evidence of powder? Maybe..... as there is a lump of something loose inside the flask, of what looks to me to be powder which has got damp and gone solid. Dark grey colour, but I am not going to risk trying to break it down as friction can ignite it if indeed it IS powder. Don't see what else it could be.
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2019, 10:20 PM   #10
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,728
Default Origin is Morocco by the look of it................

Interesting how things turn up eventually.
I see in Thinreadline's latest thread re flask ID, that there is a pic/woodcut showing the guy in the middle with one of these large flasks.
At least I can now be reasonably sure that the origin is Morocco.
Stu
Attached Images
 
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:27 AM   #11
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
And they were no Ottomans in Morocco...

Not even in front of armchairs??
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2019, 08:44 AM   #12
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

I think you are right Stu, it has to be Moroccan
let's say 80% chances... Still i can see some Algerian Ottoman influences 20%...
Please see the one attached labelled Moroccan powder flask 20th c
For the one on the engraving, be careful it might be another kind, see the pic...
Attached Images
  
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2019, 10:21 AM   #13
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
I think you are right Stu, it has to be Moroccan
let's say 80% chances... Still i can see some Algerian Ottoman influences 20%...
Please see the one attached labelled Moroccan powder flask 20th c
For the one on the engraving, be careful it might be another kind, see the pic...
Certainly not the "beehive" type due to depicted size. In the pic, compare the size of the flask including the spout, to the length of the rifle stocks. No guarantee that things are "to scale" but the flask length including the spout is as long as the rifle stock from the butt to the trigger.
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2019, 10:01 PM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

I hope that instead of water or gunpowder the owner carried in it a goodly dose of Arak.


For wound sterilizing, of course:-)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2019, 07:11 AM   #15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
German???Really??? What evidence do you have for that please?


There isn't any> was that a spelling mistake and what I meant to type was Algerian?? I don't know. anyway its certainly not German! having said that here's a German round drum shaped Powder Flask not related >>>but I searched for a link anyway>>>> I have seen many like the one you illustrate from Morocco>
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2019, 10:04 AM   #16
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
There isn't any> was that a spelling mistake and what I meant to type was Algerian?? I don't know. anyway its certainly not German! having said that here's a German round drum shaped Powder Flask not related >>>but I searched for a link anyway>>>> I have seen many like the one you illustrate from Morocco>
Actually Ibrahiim you are not so wrong.

Most of the Moroccan powder flasks have been inspired by European models : Dutch and English.

I don't know if the one that you posted is German, it might be Silesian (not far).
The little cooper nails are very similiar to Ottoman / Balkans types...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2019, 10:39 AM   #17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

You are absolutely right Kubur; an excellent point well taken Sir!
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2019, 11:58 AM   #18
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't know if the one that you posted is German, it might be Silesian (not far).
.
Just for info: Silesia was since 1740 until 1945 with interruptions part of the Prussian territory. Before 1740 it was part of the Holy Roman Empire. So the flask is definitely a German one
corrado26
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2019, 11:13 AM   #19
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

The flask is without doubt Moroccan...It may have also been used in other regions like Algeria but firstly it is Islamic since it has the hand of fatima five geometry to its design centred on the central red dot and the 6 pointed star... plus in the picture above at #10 it is drawn on a Moroccan warrior holding a Moroccan gun and wearing Moroccan clothing amongst others dressed in the same way...Including a left hand man wearing a Nimcha.

But why such a huge flask for gunpowder for which you need to see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23466 t #22 which outlines the poor quality powder needing more of it to be poured into the barrel and the reason why barrels needed to be so long... to achieve a fuller burn. other magrebi flasks show the design of 5 pointer stars (there is no difference in the use of either) as below~
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2019, 11:54 AM   #20
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

A hexagram on the obverse of Moroccan 4 falus coin, dated AH 1290 (AD 1873/4).
The seal of Solomon is very common in Morocco.
Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2019, 01:07 PM   #21
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Here it is as a ring...and more star examples on flasks.
Attached Images
   
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2019, 02:41 PM   #22
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
Not even in front of armchairs??

No.
They had only sectionals. But one could choose the upholstery.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.