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Old 27th April 2017, 07:37 PM   #1
fernando
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Default One blunderbuss i would like to have ...

Pictures are horrible; i thought i had enough light, but i was wrong. This one belongs to a local fellow collector, who refuses to pass it me, arguing that he already let go a couple of them to my collection.
I am amazed with the lock adornment, the atypical stock shape, the barrel engravings. In principle a Portuguese example, the trigger guard denouncing it, for one... as also having been locally acquired.
Have you guys ever seen such lock 'mirror' ? I would be much obliged for your comments.


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Old 28th April 2017, 01:49 PM   #2
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Dear namesake

The most interesting (for me) lock, a rare mix of Museta and Mimi (as the opera says) a mixture of the classic miquelete with the "Molinhas clasp", because it has "pin" and has a false flange in the bowl, As in the classic miquelete. The half-cock chock must be on the inner curve of the side. As in the Spanish "mixed lock" the firing system is at the top, above the actual quay

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Old 28th April 2017, 01:54 PM   #3
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Old 28th April 2017, 03:09 PM   #4
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Thank you tocayo,
To avoid misunderstandings, the attribution of the "Fecho de Molinhas" name is not due to external parts of such lock system but to a specific 'playing' of its internal sears (muelles) and rods (as per attached drawing, positions #9 and #10).
The hammer type in this blunderbuss i am posting we call it here "goat's foot" (pie de cabra).

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Old 28th April 2017, 09:25 PM   #5
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Namesake

The # 9 is a double spring, which activates the catch and the trigger. The # 10 is simply a rod, which has its bearing in # 11 and that only serves to guide the trigger

Affectionately. Fernando K
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Old 28th April 2017, 10:17 PM   #6
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Namesake

The rod has a perpendicular projection, on which the trigger is supported, because the trigger of the lock is delayed in the position in the weapon, and thus it advances the position in which its action exerts its trigger of the weapon, not of the key

Affectionately. Fernando K
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Old 29th April 2017, 06:42 AM   #7
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I hope you do manage to talk the guy out of it eventually. A most interesting and unusual piece. The "goats foot" lock is particularly appealing to me. Baaaaa-aaahd!
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Old 29th April 2017, 07:20 PM   #8
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Fernando my tocayo.
I am aware that you understand these and other lock systems infinitely more than i do. I am just pondering on the reason why the original authors of this system called it "fecho de molinhas" (muellecitos, little springs), pretending to distinguish it from other mechanisms of this period.

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Old 29th April 2017, 11:38 PM   #9
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Dear namesake

My words were not to question your words, but to establish the right. Sometimes you find drawings or diagrams that have been made by people who know little of the subject, or are wrong. It happens that sometimes (for me the majority) one does not have the mechanism in the hands, and must be guided by photographs (incomplete) or by designs, especially in old weapons

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Old 30th April 2017, 11:55 AM   #10
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Tocayo mi amigo,
Absolutely no problem .
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Old 30th April 2017, 12:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... I hope you do manage to talk the guy out of it eventually...
I already sang him a song more than once ... and will keep trying. One big obstacle is that he doesn't need the money .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
A most interesting and unusual piece. The "goats foot" lock is particularly appealing to me. Baaaaa-aaahd!

Besides the goats foot, i like the atypical stock and love that frizzen spring 'shield', which must have been the pride of its original owner.
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Old 30th April 2017, 01:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
... One big obstacle is that he doesn't need the money .


i suppose marrying him to your daughter, then poisoning him before the honeymoon is not acceptable. (poisoning any existing wife might also be required) of course, would your daughter sell it to you? think out of the box and make him an offer he can't refuse. possibly non-monetary. what of yours could you trade?

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Old 30th April 2017, 04:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
... what of yours could you trade?

My right hand ... wherever it is, somewhere in South Africa. .
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Old 30th April 2017, 05:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
My right hand ... wherever it is, somewhere in South Africa. .




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Old 30th April 2017, 07:56 PM   #15
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fancy misplacing that. hope you were left handed. (guess you are now.) ah, well, everyone has a few faults. most firearms and many swords are made for right hand use, and lefties tend to get stuff sprayed in their faces like brass or gasses and unburnt powder residue. lock sparks from the blunderbuss would be stinging i guess. hopefully you can overcome that with a good prosthetic. guess it's too late to reattach the original.

(if you are serious, hope i didn't bring up any bad memories. i apologise if i have. probably an interesting story to go with it, tho maybe not for you. feel free to ignore me.)
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Old 1st May 2017, 05:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
i suppose marrying him to your daughter, then poisoning him before the honeymoon is not acceptable. (poisoning any existing wife might also be required) of course, would your daughter sell it to you? think out of the box and make him an offer he can't refuse. possibly non-monetary. what of yours could you trade?



Aha, Signor Kronckew, I see that you are a renaissance man at heart. From the Italian renaissance of course, what with all the suggestions about poisoning, offers that can't be refused, that sort of thing. Great to hear such sentiments in our day, especially from a chap who believes that dogs have/should have feathers.

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Old 1st May 2017, 06:31 AM   #17
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Default it could be an old goat indeed.

Besides the goats foot, i like the atypical stock and love that frizzen spring 'shield', which must have been the pride of its original owner.[/QUOTE]

Fernando,
I recently got my copy of Daehnhardt/Gaier ESPINGARDARIA PORTUGUESA and have been studying the examples of pé-de-cabra locks in the exhibit. The three pistols are all dated to the first quarter of the 19th cent., and the locks have features true-to-form for that era. For instance, the two in plate 11 (p 45) have French-style lockplates; the one in plate 14 (p 51) has a more conservative fecho de molinhas style plate BUT the cock's jaws are at a right angle to the stem which is a late fashion (you see it on later Spanish and Neapolitan miquelet cocks as well). NONE OF THESE LOCKS HAVE FRIZZEN-SPRING SHIELDS LIKE ON THIS BLUNDERBUSS.

The patilha lock on Dom João's hunting gun , plate 2, p 27 has a shield with ornamental curlicue extensions from its lower edge, with a repeated motif on the cock bridle as well. These curlicues are also seen on 17th cent. Spanish patilla locks (see J D Lavin. A HISTORY OF SPANISH FIREARMS, 1965, fig. 22), and survived in vestigial form on provincial locks into the following century (Lavin, plate 81). The shapes on the frizzen shield of your friend's gun appear to me as an especially flamboyant, perhaps provincial, interpretation of this aesthetic. As though a Portuguese gunsmith, familiar with Spanish prototypes, decided to dial up the degree of ornamentation and do one better!

A lot of features of the rest of the gun point to perhaps end 18th cent and later, but the style of the lock, plus the amount of wear and pitting, suggest that it is an older mechanism re-used. I agree that the stock is unusual, but the lock may exceed it in significance and age. Even more reason to try every means to pry it out of your friend's paws.

If money means nothing to him, surely in your collection there must be a piece that he will fall in love with and be willing to swap for.
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Old 1st May 2017, 09:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... Great to hear such sentiments in our day, especially from a chap who believes that dogs have/should have feathers.


Poisoning was a traditional method, especially of insuring inheritance, since imperial rome, and earlier. favoured for pesky relatives that refused to die on time. quite a few emperors, as well as their rivals, usually relatives, were poisoned. the catholic church was fond of it as well, as priests were (and are) frowned on if they shed blood.

p.s. - poppy, my saluki lurcher cross is my avatar, she has the saluki breed standard feathering on her ears, tail, legs and feet. and she CAN fly along. roughly 40 mph, tho she rarely gets too far off the ground.
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
...(if you are serious, hope i didn't bring up any bad memories. i apologise if i have ...)

Dear Waine,
If this issue caused me any affliction, i wouldn't have pulled the joke in the first place.
In fact i was fully dexter but, no problem with that; my brain got the message. Only have to avoid buying shoes with tying laces.
And... by the way, no prosthetic needed; i am not a guitar player .
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:36 PM   #20
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Thsnk you Philip,
... for pointing out those references, specially the more suggestive one showing the arabesques in Lavins lock (plate 81).
That the lock in my friend's blunderbuss is inspired in Spanish examples or even having been brought over from Spain, is of course a probability no to be discarded, by all means. After all, most blunderbusses we see around here are of regional engender, composed of varied 'rescued' parts.
Interesting that this gun wear appears to be not only due to natural age but also to intense use, judging by the frizzen face; in a way that its service was more resourced for hunting frequent shooting than in sporadic combat, a more typical purpose for these things ... i would say. Bizarre ?
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Old 1st May 2017, 10:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Poisoning was a traditional method, especially of insuring inheritance, since imperial rome, and earlier. favoured for pesky relatives that refused to die on time. quite a few emperors, as well as their rivals, usually relatives, were poisoned. the catholic church was fond of it as well, as priests were (and are) frowned on if they shed blood.

p.s. - poppy, my saluki lurcher cross is my avatar, she has the saluki breed standard feathering on her ears, tail, legs and feet. and she CAN fly along. roughly 40 mph, tho she rarely gets too far off the ground.


Clergy not shedding blood -- that's why archbishops who led troops during the early Middle Ages carried maces, not swords since they could probably get away with bonking a guy hard enough to put him out, without making him bleed. And the reason that heretics were burned at the stake during the Inquisition (in fact, in Spain and Portugal the authorities were fastidious enough to limit torture methods to the bloodless ones of waterboarding and the use of pulleys and ropes. )

Dogs -- Oh, that's the story. I had assumed that her breed was descended from dinosaurs which some paleozoologists now believe may have had feathers and proto-bird features. 40 mph is a very respectable speed nonetheless, whether or not she manages to get airborne. Is the world really ready for flying dogs, anyway? How could I handle confusing an eagle with a beagle when I've had too many drinks?
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Old 2nd May 2017, 07:55 AM   #22
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we are digressing wildly of course ...and will likely be moderated at some point.

'fly' may be a slight exaggeration. the sight-hound (and cheetah) gait is such that their feet actually leave the ground and they do not touch it again for about 5 metres*. salukis and lurchers are slightly slower than greyhounds who can get a bit over 40mph. that is a peak speed. average over distance is slower. my ex-racer, millie, won a stakes race of around 500 yards in a time that works out to about 39.4 mph. made her owner 10k. she was injured in her next race, and i adopted her soon after. sadly gone over the bridge now.

anyhow, priestly impact weapons on unarmoured crania could produce blood. as watching CSI (or NCIS) has amply demonstrated. i recall a certain film where a man of the cloth bonked opponents with one, saying 'god forgive me' after each blow.

to bring us back on topic a bit, i would think a blunderbus would make a reasonable impact weapon after it'd been fired. have seen one with a fold-out bayonet for non-ordained use.

*super-dog:
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Old 2nd May 2017, 05:55 PM   #23
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I should make a repair on my last post; my suggestion that this lock could also have been brought from Spain, is not founded as, in reality, this is a Portuguese pattern, as may be guessed by both ends of the typical 'curly' style frizzen spring, hidden behind the shield.


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Old 1st October 2017, 02:54 PM   #24
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So ... finally mine .
New pictures are not necessarily better but, it obliges .
As usual these local rural blunderbusses are composed of whatever origin components; only that, in this case, they all seem to be Portuguese, contrary to those with British parts, namely salvaged from the Peninsular War.
The frizzen dated 1821 would be the main issue, as this ought to be a replacer, judging by the fact that these 'three screw locks' are certainly earlier (mid-end 18th century ...). It also plays a lot loose, not due ro its visible battery wearing but to its 'foot' being much narrower than its pivot section.
A second note goes for the detail in the upper jaw; a gold 'filet' that is not present inits lower part nor in the rest of the decoration.
There are also traces that the beautiful trigger guard has a story to tell, judging by the wood marks in the front.
A final note for the stock, which seems to be offset, denouncing an 'advanced' procedures.
The side plate a plain brass replacement; i am making arrangements for a local engraver to chisel some decoration familiar to the one in the main lock plate.

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Old 4th October 2017, 07:22 PM   #25
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Now it doesn't look so dull. Look at the difference; one hour in the smith.


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Old 5th October 2017, 08:14 PM   #26
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Default Parabens!

Congratulations! All good things come to those who lie in wait. It looks a lot cleaner and more presentable as well now that it's in your possession.
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Old 6th October 2017, 03:11 PM   #27
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Hi Fernando,

Congratulations to that very beautiful blunderbuss.
I think, the date "1821" got nothing to do with the year of production. Maybe it is a memory for something important in the life of the owner and so on.
The golden filet on the upper jaw could also be a soldering seam from an old repairing job. The upper jaw is under high stress if the gun is fired.

Very nice blunderbuss and I'm happy for you that you finally got it.


Regards,
Roland
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Old 6th October 2017, 03:43 PM   #28
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Muito obrigado Philip; very kind of you .

Dankeschön Roland ... and excelent remarks, which i take good note .
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Old 7th October 2017, 05:01 AM   #29
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Awesome piece, Fernando! You must have had to nag the seller night and day for 6 months to get it!!!
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:40 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
Awesome piece, Fernando! You must have had to nag the seller night and day for 6 months to get it!!!

You bet; permanent naging from my side and later a certain pressure from third parties. But in the end that hawk, aware of my strong desire, has put a robber price on it .
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