Karabela???????

ariel · 24th January 2005, 03:31 AM

This one was just bought for a LOT of money by some Polish patriot who obviously wanted to have the sword of his ancestors hanging on the wall of his living room.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3776599168

My only problem with it (besides the fact that it is a LOT of money!) is that it is NOT a Polish karabela at all and never went even close to Mazovian bogs, Warsaw or even Lviv....
This is, IMHO, an Arabian saif: the crossguard and the embossed brass sheathing over the scabbard are giveaways, and the handle is also Arabian and not the Polish-Hungarian stylized eagle head that is characteristic of Karabelas.
Should I send a polite note to the happy buyer and congratulate him on his new field of interest?
Are there any dissenting opinions re. the origin of this (admittedly lovely, but grossly misrepresented and overpriced) sword?

Rivkin · 24th January 2005, 04:28 AM

Well, I'm a kindjal guy, so the hell I know, but it looks like Yemen to me.

Jeff D · 24th January 2005, 05:08 AM

Arab or possibly Ottoman. See a similar one on Pg. 133 of Tirri's book.

Jeff

erlikhan · 24th January 2005, 07:25 PM

i agree. Seems Arabian, but to determine which Arab country,exceeds my knowledge. About the price, if the scabbard is true gold gilded , it could be an important plus,not? i couldnt understand if it is or not from the pictures.

RSWORD · 25th January 2005, 03:03 AM

I think the blade very well could be E European but it would not be uncommon to find a Hungarian or Polish blade mounted up in an Arabian Saif. When I first saw this auction I also felt it was a very nice Saif with a good E European blade but probably not a Polish Karabela.

derek · 25th January 2005, 09:55 PM

This sword looks a lot like one I got from Yemeni dealer in the UAE (bottom blade). My blade is a Wilkinson from Ethiopian, complete with Amharic script. Looks like I got a steal.

ariel · 26th January 2005, 01:38 AM

Comparing to the one just sold for > $4,000 anything is a steal....
Perfect match!

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2005, 02:53 AM

The karabela form hilt has long been established as a national style for centuries in Poland, and these are often present on important early parade sabres. Naturally the authentic sabres command incredible prices, and the Poles are inherently proud people, so I'm not surprised at the unfortunate results here.
This is as noted an Arabian saif, and similar examples are illustrated and discussed in "The Arms& Armour of Arabia" by Robert Elgood (pp.13-15) and an example of one from the 18th century is shown in "Les Armes Orientales" by Iaroslav Lebedynsky (p.14). It would seem that this form is typically of embossed silver hilt with the earlier examples having multilobate pommel and all characteristically have chain linking pommel and quillon. It is correct that these swords are found in the Yemen, particularly in Hadhramaut, according to Elgood (p.15), where he notes further that these were often mounted in Hyderabad in India, where warriors often served as mercenaries. The scabbards are distinguished by the throat locket which receives the langet, and hilt and scabbard motif is of embossed silver, with red silk or velvet backing.

The Polish association to the hilt form known as 'karabela' evolved from trade and political links to Persia in early 17th century, where the Poles were allied with them against the Ottomans. The Polish national pride is well placed in the brilliant cavalry for which they are famous, especially the legendary "Winged Hussars" which we have discussed on another thread.
I think this pride may be best described by the Polish author Prof. Andrzej Nadolski in his "Polish Arms-Side Arms" introduction (1974),when he notes his inspiration for his book, "...while filling these sheets with descriptions of various examples of side-arms, I kept thinking about a certain modest Polish sabre,'model 1921' which I have kept in view since my earliest childhood and which-like so many others-disappeared in the flames of September 1939".

Thus, even the simplest sabre is kept in highest esteem, which is the way it should be.

Best regards,
Jim

eftihis · 27th January 2005, 12:06 AM

Hallo all,
strange enough, when i visit Askeri museum in December, i saw a display of similar swords. The description was "balkan swords". Is any possibility this to be the case?
Regards!

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2005, 12:52 AM

Eftihis,
Thank you for sharing this interesting photo as well as the remarkable attribution! These are all distinctly Arabian saifs of the form we are discussing and it would be fascinating to discover how the 'Balkan' attribution was arrived at!!
I can only imagine that trade and diplomatic interaction may be in play here, and the attribution may be assumed from the location where the items were collected. It is important to remember that it is indicated that these swords were apparantly mounted in numbers in Hyderabad for export to Arabia.

We have encountered many instances of miscaptioned weapons in museums, which often lead to erroneous cites in some published material.

Thank you again for sharing this.

Best regards,
Jim

24th January 2005, 03:31 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Karabela??????? This one was just bought for a LOT of money by some Polish patriot who obviously wanted to have the sword of his ancestors hanging on the wall of his living room. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3776599168 My only problem with it (besides the fact that it is a LOT of money!) is that it is NOT a Polish karabela at all and never went even close to Mazovian bogs, Warsaw or even Lviv.... This is, IMHO, an Arabian saif: the crossguard and the embossed brass sheathing over the scabbard are giveaways, and the handle is also Arabian and not the Polish-Hungarian stylized eagle head that is characteristic of Karabelas. Should I send a polite note to the happy buyer and congratulate him on his new field of interest? Are there any dissenting opinions re. the origin of this (admittedly lovely, but grossly misrepresented and overpriced) sword?

24th January 2005, 07:25 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	i agree. Seems Arabian, but to determine which Arab country,exceeds my knowledge. About the price, if the scabbard is true gold gilded , it could be an important plus,not? i couldnt understand if it is or not from the pictures. Last edited by erlikhan; 25th January 2005 at 12:05 AM.

25th January 2005, 09:55 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Looks a LOT like this one.......... This sword looks a lot like one I got from Yemeni dealer in the UAE (bottom blade). My blade is a Wilkinson from Ethiopian, complete with Amharic script. Looks like I got a steal.

27th January 2005, 12:06 AM	#9
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Is it for sure a saif? Hallo all, strange enough, when i visit Askeri museum in December, i saw a display of similar swords. The description was "balkan swords". Is any possibility this to be the case? Regards! Attached Images

24th January 2005, 04:28 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I'm a kindjal guy, so the hell I know, but it looks like Yemen to me.

24th January 2005, 05:08 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Arab or possibly Ottoman. See a similar one on Pg. 133 of Tirri's book. Jeff

25th January 2005, 03:03 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I think the blade very well could be E European but it would not be uncommon to find a Hungarian or Polish blade mounted up in an Arabian Saif. When I first saw this auction I also felt it was a very nice Saif with a good E European blade but probably not a Polish Karabela.

26th January 2005, 01:38 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Comparing to the one just sold for > $4,000 anything is a steal.... Perfect match!

26th January 2005, 02:53 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	The karabela form hilt has long been established as a national style for centuries in Poland, and these are often present on important early parade sabres. Naturally the authentic sabres command incredible prices, and the Poles are inherently proud people, so I'm not surprised at the unfortunate results here. This is as noted an Arabian saif, and similar examples are illustrated and discussed in "The Arms& Armour of Arabia" by Robert Elgood (pp.13-15) and an example of one from the 18th century is shown in "Les Armes Orientales" by Iaroslav Lebedynsky (p.14). It would seem that this form is typically of embossed silver hilt with the earlier examples having multilobate pommel and all characteristically have chain linking pommel and quillon. It is correct that these swords are found in the Yemen, particularly in Hadhramaut, according to Elgood (p.15), where he notes further that these were often mounted in Hyderabad in India, where warriors often served as mercenaries. The scabbards are distinguished by the throat locket which receives the langet, and hilt and scabbard motif is of embossed silver, with red silk or velvet backing. The Polish association to the hilt form known as 'karabela' evolved from trade and political links to Persia in early 17th century, where the Poles were allied with them against the Ottomans. The Polish national pride is well placed in the brilliant cavalry for which they are famous, especially the legendary "Winged Hussars" which we have discussed on another thread. I think this pride may be best described by the Polish author Prof. Andrzej Nadolski in his "Polish Arms-Side Arms" introduction (1974),when he notes his inspiration for his book, "...while filling these sheets with descriptions of various examples of side-arms, I kept thinking about a certain modest Polish sabre,'model 1921' which I have kept in view since my earliest childhood and which-like so many others-disappeared in the flames of September 1939". Thus, even the simplest sabre is kept in highest esteem, which is the way it should be. Best regards, Jim

27th January 2005, 12:52 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Eftihis, Thank you for sharing this interesting photo as well as the remarkable attribution! These are all distinctly Arabian saifs of the form we are discussing and it would be fascinating to discover how the 'Balkan' attribution was arrived at!! I can only imagine that trade and diplomatic interaction may be in play here, and the attribution may be assumed from the location where the items were collected. It is important to remember that it is indicated that these swords were apparantly mounted in numbers in Hyderabad for export to Arabia. We have encountered many instances of miscaptioned weapons in museums, which often lead to erroneous cites in some published material. Thank you again for sharing this. Best regards, Jim