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Old 25th October 2014, 02:44 PM   #1
cornelistromp
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Default THE TWO HANDED KATZBALGER

this will be a very short thread, since there are practically no examples left.

rarer than the already extremely rare Katzbalger is the two handed Katzbalger.

At landsknecht art from the 16th century, this type occurs frequently, nevertheless there are only very few real two hand Katzbalger preserved in collections and museums.
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Old 25th October 2014, 02:54 PM   #2
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Old 25th October 2014, 04:19 PM   #3
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Two-handed Sword
•Dated: circa 1530?!?
•Culture: German
•Measurements: overall length 138.5 cm. Blade 106 cm

The sword has a broad double-edged blade cut with a series of narrow fullers both on each side and over the ricasso; the latter is also stamped with three small marks on both sides. The iron hilt is fashioned in the Landsknecht style, with moulded and bold spirally fluted S-shaped guard, matching plummet-shaped pommel, and moulded leather-covered grip.
Copyright © 2014 Hermann Historica
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Old 26th October 2014, 04:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
this will be a very short thread...

Short ... but great
Thanks for sharing, Jasper.
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Old 27th October 2014, 05:32 PM   #5
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Another fantastic post! Thank you.
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Old 28th October 2014, 11:10 AM   #6
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Default THE TWO HANDED KATZBALGER

Beautiful long swords.
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Old 29th October 2014, 11:36 PM   #7
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Default TWO HANDED KATZBALGER

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
.


Hello cornelistromp,

Nice swords but the Katzbalger is always a short sword with a maximum blade length of 60cm.
The Katzbalger is intended for closest combat.

In English "Katzbalger" is Katz(e)=cat and Balger=scramble, because of its fast Action.

Kind regards
Roland
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Old 2nd November 2014, 02:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello cornelistromp,

Nice swords but the Katzbalger is always a short sword with a maximum blade length of 60cm.
The Katzbalger is intended for closest combat.

In English "Katzbalger" is Katz(e)=cat and Balger=scramble, because of its fast Action.

Kind regards
Roland



Hi Roland,


your statement about the katzbalgers is somewhere between very amusing and total nonsense.

Total nonsense is the Katzbalger is always a short sword with a maximum blade length of 60cm, this is based on nothing, where did you get this crap from?
Like other types of swords there are katzbalgers with long and short blades. the shortest Katzbalger blade that I know of is in the Historical museum of Bern, No. 7390/10099 with a blade of 56,2x4,4 cm.
All the others are all much longer!!
for example, the two onehanders posted above in #2, have a blade length of 67,1cm and 77,5cm.


the etymology of the German name katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, ( in the Germany Language wie Katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.


because Katzbalger comes in different types of appearances, with flared grips, pommel caps and real pommels etc, I have drawn a Katzbalger definition in 2008 to indicate the limits.

to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight mainly two edged blade, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3. basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


best,
Jasper

Last edited by cornelistromp : 3rd November 2014 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 08:04 AM   #9
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[QUOTE=cornelistromp]
"Hi Roland, your statement about the katzbalger is somewhere between very amusing and total nonsense. "
---

Thank you for your warm words. But before you offend people, you should spend more time for studying.
The Katzbalger is always a short sword, whether you believe it or not.

It is not necessary to answer my comment, it was the last one in this unfriendly forum.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 11:33 AM   #10
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Hi Roland,

Perhaps the tone of Cornelistromp's reply was too vivid. Surely he got a bit touched by your statement, considering his knowledge of this type of swords, being himself also a collector and reportedly documented in the subject.
However given that you felt offended with it, he has always the opportunity to repair his approach.
On the other hand, considering that such reaction was originated by your firm contradiction to the contents of his thread, you might have as well come around and expand the evidence of your categorical observations, as it seems you are also solid within the area.
That this forum is unfriendly because of this ephemeral episode, is surely a subjective remark; it definitely lacks the basis to become objective.
Obviously you are left free to choose your options; no one wishes you being here against your desire.

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Old 3rd November 2014, 02:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
[QUOTE=cornelistromp]
"Hi Roland, your statement about the katzbalger is somewhere between very amusing and total nonsense. "
---

Thank you for your warm words. But before you offend people, you should spend more time for studying.
The Katzbalger is always a short sword, whether you believe it or not.

It is not necessary to answer my comment, it was the last one in this unfriendly forum.


Roland,
sorry for my sharp text, it was not my intention to offend you, it is nothing personal.
However if you claim something like you did, it is appropriate that you come with support for this, otherwise it remains an unsubstantiated one-liner without further meaning.

This can be an article from the Arms-Armour literature or measurements taken in museums and private collections etc.
And I'm also curious how you come to information like this, personal judgment ? Internet ? by hearsay?

please do not worry about my study of different swords, I'm on schedule.

best,
Jasper

Last edited by cornelistromp : 4th November 2014 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 5th November 2014, 12:14 PM   #12
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back to business
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Old 8th November 2014, 01:08 PM   #13
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the sword of St Paul in a painting by Pier Francesco Sacchi 1520.
National gallery in London No 1523
it's a two-hand sword with side-rings mounted at the center.
the side-rings are in the form of a Katzbalger 8 shaped guard and are not closed.

closed ring guards you do not you see before 1515 at sword hilts, my theory is that those closed side-ring guards are originally developed from the Katzbalger hilts.

The sword of St Paul's beautiful example of a transitional type.
Also there were around 1520 parry hooks and a Velvet grip clothing with decoration.

best,
jasper
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