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Old 29th September 2014, 04:47 PM   #1
Cavalco
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Default Arquebus fork rest c.1529-1530

Hello guys, my English is quite poor, and I write using google translator, sorry.

I thought the arquebuses were light for use without fork, but I've seen in a pictorial representation which undoubtedly are spanish arquebusiers carrying arquebuses and forks.

La cavalcata dell'Imperator Carlo V nel suo ingresso in Bologna. Venice c.1530
http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...px?strFest=0092

The last two images from the Entry of Charles V into Bologna in 1529 to be crowned Holy Roman Emperor:
Italian text:
Nel ultimo sono venuti, 6, bandiere di
spagnoli li quali sono venuti co la ce-
sarea maestà p mare li qualli vien sti-
madi apresso 3000 , et veneno in or-
denanza a 5 a 5 ,a chavalo et a pede. Et
questo se fa notto a tutte le natione
Stampata in venetia a di p.º luio.

Spanish translation [by myself]:
En el último vienen 6 banderas [compañías] de
españoles, los cuales han venido con la
cesárea majestad por mar, los cuales son
estimados en unos 3000, y vienen
en orden de 5 en 5, a caballo y a pie.
Y esto "se hizo notar" a todas las naciones.
Estampada en Venecia a primero de julio

English google translation [sorry again]:
In the last [image] six spaniard flags [companies]
who have come with Caesarean Majesty by sea, which are
estimated at about 3000, and come
by 5 by 5, on horseback and on foot.
And this was pointed out to all nations.
Printed in Venice on July


http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...092&strPage=029

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...id=127555&stc=1

http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...092&strPage=031

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...id=127556&stc=1

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...id=127557&stc=1

Notice that the German arquebusiers - lansquenetes - are represented with arquebuses without forks:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...id=127558&stc=1
http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...092&strPage=009
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Last edited by Cavalco : 30th September 2014 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 29th September 2014, 05:29 PM   #2
fernando
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Hola Cavalco. Welcome to the forum.
I guess it all depends on the period dimensions of the arcabuz or musket . Probably the ones that needed the rest (fork) came first and were rather long and heavy. Later versions, like the 'caliver', didn't need support.
I have just posted a picture of an arcabucero of the period of King Felipe II of Spain and apparently this style was already light enough to support without a fork.
I hope Michael (Matchlock) comes around to give you a full and competent information on this subject.

.
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Last edited by fernando : 29th September 2014 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 29th September 2014, 06:26 PM   #3
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Thanks for the welcome, Fernando. We're almost neighbors
I had always read that the arquebuses were fired without suspension, so my astonishment to see the engravings. I believed that the muskets were first used in the 1560s, and that the very concept of musket supposed use with fork; and arquebuses that were light pieces that did not require fork. But I guess that your explanation that they had heavier pieces that required the use of forks is the logical explanation.

Thank you
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Old 30th September 2014, 09:08 AM   #4
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Hello, Cavalco,


And a great big WELCOME from me as well - especially as you made a real giant leap to land smashing here, by posting these highly valuable sources of historic illustrations.
Thank you so much!


Without any doubt, they are an important contemporary proof of the upcoming of gun rests in the early 16th century, and their wider use by ca. 1530.

For more information on gun rests/forks, please see my new thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19127


Best,
Michael


Michael Trömner
Rebenstr. 9
D-93326 Abensberg
Lower Bavaria, Germany
  • Self-established Academic Medievalist
  • Graduated from Regensburg University in 1982
  • Stipendiary recipient and member of the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn
  • Author of BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, 2005
  • M. of the Arms & Armour Society, London since 1991
  • M. of the Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin since 1987
  • Expertises in European weapons, ironworks, and furniture of the 14th through 17th centuries
  • Preservation and academic documentation of museum collections

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Last edited by Matchlock : 1st October 2014 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 30th September 2014, 11:36 AM   #5
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Please see my new thread on gun rests/forks:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19127

Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 1st October 2014 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 30th September 2014, 11:39 AM   #6
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Hi Cavalco,


These links from your initial post did not seem to work, at least on my computer using Windows 7 and the latest version of Mozilla Firefox browser, so I added them here:

http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...092&strPage=009

http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...092&strPage=029

http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...092&strPage=031


http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/fe...px?strFest=0092


Let's hope they will work now.


Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 1st October 2014 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 30th September 2014, 02:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock


original musket rest.
This important utensil and its earliest upcoming will be referred to below.



I'm waiting


Thanks to you for your great welcome. I've been reading - basically watching - the forum mainly because of your work.

I've been reading the entry on snap tinderlock http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15306. Did that type of mechanism wear a trigger?

In Barcelona in 1529 over eight thousand [8270] troops embarked to accompany the emperor on his trip to Italy. We know from René Quatrefages - "La revolución militar moderna. El crisol español" / Modern Military Revolution, the Spanish melting pot - that among the shooters had "escopeteros" and "arcabuceros" or arquebusiers. For example, the company of Diego de Andrade, 279 soldiers, had 81 arquebusiers and escopeteros 27. The arcabucero charged more than the "escopetero".
I've been intrigued for years - no kidding - about the difference between escopetas and arquebuses, and assumed that the difference was calibers, but I also thought that there might be differences in the mechanisms triggering or in the material they were made: brass or iron.
The word "escopeta" is used in Spain regularly since 1508 - was previously used "espingarda" - and it seems the term was adopted in Italy from the word "schiopetta" but involving the same weapon. But clearly were different weapons, for two categories of soldiers resulted.

I add an image to display further details and questions. The arquebus red circle, has no key. Is it fired with fuse?
In the tails of the arquebuses with red circle you can see a piece. In the arquebuses of the German soldiers not appear
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Old 30th September 2014, 06:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalco
I'm waiting


Hi,
Please be patient and allow till tomorrow, for me to finish my first post and attachments.


Thanks to you for your great welcome. I've been reading - basically watching - the forum mainly because of your work.

I've been reading the entry on snap tinderlock http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15306. Did that type of mechanism wear a trigger?

It says in the text that the round lateral push-button on the lock plate acted as a trigger that would release the cocked serpentine, making it snap forward and get the piece of glowing tinder in touch with the powder on the igniting pan.


In Barcelona in 1529 over eight thousand [8270] troops embarked to accompany the emperor on his trip to Italy. We know from René Quatrefages - "La revolución militar moderna. El crisol español" / Modern Military Revolution, the Spanish melting pot - that among the shooters had "escopeteros" and "arcabuceros" or arquebusiers. For example, the company of Diego de Andrade, 279 soldiers, had 81 arquebusiers and escopeteros 27. The arcabucero charged more than the "escopetero".
I've been intrigued for years - no kidding - about the difference between escopetas and arquebuses, and assumed that the difference was calibers, but I also thought that there might be differences in the mechanisms triggering or in the material they were made: brass or iron.
The word "escopeta" is used in Spain regularly since 1508 - was previously used "espingarda" - and it seems the term was adopted in Italy from the word "schiopetta" but involving the same weapon. But clearly were different weapons, for two categories of soldiers resulted.

I add an image to display further details and questions. The arquebus red circle, has no key.
I understand that you mean a lock mechanism,
instead of key.


Is it fired with fuse?
Sure, as it did not have a lock mechanism it had to be fired using either a fuse/match or an igniting iron.


In the tails of the arquebuses with red circle you can see a piece. In the arquebuses of the German soldiers not appear

As I said, and will show soon, those butts have a trap, a recess with a sliding wooden cover; it was NOT a "patchbox" but was used to keep small cleaning utensils, like a worm and scourer, and wadding for the load.
Please see an Italian arquebus of ca. 1525-30, with a butt trap on the underside of the buttstock in which the original cleaning tools are still preserved; in
The Michael Trömner Collection:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=arquebus

Also see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18532&highlight=haquebut+graz+hofkircher,
post #5,
for guns of ca. 1525-30 with a butt trap, in Pilsen and Graz.


Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 1st October 2014 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 1st October 2014, 01:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Please see my new thread on gun rests/forks:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19127

Best,
Michael


Thank you so much for your work. I'm just an amateur, but I'm really interested in the subject. I appreciate it sincerely. I'll read it carefully

Regards, Carlos Valenzuela


Sure. A lock, not a key The spanish word "llave" is both lock and key.

Quote:
As I said, and will show soon, those butts have a trap, a recess with a sliding wooden cover; it was NOT a "patchbox" but was used to keep small cleaning utensils, like a worm and scourer, and wadding for the load.
Please see an Italian arquebus of ca. 1525-30, with a butt trap on the underside of the buttstock in which the original cleaning tools are still preserved; in The Michael Trömner Collection


Thanks for the clarification

Wadding for the load It is always used?

I have been looking for more information about the parade entry in bologna. Several relationships about the same. I have found it interesting to note one:

Della venuta e dimora in Bologna del sommo pontefice Clemente VII. per la coronazione de Carlo V. imperatore celebrata l'anno MDXXX. Cronaca con note documenti ed incisioni (1842) f.31/p.75
https://archive.org/details/dellavenutaedimo00gior

finalmente una compagnia di moschettieri a cavallo intorno a quaranta carri di polvere, palle, e diverse munizioni; da ultimo tre vessilliferi, ed un drappello di moschettieri a piedi, che chiudevano questo trionfale corteggio

[English google translation]
finally a company of musketeers [on horse] riding around forty wagons of powder, balls, and other munitions; least three standard-bearers, and a squad of musketeers on foot, which closed this triumphal procession

I always thought there had not been musketeers walk to the 1560s

Greetings, Carlos
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Old 1st October 2014, 05:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalco
Thank you so much for your work. I'm just an amateur, but I'm really interested in the subject. I appreciate it sincerely. I'll read it carefully

Regards, Carlos Valenzuela

Sure. A lock, not a key The spanish word "llave" is both lock and key.


Hola! Carlos,

It is my turn to say thank you for studying my writings; that's why I take all that toil ...


I was aware of the fact that llave meant both; Fernando, the other forum Spaniard interested in early firearms, once told me so.


Thanks for the clarification

Wadding for the load It is always used?

It usually was; the reason being that the balls used with 'military' muzzle loading guns actually were of smaller caliber than the barrel bore. It quickened the loading procedure but if the gun was held, or aimed!, muzzle down, the ball would simply roll out.
It is the author's thesis that by ca. the 1540's, paper cartridges came in use.
Now the arquebusier, especially on horseback, would put the cartridge between his front teeth, ripp off the the ball, pour the gun powder in the barrel, "spit" the ball down the bore, crumble the paper and stuff it into the muzzle, to prevent the ball from falling out. Then he would simply ram the whole load home with the ramrod, prime the pan and was ready to fire.

I have been looking for more information about the parade entry in bologna. Several relationships about the same. I have found it interesting to note one:

Della venuta e dimora in Bologna del sommo pontefice Clemente VII. per la coronazione de Carlo V. imperatore celebrata l'anno MDXXX. Cronaca con note documenti ed incisioni (1842) f.31/p.75
https://archive.org/details/dellavenutaedimo00gior

finalmente una compagnia di moschettieri a cavallo intorno a quaranta carri di polvere, palle, e diverse munizioni; da ultimo tre vessilliferi, ed un drappello di moschettieri a piedi, che chiudevano questo trionfale corteggio

[English google translation]
finally a company of musketeers [on horse] riding around forty wagons of powder, balls, and other munitions; least three standard-bearers, and a squad of musketeers on foot, which closed this triumphal procession

I always thought there had not been musketeers walk to the 1560s

Oh yes, they usually had to. They were the infantry, after all, the foot soldiers.
It is only in those stupid Dumas movies about The Three Musketeers that you see them without a musket but always on horseback, or riding a coach instead ...


Greetings, Carlos
Kindest regards to Spain from Bavaria,
and best,
Michael
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Old 1st October 2014, 07:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Wadding for the load It is always used?

It usually was; the reason being that the balls used with 'military' muzzle loading guns actually were of smaller caliber than the barrel bore. It quickened the loading procedure but if the gun was held, or aimed!, muzzle down, the ball would simply roll out.
It is the author's thesis that by ca. the 1540's, paper cartridges came in use.
Now the arquebusier, especially on horseback, would put the cartridge between his front teeth, ripp off the the ball, pour the gun powder in the barrel, "spit" the ball down the bore, crumble the paper and stuff it into the muzzle, to prevent the ball from falling out. Then he would simply ram the whole load home with the ramrod, prime the pan and was ready to fire.


In manuals such as Gheyn, the movement to put the wadding down the barrel is not indicated. I knew the difference in size between the bullet and the barrel: I attached a picture of sections of differents sizes of arquebuses and muskets in use from a manual of Cristóbal Lechuga [Discurso del capitan Cristoual Lechuga, en que trata de la artilleria, y de todo lo necessario a ella, 1611, p.71]
http://books.google.es/books?id=gUo...epage&q&f=false

In another manual - hunting manual: "Arte de ballestería y montería, 1644" - the author explains the use of wadding/blocks of bitumen felt, but to shoot pellets. It's not the same, of course...

But it's absolutely logical what are you explaining about the need of use the wadding. Thank you so much

Quote:
I always thought there had not been musketeers walk to the 1560s

Oh yes, they usually had to. They were the infantry, after all, the foot soldiers.
It is only in those stupid Dumas movies about The Three Musketeers that you see them without a musket but always on horseback, or riding a coach instead ...


I meant so I had understood that the Musketeers were not as foot soldiers off the strongholds before the 1560s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Kindest regards to Spain from Bavaria,
and best,
Michael

Regards to Bavaria from Spain, Carlos
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Old 5th October 2014, 11:03 AM   #12
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For earliest depictions of gun barrels, please also cf. my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...nnon+depictions


Nobody has, at least to my knowledge, assembled these up to now.


From top to bottom:

- 1326, Walter de Milemete: Holkham ms 458, British Library

- 1326-7, Walter de Milemete: Oxford Christ Church ms 2 (traditional term), now: Oxford Bodleian Library ms 92, fol. 70v

- ca. 1340, detail of a fresco at Eremo Lecceto Abbey, near Siena, Italy - the earliest known piece of artwork depicting a wooden "carriage", or a "stock"

- ca. 1343-5, and very similar to the foregoing, from Jan van Boendale:
Brabantsche Yeesten (Great Deeds of Brabant), Brussels, Royal Library, ms IV 684

As seen in the latter, in the earliest days of the gun, the charge of powder required was so large that the stone (!) ball was virtually located in the muzzle area (German: Steinbüchse).


Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 5th October 2014 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 5th October 2014, 01:56 PM   #13
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Thanks for the answer.

About wadding and paper cartridges, I watched your two threads:

The Use of Wadding in 14th to 17th Century Gun Loading
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12290

Mid to Late 16th Century Patrons for Paper Cartridges
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8540


Very interesting!
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Old 6th October 2014, 01:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalco
Thanks for the answer.

About wadding and paper cartridges, I watched your two threads:

The Use of Wadding in 14th to 17th Century Gun Loading
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12290

Mid to Late 16th Century Patrons for Paper Cartridges
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8540


Very interesting!

Thanks a lot, Carlos,

That's exactly what they were meant to be ...
Nobody but me has ever cared about such things.

Best,
Michael
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