Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th July 2014, 11:17 AM   #1
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default a group of landsknecht swords with star-shaped pommels

when I got into my hands a more developed Katzbalger with star-shaped pommel and baskethilt, ten years ago, I thought it was a strange looking weapon.
Now it appears that there are similar made of this type and that this development with the same style characteristics; star pommel, mythical creatures, and curling iron scrolls are also found on two hand swords from this period.
The brief period when these types were made is between 1550-1570, more on this later.
the Katzbalger shows that the hilt bars have evolved into a basket hilt to protect the whole hand. The 8-shaped rod parry has no ore ball shaped end nodes but an end tail with two scrolls that serve as hilt plate to protect the hand against stabbing . A stylish almost identical Katzbalger was found in the depot of the Rijksmuseum.

This star-shaped pommel is probably the forerunner of the mushroom-shaped pommel which frequently occurs around 1575 at dussages, rapiers and two hand swords. The mythical animals carved into the guard are typically seen on katzbalger hilts in the first half of the 16th century, the form of these heads becomes in time more abstract. the iron scrolls do come in, in the third quarter of the 16th century.

The two-hand sword with star-shaped pommel.
it looks like if this sword is created after a fixed definition, they are in fact practically all the same.
hilt: cruciform with arched quillons terminating in rounded scrolls, mythical animals spitting out these scrolls, star shaped pommel, long two handed grip.
Blade: straight double edged of flat diamond shape section, long rectangular ricasso with down curved ( in the direction of the grip) parrying lugs.

This type of twohander I encountered sporadically, one in my collection, one of the Rijksmuseum ex. Visser collection, one in the museum in Brussels, one auctioned at czernys, one in the musée Larmee in Paris.
it was a great revelation when I saw a large group of this type in the depot of the armory in Emden. (thanks to Carl). it is unfortunate that this rare type is not shown to the visitors.
The sword in the Rijksmuseum is of importance because it gives a foothold to date this type.
painted on the blade of the rijksmuseum piece; DIT ZWAARD HEEFT GEVOERT JONKHEER JACUS CABELLAU GOUVERNEUR DER STADT ALCMAAR IN T JAAR 1573.
THIS SWORD WAS CARRIED BY JONKHEER JACUS CABELLAU GOVERNOR OF THE TOWN OF ALKMAAR IN THE YEAR 1573.
Cabellau (cabeljau) was the leader of the city soldiers, and repulsed successfully the siege of the city by the Spaniards. which eventually made the Spaniards to withdraw.
The pommel has a decoration in relief of two codfishes, the translation of (Dutch) Cabellau is codfish.

In the third quarter of the 16th Century two hand swords increasingly became symbolic rather than retaining their former status as fighting weapons of certain elite soldier, They developed into symbols of dignity and authority, for instance within the town elite. In the Dutch civic guards they were carried by the kapiteins dármes, non-commissioned officers in charge of the arms and military equipment kept in the town armoury.
(cf JP Puype)
This dividing line is very thin, many of these weapons show signs of battle at the edge of the blade.

The origin of this type, though I have no hard evidence for this is probably the Netherlands, given the large number in the depot of Emden and some provenance( old Dutch collections) of the other examples.


enjoy the pictures©

VBW,
Jasper

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:52 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:19 AM   #2
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

twohander own collection, pictures ©
Attached Images
      

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:44 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:22 AM   #3
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

pictures katzbalger own collection ©
Attached Images
    

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:45 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:26 AM   #4
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

katzbalger depot Rijksmuseum and Cabellau zwaard rijks museum.
pictures ©
Attached Images
        

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:45 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:29 AM   #5
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

twohander Bussels and Musee de lármee Paris© and czernys (black Pictures)
Attached Images
    

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:46 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:34 AM   #6
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

and last but not least, Depot Emden. Pictures ©
Attached Images
            

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:47 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:37 AM   #7
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

more Emden, pictures ©
Attached Images
          

Last edited by cornelistromp : 26th July 2014 at 11:47 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 11:42 AM   #8
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

All photos in this thread are copyrighted© by Carl Koppeschaar and/or the author of the thread, Cornelistromp.
They may not be used except by written permission from the author.
All rights reserved.

thanks Carl for the beautiful pictures!


best,
Jasper
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 12:39 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,346
Default

Magnificent swords !!!
Thanks a lot for the pictures and for the enlightening text, Jasper .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 03:14 PM   #10
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 231
Default

Hi Jasper,

would it be possible to visit and see them ?
After all i dont live that far away ...

kind regards

Dirk
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2014, 06:00 PM   #11
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

by moving at the moment my collection is in storage, the museum depots are generally not accessible, so only the cabellau sword in Amsterdam and the sword in Brussels and Paris are open to the public.

best,
Jasper

Last edited by cornelistromp : 27th July 2014 at 08:10 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2014, 08:58 AM   #12
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

katzbalger musee de lármee + sandolin museum
Attached Images
      
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2014, 04:59 PM   #13
bkp747
Member
 
bkp747's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 15
Default

Beautiful pictures, fantastic post. I love those old swords... Thank you very much.
bkp747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2014, 01:41 PM   #14
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

landsknecht with starpommel sword, anonymus around 1560.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by cornelistromp : 14th September 2014 at 02:00 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2014, 09:48 AM   #15
Multumesc
Member
 
Multumesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Romania
Posts: 174
Send a message via Yahoo to Multumesc
Default a group of landsknecht swords with star-shaped pommels

Beautiful swords !
Multumesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2014, 11:51 AM   #16
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multumesc
Beautiful swords !

Yes indeed
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2014, 04:06 PM   #17
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

landsknecht in colours with star pommels
Attached Images
            

Last edited by cornelistromp : 19th October 2014 at 04:52 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2014, 04:54 PM   #18
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

some more
Attached Images
           

Last edited by cornelistromp : 20th October 2014 at 07:35 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2014, 07:53 AM   #19
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

landsknecht 2 hander Braunfels castle germany
Attached Images
   
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2014, 09:10 PM   #20
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Philadelphia Museum of Art circa 1560
Attached Images
 
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2015, 03:02 PM   #21
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

I recently got the Czerny sword, the one of post#5, through a detour in my collection.
It is a beautiful specimen, 189cm long and 45cm hilt with an almost 10cm star pommel.
inside the parry rings are impact plates with V-shaped notches,notches in the plate and inside the parry ring, probably to secure a blade of an opponent.
These thrust plates with notches are also seen @ some of similar type of two-handed swords in the Ostfriesisches Landesmuseum - storage, Emden, Germany.

like the sword in #1 there is a Passau running wolf inlay at the blade.
attached some detail pictures of the sword.

best,
jasper
Attached Images
            

Last edited by cornelistromp : 28th March 2015 at 03:37 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2015, 07:08 PM   #22
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

some inner plates.
Attached Images
         
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2015, 01:44 PM   #23
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

from the army museum in Brussels, developed katzbalger with complex basket hilt around 1550 and a later pierced blade
Attached Images
  
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2015, 09:28 PM   #24
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,666
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
twohander own collection, pictures ©



Just a trivial note, these 'star shaped' pommels in the flattened form according to Moudry & Konopisky ("Edged Weapons : Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy", Prague, 1991, p.20-21) these curious pommels are often termed 'kosarice' ( = a popular Croatian pastry with similar shape).

The example (#3) in this reference is described as a mid-European sabre of c1600, and it is noted elsewhere in notes that swords with these kinds of pommels are known in Dalmatia and Venice in 16th c.

The sabre in the reference has a trellis type asymmetrical guard of early schiavona type. It is amazing how much the diffusion of the styles and forms of these arms are diffused via these mercenary forces throughout the armies and courts of Europe.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2015, 07:45 AM   #25
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Hi Jim,

Thanks, interesting.
could you please post an image, I'm curious about the size and shape of the pommel, certainly on a schiavona.

best,
Jasper
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2015, 11:08 PM   #26
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,666
Default

Here is the page, please pardon the scribbled notes around it
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 8th May 2015 at 11:31 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2015, 09:49 AM   #27
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,945
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default Heart Shaped Cut Out Decoration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Here is the page, please pardon the scribbled notes around it


Salaams Jim et al, There appears to be a link between these hand and a half/two handers in the decoration to the guards and the Basket decoration on some Scottish/English? Basket hilts...Is it feasible that since the highlanders also used similar weapons ...and did so earlier than the appearance of the Basket Hilts that the decoration for example in the heart shaped cut out at Cornelistromp post at 21 in the first 3 pictures may have been transmitted to Basket Hilts from this design? This would indicate that "European" design was responsible for heart shaped cut outs on Scottish/English Basket Hilts. The caveat "Perhaps" is added.

To be clearer, from Harvey J S Withers I Quote"Scottish Two-Handed Swords.
In the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, highlanders also carried the claidheamhda laimh or two handed sword. It is similar to German or Swiss two handed (Zweihander) swords carried by Landsknechte or mercenaries, and the few surviving examples have Scottish hilts with German blades. The hilt normally includes an oval shell guard and long, flattened, down-swept quillons. The third type of sword is referred to as the “Lowland Sword”. These have very long blades, with characteristic side rings to the hilt, globular pommels and quillons set at right angles to the blade, terminating in knobs"Unquote.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 9th May 2015 at 10:00 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2015, 08:51 PM   #28
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,666
Default

Well observed Ibrahiim, and it does indeed seem quite possible of the cross pollination of forms as well as decorative motif. Scottish mercenary forces through European certainly must have adopted these kinds of nuances for their own in many cases. While often it must be conceded that a device such as the heart may well be simply an aesthetic, there are sometimes more meaningful applications, which unfortunately are unable to be supported and remain speculations.

These diffusions are of course well known in many aspects of these arms, whether overall, or simply elements such as these interesting pommels. I think that is the key importance of these forums as it provides a venue to share comparative examples to find any consistencies.

All best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2015, 10:47 AM   #29
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,945
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Well observed Ibrahiim, and it does indeed seem quite possible of the cross pollination of forms as well as decorative motif. Scottish mercenary forces through European certainly must have adopted these kinds of nuances for their own in many cases. While often it must be conceded that a device such as the heart may well be simply an aesthetic, there are sometimes more meaningful applications, which unfortunately are unable to be supported and remain speculations.

These diffusions are of course well known in many aspects of these arms, whether overall, or simply elements such as these interesting pommels. I think that is the key importance of these forums as it provides a venue to share comparative examples to find any consistencies.

All best regards,
Jim


Salaams Jim, Thanks for your reply ....I was deeply ensconsed in Heraldic Symbols but have yet to evidence a potential linkage with the heart shape. Perhaps it is Talismanic.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2015, 02:24 PM   #30
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Just a trivial note, these 'star shaped' pommels in the flattened form according to Moudry & Konopisky ("Edged Weapons : Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy", Prague, 1991, p.20-21) these curious pommels are often termed 'kosarice' ( = a popular Croatian pastry with similar shape).

The example (#3) in this reference is described as a mid-European sabre of c1600, and it is noted elsewhere in notes that swords with these kinds of pommels are known in Dalmatia and Venice in 16th c.

The sabre in the reference has a trellis type asymmetrical guard of early schiavona type. It is amazing how much the diffusion of the styles and forms of these arms are diffused via these mercenary forces throughout the armies and courts of Europe.


thanks for the picture.
I have noticed this pie-shaped pommel cap more often on schiavona and other south European swords, however unforunately it has nothing to do with the starpommels under discussion; not in form but also not in terms of time.

these are approximately 100 years later.

best
Jasper
Attached Images
 
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:31 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.