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Old 4th January 2014, 09:21 AM   #1
cornelistromp
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Default dagger series, nr3 the Flemish ballock dagger late 15thC

the ballockdagger firstly appeared around 1300, characterizing the hilt that was carved from a single piece of wood and it portrays a penis and testicles in the 12 o'clock position.

So not a kidney! as the prudish Victorians described it.

the next dagger is a sub type of ballock which came into fashion at the end of the 15th century.
I see this particular dagger as the mother of almost all of the later landsknecht daggers.

it has a trumpet/calyx shaped round handle that suddenly flares outward, mostly covered with an engraved brass cover plate.

The testicles are still made of wood and there is a short metal parryrod or blade catcher
Most daggers of this type have a tapering blade of diamond section and a hexagonal ricasso! so this dagger can either be used underhand, with the blade pointing downward or overhand.

Laking described this dagger as Flemish therefor this type of dagger is often described as flemish flemish in other literature.
The fact remains that this dagger also can be seen in drawing and paintings of German artists.
this Ballock type will disappear somewhere in the beginning of the 16th century.
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Last edited by cornelistromp : 4th January 2014 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 4th January 2014, 11:02 AM   #2
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from arms and armour of knight and landsknechts. and some cover plates.
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Last edited by cornelistromp : 4th January 2014 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 4th January 2014, 02:45 PM   #3
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Not that I was able to add anything of scholarly substance but I do like both this dagger and the iconographic sources you added a lot!
Good job!

Best,
Michael
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Old 4th January 2014, 06:14 PM   #4
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michael, Thank you for the compliment. dagger from my collection
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Old 5th January 2014, 08:06 AM   #5
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dagger Boijmans museum
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Old 5th January 2014, 09:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
michael, Thank you for the compliment. dagger from my collection


I thought so; meanwhile I guess I understand better what you (and I) both like: good objects in 'untouched' condition and with a provenance!

m
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Old 5th January 2014, 03:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I thought so; meanwhile I guess I understand better what you (and I) both like: good objects in 'untouched' condition and with a provenance!

m


yes I do fully agree.
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Old 6th January 2014, 12:49 PM   #8
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an early transitional type from the royal arsenal in copenhagen

for an early ballock dagger 1425 with Gryphon terminals see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13093

+


Jheronimus Bosch 1450! (published by Hieronymus Cock in 1560)
the eaters of fat and sausage
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Old 6th January 2014, 10:54 PM   #9
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Great examples! I have always loved these and their cousins: Scottish dirks.
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Old 8th January 2014, 12:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Great examples! I have always loved these and their cousins: Scottish dirks.


thanks
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Old 12th January 2014, 11:10 AM   #11
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tri-lobbed ballock dagger
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Old 12th January 2014, 11:45 AM   #12
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Just wonderful, Jasper,

Thank you so much for sharing!

Best,
m
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Old 12th January 2014, 06:23 PM   #13
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I I remember it correctly I have never seen a three-lobed dagger before. So this one is just highly remarkable in my eyes!

m
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Old 12th January 2014, 07:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I I remember it correctly I have never seen a three-lobed dagger before. So this one is just highly remarkable in my eyes!

m


actually there are quite a few.

The three lobes are THE reason I mentioned in post1 this type the mother of the typical landsknecht dagger . typical landsknecht dagger = picture d

around 1460 this ballock dagger came also with three wooden lobes. picture a and the pictures in my previous post.

A little later at the end of the 15th century the lobels of the ballock types were made of metal instead of wood. photo b. ( the classical ballock with wooden lobes also still exists next to it)

This dagger type evaluates in the first half of the 16th century with three short pareers rods and a sandwich metal grip. picture c

Alongside this type also the distinctive landsknecht dagger with three parry blades found live. picture d

best,
Jasper
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Old 12th January 2014, 07:38 PM   #15
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Perfectly argued and documented, Jasper,


I have learned something new!


Thanks, and best,
Michael
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Old 13th January 2014, 07:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Perfectly argued and documented, Jasper,


I have learned something new!


Thanks, and best,
Michael


that's a compliment , thanks a lot Michael
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Old 13th January 2014, 02:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Perfectly argued and documented, Jasper,


I have learned something new!


Thanks, and best,
Michael


Yikes Michael!! If you have learned something new....imagine my situation as I am flailing about just reading this and seeing these fantastic images from Jasper! This is truly spellbinding seeing such examples of these important daggers, and I am amazed at the triple 'lobe' examples.
It rather distorts the 'ballock' analogy yes?

I always thought it interesting that particular anatomical allusion allegedly led the cautious Victorians to determine a less suggestive term by calling it a 'kidney dagger'.

While the lobes clearly appear to be typically in two, I always wonder if there is any symbolic significance or is the configuration simply an aesthetic? With that, the triple lobe arrangement even more begs the question, why the lobes?

Thank you both again for these fascinating topics and all that you both do in your phenomenal entries on these pages!!!!


All the best,
Jim
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Old 13th January 2014, 02:47 PM   #18
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Hi Jim,


I am convinced that the three lobes on these daggers followed a well-documented Gothic stylistic tradition: the Gothic trefoil (German Dreipass).
E.g., smith's marks were often struck double or three times on Gothic and Early-Renaissance ironworks like axt blades and barrels. Also, the trefoil itself was often employed as a means of decoration in that period.


Attached please find, in order of appearance:


- double trefoil arch above the Virgin's head, French, ca. 1375

- trefoil pommel, painting of St. Martin, museum Mühlheim

- trefoil pommel, Italian saber, ~1520-25, author's colln. (3 images)

- trefoil pommel, ca. 1520

- Italian swords with trefoil pommels, early 16th c., from Armi Bianche Italiane.

- trefoil-shaped padlock, mid-16th c.

- trefoil-shaped staghorn flask, extremely rare, engraved with an annunciation scene, Nuremberg, ca. 1540, author's colln. (3 images)

- trefoil element in Gothic architecture: arch on left side (Master of the Annunciation of Aix, ca. 1440)



Indeed, I'm eager to 'drink' more from Jaspers rich well of expertise!



Best wishes,
Michael
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Old 13th January 2014, 02:51 PM   #19
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C'mon Jim,
Have you never heard of three lobed kidneys ?
Here have you been ?
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Old 22nd January 2014, 07:10 AM   #20
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a later version from the late 15th century, here the ballocks have disappeared totally and are replaced by a parry plate. there is still a engraved pommel plate and a calyx shaped grip.
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