Testing your memory

fernando · 13th December 2013, 05:40 PM

Does anyone remember a thread some (reasonable) time ago, showing a sword (sabre) with an extremely (almost implausible) curved blade ?
Was it in this forum section ?
Thanks for your help

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2013, 05:48 PM

Hi Nando,
Yup, this is indeed a memory test ( especially for we uh, 'older folk

. Over the years of course I know we have discussed sabres with extremely parabolic blades but possibly you might recall more on other features of the sword you are recalling ?
Meanwhile, you know it'll drive me nuts til I find it

Usually Rick is the one who seems to relocate things back to the really, really old days here.

fernando · 13th December 2013, 06:03 PM

Extremely quick reaction Jim, thanks

.
Well, it wasn't sooo long ago; one ... two years

.
No, i don't recall most details, only the astonishingly curved blade, close to a 180º arch.
European it was ... probably French !

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2013, 07:02 PM

Hi Nando,
I think I recall that one, and it does seem that the French officers did often favor extreme 'exotica' in many cases with their sabres. I think a lot of this was during the flamboyance of the Napoleonic period and carrying over from their earlier attraction to Oriental and exotic forces implemented into auxiliary troops in their ranks. Im thinking of the pandours and then of course the Ottoman and Mamluk influences later.

In these times military fashion was de riguer and it seems the colorful uniforms and flamboyant arms were of profound importance. I believe after the campaign in Egypt that the French were probably first to adopt the Mamluk type sabres, and the Americans (well established allies with France) soon followed, then by the British.

The turn of the century was also a time of considerable experimentation and innovation with swords, and as Le Marchant sought developing regulation patterns he considered various foreign forms before arriving at the M1796 light cavalry sabre with heavy hatchet point blade.

I had a stirrup hilt sabre with unusual cant to its hilt and a dramatically curved blade (as you describe nearly ridiculous) a sharp point and a pronounced pipe back rod on the back of the blade. This I believed to be British around late 1790s and thought that it might be one of those prototypes (?) reflecting the hybridization of European rod type back and the curvature and point of a shamshir.
I would here note that the British M1803 regulation hilt (lionhead) for infantry and flank company officers often had extremely curved blades.

In my opinion most of these extremes were more toward the constant fashion competition among officers, and while seemingly rather curious they were quite valid at the time.

Though admittedly rambling here and not much help with the question I wanted to just add some salient notes pertaining to these kinds of blades for the readers and as always, look forward to their input.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th December 2013, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Nando,
I think I recall that one, and it does seem that the French officers did often favor extreme 'exotica' in many cases with their sabres. I think a lot of this was during the flamboyance of the Napoleonic period and carrying over from their earlier attraction to Oriental and exotic forces implemented into auxiliary troops in their ranks. Im thinking of the pandours and then of course the Ottoman and Mamluk influences later.

In these times military fashion was de riguer and it seems the colorful uniforms and flamboyant arms were of profound importance. I believe after the campaign in Egypt that the French were probably first to adopt the Mamluk type sabres, and the Americans (well established allies with France) soon followed, then by the British.

The turn of the century was also a time of considerable experimentation and innovation with swords, and as Le Marchant sought developing regulation patterns he considered various foreign forms before arriving at the M1796 light cavalry sabre with heavy hatchet point blade.

I had a stirrup hilt sabre with unusual cant to its hilt and a dramatically curved blade (as you describe nearly ridiculous) a sharp point and a pronounced pipe back rod on the back of the blade. This I believed to be British around late 1790s and thought that it might be one of those prototypes (?) reflecting the hybridization of European rod type back and the curvature and point of a shamshir.
I would here note that the British M1803 regulation hilt (lionhead) for infantry and flank company officers often had extremely curved blades.

In my opinion most of these extremes were more toward the constant fashion competition among officers, and while seemingly rather curious they were quite valid at the time.

Though admittedly rambling here and not much help with the question I wanted to just add some salient notes pertaining to these kinds of blades for the readers and as always, look forward to their input.

Salaams Jim and Fernando ~Is it this ... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d+french+blade
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2013, 09:21 PM

Outstanding Ibrahiim!!!!! This must have been it! How in the world did you find that??? it was 2008, eeeek! Nando, we're in trouble, what we think was two years ago is nearly 6.

As I apparently noted in the discussion, this truly dramatically curved sabre (preposterously ridiculous I would say

is likely Russian, the carry rings on the outside curve of the scabbard as was typical of Russian sabres. The hilt resembles the French ANXI as Russians based most of their arms on French models .

Thank you again Ibrahiim, researcher extraordinare. )

fernando · 14th December 2013, 12:47 PM

شكرا جزيلا ... Ibrahiim,
I have spotted that thread on my search exercize but, when i saw all those photobucket blanks i gave up the page, not scrolling down enough to visualize de real thing.
Now, this is a hell of an abnormal beast

.
The thing is, i am courting one of two sabres some local collector (?) has in his house and decided to compare their blade with the one in this Russian piece.
Definitely the ones i am flirting are not so implausible, notwithstanding my desire to have one.
I consur with Jim in what touches the exagerated blades some officers commissioned for their swords, in order to shadow those of their counterparts.
In AS ARMAS e OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, he cites the blades of some local cavalry sabres of the (XIX century) period in which, when the horseman pulled it back for a stroke, the blade point touched the opposite shoulder ... if you know what i mean.
Here attached a 1796 light cavalry example with a blade recurved by its period owner, somewhere in the country's someone collection.
The ones i am chasing appear to be more recurved, and certainly have a more centered parabola. Pity i didn't take pictures.

.

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2013, 01:46 PM

Now that is definitely an enticing anomaly Nando!!! There is a certain business like attraction in these simple cavalry hilts of 1796, and that coupled with this almost mysteriously and radically curved blade makes it a compelling sabre indeed . It is great to revisit this intriguing topic on these dramatically curved sabres and I hope we can develop some discussion looking further into examples.
As I mentioned in that earlier thread (2008) there were cavalry sabres produced by the Virginia Manufactory here in the U.S. around 1808 which had incredibly long and dramatically curved blades. It seems many of these were still around during the Civil War and the Confederate officers had the blades 'shortened' to around 36 inches!
It would certainly be interesting to discover where the idea of these incredibly long curved blades must have come from.

fernando · 14th December 2013, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As I mentioned in that earlier thread (2008)...

Ah, so long ago ... and i thought the thread was launched during the last one/two years . I forgot to admit that i am much more alzheimerized than you, young man

fernando · 14th December 2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It would certainly be interesting to discover where the idea of these incredibly long curved blades must have come from.

Yeah, it should be nice. Meanwhile my fantasy tells me that exageration came with fashion, introduced by the French in the XVIII century. You know, king size men's wigs, faces painted white with huge black spots, fancy swords ... well, the period of exhibitionism, when man was not ashamed to cross the border of orthodoxy.
I think we all agree that, the utility of those abnormaly curved sabres was more directed to street and court corridors show off than fighting capability.

.

fernando · 14th December 2013, 06:07 PM

Take this cavalry sword (1806-1834), from the book of the author quoted above.
It is called a "drag sword". Observe how punished the scabbard chape is ... from dragging the sword on the street pavements, to call attention from passing by people and, specially, call the flirtable girls to the window.
Imagine the noise produced by a couple of officers walking around Lisbon streets, dragging their swords.

-

13th December 2013, 05:40 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Testing your memory Does anyone remember a thread some (reasonable) time ago, showing a sword (sabre) with an extremely (almost implausible) curved blade ? Was it in this forum section ? Thanks for your help

13th December 2013, 09:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Outstanding Ibrahiim!!!!! This must have been it! How in the world did you find that??? it was 2008, eeeek! Nando, we're in trouble, what we think was two years ago is nearly 6. As I apparently noted in the discussion, this truly dramatically curved sabre (preposterously ridiculous I would say is likely Russian, the carry rings on the outside curve of the scabbard as was typical of Russian sabres. The hilt resembles the French ANXI as Russians based most of their arms on French models . Thank you again Ibrahiim, researcher extraordinare. ) Attached Images

14th December 2013, 12:47 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	شكرا جزيلا ... Ibrahiim, I have spotted that thread on my search exercize but, when i saw all those photobucket blanks i gave up the page, not scrolling down enough to visualize de real thing. Now, this is a hell of an abnormal beast . The thing is, i am courting one of two sabres some local collector (?) has in his house and decided to compare their blade with the one in this Russian piece. Definitely the ones i am flirting are not so implausible, notwithstanding my desire to have one. I consur with Jim in what touches the exagerated blades some officers commissioned for their swords, in order to shadow those of their counterparts. In AS ARMAS e OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, he cites the blades of some local cavalry sabres of the (XIX century) period in which, when the horseman pulled it back for a stroke, the blade point touched the opposite shoulder ... if you know what i mean. Here attached a 1796 light cavalry example with a blade recurved by its period owner, somewhere in the country's someone collection. The ones i am chasing appear to be more recurved, and certainly have a more centered parabola. Pity i didn't take pictures. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 14th December 2013 at 05:12 PM. Reason: font size

14th December 2013, 06:07 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Speaking of fashion Take this cavalry sword (1806-1834), from the book of the author quoted above. It is called a "drag sword". Observe how punished the scabbard chape is ... from dragging the sword on the street pavements, to call attention from passing by people and, specially, call the flirtable girls to the window. Imagine the noise produced by a couple of officers walking around Lisbon streets, dragging their swords. - Attached Images

13th December 2013, 05:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Nando, Yup, this is indeed a memory test ( especially for we uh, 'older folk . Over the years of course I know we have discussed sabres with extremely parabolic blades but possibly you might recall more on other features of the sword you are recalling ? Meanwhile, you know it'll drive me nuts til I find it Usually Rick is the one who seems to relocate things back to the really, really old days here.

13th December 2013, 06:03 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Extremely quick reaction Jim, thanks . Well, it wasn't sooo long ago; one ... two years . No, i don't recall most details, only the astonishingly curved blade, close to a 180º arch. European it was ... probably French !

13th December 2013, 07:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Nando, I think I recall that one, and it does seem that the French officers did often favor extreme 'exotica' in many cases with their sabres. I think a lot of this was during the flamboyance of the Napoleonic period and carrying over from their earlier attraction to Oriental and exotic forces implemented into auxiliary troops in their ranks. Im thinking of the pandours and then of course the Ottoman and Mamluk influences later. In these times military fashion was de riguer and it seems the colorful uniforms and flamboyant arms were of profound importance. I believe after the campaign in Egypt that the French were probably first to adopt the Mamluk type sabres, and the Americans (well established allies with France) soon followed, then by the British. The turn of the century was also a time of considerable experimentation and innovation with swords, and as Le Marchant sought developing regulation patterns he considered various foreign forms before arriving at the M1796 light cavalry sabre with heavy hatchet point blade. I had a stirrup hilt sabre with unusual cant to its hilt and a dramatically curved blade (as you describe nearly ridiculous) a sharp point and a pronounced pipe back rod on the back of the blade. This I believed to be British around late 1790s and thought that it might be one of those prototypes (?) reflecting the hybridization of European rod type back and the curvature and point of a shamshir. I would here note that the British M1803 regulation hilt (lionhead) for infantry and flank company officers often had extremely curved blades. In my opinion most of these extremes were more toward the constant fashion competition among officers, and while seemingly rather curious they were quite valid at the time. Though admittedly rambling here and not much help with the question I wanted to just add some salient notes pertaining to these kinds of blades for the readers and as always, look forward to their input.

14th December 2013, 01:46 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Now that is definitely an enticing anomaly Nando!!! There is a certain business like attraction in these simple cavalry hilts of 1796, and that coupled with this almost mysteriously and radically curved blade makes it a compelling sabre indeed . It is great to revisit this intriguing topic on these dramatically curved sabres and I hope we can develop some discussion looking further into examples. As I mentioned in that earlier thread (2008) there were cavalry sabres produced by the Virginia Manufactory here in the U.S. around 1808 which had incredibly long and dramatically curved blades. It seems many of these were still around during the Civil War and the Confederate officers had the blades 'shortened' to around 36 inches! It would certainly be interesting to discover where the idea of these incredibly long curved blades must have come from.