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Old 7th October 2013, 07:53 PM   #1
sirek
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Default floating melati?

I know the “name game” is being criticized here, but because I can’t find anything about this pamor, I want to try it here, hoping that someone knows something.
(a friend thought it was something with floating melati flowers)
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Old 7th October 2013, 08:06 PM   #2
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Hi Sirek,

Based on the book "Pamoratlas", I would say it is pamor semanggi (clover).

According to the description this pattern increases one's reputation and some people feel this pamor increases one's luck owing to the presence of four-leaved clovers.

This is all from the Pamoratlas and I'm afraid I don't know anything about this pamor myself.
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Old 7th October 2013, 09:14 PM   #3
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Hello Yuuzan
Semanggi did cross my mind, but had my doubts because the shape looks more like a Maltese cross (IMHO)

(image from the web: pamor Semanggi)
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Last edited by sirek : 7th October 2013 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 7th October 2013, 10:08 PM   #4
A. G. Maisey
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I have not seen the "Pamor Atlas", I do not know who wrote it, I do not know what the sources for the information contained therein were.

I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII).

I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi).

In Javanese the word "semanggi" is the name of a herb that has three leaves, not four, and is used in food ; however in Indonesian the word "semanggi" translates as "clover".
It is also the name of a vegetable dish that uses a lot of spice.
It is also the name of a kampung in Solo.

I'm guessing here, but I feel that whoever coined the term "Semanggi" to describe this or another pamor, grabbed the nearest Indonesian dictionary to find a suitable term.
However, in Jawa, pamor names are correctly given in Javanese, not Indonesian.
A Malay name for a pamor can be acceptable when that pamor is a Malay pamor, and Indonesian is based on a form of Malay as it is spoken in Southern Sumatera.
But this pamor we're talking about comes from Madura, so it should have either a Madurese name, or a Javanese name, not an Indonesian or Malay name.

The variation between the name that may, or may not be able to be given to this pamor under discussion, according to the Pamor Atlas, and the name that I was given for it by an Empu of the Karaton Susuhunan in Surakarta, is just one of the reasons why I feel that when we seek names for things that we cannot understand we need to be very careful in respect of the name that we eventually accept as correct.

Technically this is a surface manipulated pamor that has been made in a similar way to udan mas. It is a reversal of the well-known Surakarta pamor "X", the pamor that in its current application recognises Pakubuwana X as an iconic figure, and in its original application was an early 20th century Karaton pamor.

EDIT

While I was writing the above the images of "pamor semanggi" were posted.

I personally regard the upper image as one of the variations of udan mas, and I cannot see the lower image clearly enough to guess at what it might be --- if I even have a name for it.

FURTHER EDIT

Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa?

I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 7th October 2013 at 10:14 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 8th October 2013, 12:05 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa?

I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much.


Yes, that was precisely my thought as well. While the concept of the lucky four-leaf clover does extend itself beyond the Emerald Isle i do not believe it is part of the cultures of the Indonesian archipelago.
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Old 8th October 2013, 03:09 AM   #6
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What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?
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Old 8th October 2013, 09:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?

Pamor Atlas is a self publishing book (2006) by Ing E.A.N. Van Veenedaal. Is written all in german language so impossible for me to understand. Is a list of "not clear" pics of pamors. I have this book only because i like to have all (nice or bad) books, articles, etc about keris
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Old 8th October 2013, 10:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?


The Pamoratlas was published in 2006 by E.A.N. van Veenendaal and updated in 2011. It is a Dutch publication and has never been translated (to my knowledge). Some information from the book's introduction:

- Author became hooked on keris when his dad brought him one in 1951.
- Became a collector and was especially fascinated by pamor patterns.
- Spent 4 to 5 months in Southeast Asia every year for the 15 years prior to 2006.
- Visited museums, collectors, remaining empu, and other people with knowledge on the subject.
- Extends his thanks to Krt. Sukoyo Dipuro (Surabaya) and Bambang Harsrinuksmo (Jakarta) for their contributions.

The book classifies pamor patterns by category, e.g. leaf shapes, angular shapes, spherical, etc. Each entry contains a small amount of information on the pamor's meaning and attributes, whether it is mlumah, rekan and/or tiban and a small comparison to similar pamor patterns. These are accompanied by schematic drawings and/or photos.

As for its credibility, I hesitate to give a strong opinion on that as I feel my own knowledge on the subject is far from adequate. Personally, I find it useful to at least look up a name for a pattern I am unfamiliar with. As far as I can tell, the book does correctly classify patterns such as uler lulut, lar gansir, udan mas, etc. In other words, to my knowledge, the book generally ascribes the generally accepted name to the corresponding pamor pattern. It also includes local variations (Madurese, Balinese, East Javanese, etc. where known). As to the esoteric meanings of the patterns, I dare not venture to say how accurate the provided information is.

As for pamor semanggi: The book does not make any sort of distinction between new and old pamor patterns.
Considering its a very young pattern, could it be that it acquired a name in Bahasa Indonesia in order to appeal to more potential buyers?

Whatever the case may be, I do find it an attractive pattern. It's good to see new patterns can still be made in the modern era and that the keris is alive and well in today's Indonesia.
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Old 8th October 2013, 10:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
Pamor Atlas is a self publishing book (2006) by Ing E.A.N. Van Veenedaal. Is written all in german language so impossible for me to understand. Is a list of "not clear" pics of pamors. I have this book only because i like to have all (nice or bad) books, articles, etc about keris


Please don't go holiday in the Netherlands and tell people there they speak German They might give you the evil eye!

Joking aside, German and Dutch are often mixed up but the Pamoratlas is written in Dutch.

I have a copied version of the book myself and the quality of the pictures is not that good. I always suspected this was due to the quality of the copies but it seems the source material's quality leaves something to be desired.
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Old 8th October 2013, 06:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuzan
Please don't go holiday in the Netherlands and tell people there they speak German They might give you the evil eye!

Joking aside, German and Dutch are often mixed up but the Pamoratlas is written in Dutch.

I have a copied version of the book myself and the quality of the pictures is not that good. I always suspected this was due to the quality of the copies but it seems the source material's quality leaves something to be desired.

Sorry you are right is not German ...but if they give me the devil eye i surely will be very happy
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Old 8th October 2013, 07:05 PM   #11
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I know that the pamor is also familiar by the name of Gebagan Agal. Djajasukatgo III (1861-1893) made such pamor for PB IX.
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Old 8th October 2013, 07:30 PM   #12
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There is another plublication from van Veenendaal I am aware of, "Krisgrepen en Scheden uit Bali en Lombok", in my opinion a very good booklet. I have had email contact once with him and it seems that he have a very good knowledge about the balinese culture. So far I know he was married with a woman from Indonesia which is sadly gone. And it is true that he is stays every year for month in Indonesia.
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Old 8th October 2013, 10:08 PM   #13
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I would like copies of both his booklets of possible...whatever the language.

I can not name that Pamor, but I can tell you how it is forged.

Ric
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Old 9th October 2013, 12:22 AM   #14
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Thank you for that information Max.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would advise the source for your information, that is from what book, or person did you learn that the pamor motif shown by Sirek was made by Jayasukadgo III for PB IX.
If possible a picture of the pamor that was made by Jayasukadgo III would be equally appreciated.
Thank you.
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Old 9th October 2013, 03:28 AM   #15
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Thank you Marco and Yuuzan for your information in respect of the Pamoratlas.
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Old 9th October 2013, 11:03 AM   #16
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I had the pleasure to meet Mr. Van Veenendaal a few times personally. His collection is very impressive and he has a great knowledge about keris.
Mr. Van Veenendaal is a member of the welknown studygroup the keris founded by the late G.J.F.J. Tammens.

When i was a guest at Mr. Van Veenendaal he was busy wrighting these two works.
For the statement in this discussion, when you have an original copy of his work the pictures are good. It was published in a limited edition for a happy few. I know that copys where made that ended on auction sites.
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Old 9th October 2013, 12:09 PM   #17
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Yuuzan

Considering its a very young pattern, could it be that it acquired a name in Bahasa Indonesia in order to appeal to more potential buyers?

I know this as a recent pamor, and I was told it was recent pamor by an mpu of the Karaton Susuhunan, but Max has told us that it was in fact made by an mpu of the Karaton Susuhunan prior to 1900.

This is the reason I would like to see a picture of what it was that Jayasukadgo III made.

So, at the moment we don't really know if this pamor is recent, or had been made a long time ago.

The name "Gebagan Agal" can be understood as "rough bunch", I think it is ngoko, not krama, and this does seem a rather peculiar name to be foisted onto a pamor made by a Karaton mpu.

But still --- stranger things have happened.

Generally speaking whenever we see a keris related name for pamor, or anything else, that is in Indonesian or Malay it indicates that we are looking at or talking about something that is recent, and not something from the past.

I doubt that the reason is because of market appeal, but rather because the people who coined the name were not familiar with either the Javanese language, or with tradition.
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Old 9th October 2013, 07:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk
I had the pleasure to meet Mr. Van Veenendaal a few times personally. His collection is very impressive and he has a great knowledge about keris.
Mr. Van Veenendaal is a member of the welknown studygroup the keris founded by the late G.J.F.J. Tammens.

When i was a guest at Mr. Van Veenendaal he was busy wrighting these two works.
For the statement in this discussion, when you have an original copy of his work the pictures are good. It was published in a limited edition for a happy few. I know that copys where made that ended on auction sites.


I have a copy of these 2 booklets and find them very useful references in spite of the pics quality (especially the Pamoratlas) and the Dutch language barrier for me. Emile did a thorough work for documenting and classifying the various types of pamor patterns and Balinese hilts so he deserves our congratulations and thanks.
Regards
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Old 10th October 2013, 07:09 PM   #19
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If Mr. Van Veenendaal is willing to allow a reprint I will facilitate the endeavor.

Ric
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Old 11th October 2013, 06:17 PM   #20
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All your comments are appreciated, many thanks!

While I read them, I think there is still an interest in a pamor-thread

Quote:
originally posted by:A. G. Maisey
I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII).
I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi)


IMHO this kind of information is unique and important and could make a positive contribution for a pamor- thread, because it is not found in the existing books or mighty Google.( (in spite of their imperfections I guess for many still the largest/only source of information)

I hope someday someone picked this up, so that this type of information will not be lost in the future.

Last edited by sirek : 11th October 2013 at 06:32 PM.
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