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Old 26th November 2011, 05:09 AM   #1
kahnjar1
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Default MINIATURE KNIVES/TRAVELLERS SAMPLES FOR COMMENT

Believed to be Traveller's selling sample knives from the early 20th Century. These knives all have slab sided bone grips and are in various eastern knife styles.
The quality of the workmanship is rather good and the steel blades hold a good edge.
Comments and information please.
Regards Stuart
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Old 26th November 2011, 10:09 AM   #2
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Hi Stuard
amazing and funny

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Old 26th November 2011, 02:45 PM   #3
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Hi Stu,
My impression is that they're too crude to be sales samples .
Morelike souvenirs maybe .
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Old 26th November 2011, 10:06 PM   #4
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I hope I am wrong stu, but arent these modern Pakistani or Indian items?

There larger brothers of identical workmanship I always dismiss as fakes when they turn up in English auctions ovrr the last 20 yrars or so.

Perhaps I am mistaken? Not realy my field but just my obsevation of materials,workmanship & style.

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Old 26th November 2011, 10:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
I hope I am wrong stu, but arent these modern Pakistani or Indian items?

There larger brothers of identical workmanship I always dismiss as fakes when they turn up in English auctions ovrr the last 20 yrars or so.

Perhaps I am mistaken? Not realy my field but just my obsevation of materials,workmanship & style.

Spiral

Possible, but they appear of much better quality than those in advert herewith, which was kindly sent to me by Gene (Atlantia). All I can say is that the Gentleman who had them for "many years", had always believed that they were travellers samples.
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Old 26th November 2011, 10:54 PM   #6
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Interesting, ive never seen ones like Genes shown you in what I guess is a world wide arms catalouge? {I wonder how many dealers on this forum have flogged..... woops I better not say that..... might upset far to many people.}

But I have seen dozens of larger versians of what look like identical pieces to your minatue examples. look at the rivets, the poor shape of blades, course camel or buffalo bone grips, crude semi Persian revival carving etc.

Belief is a powerfull thing, its probably been responsible for more problems & death in the world than even greed has.

But we all our own.....right or wrong. even me.....

I realy dont know with definity about these, but know how they look to me.But thats just my belief so it could be wrong.

Spiral
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Old 26th November 2011, 11:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Interesting, ive never seen ones like Genes shown you in what I guess is a world wide arms catalouge? {I wonder how many dealers on this forum have flogged..... woops I better not say that..... might upset far to many people.}

But I have seen dozens of larger versians of what look like identical pieces to your minatue examples. look at the rivets, the poor shape of blades, course camel or buffalo bone grips, crude semi Persian revival carving etc.

Belief is a powerfull thing, its probably been responsible for more problems & death in the world than even greed has.

But we all our own.....right or wrong. even me.....

I realy dont know with definity about these, but know how they look to me.But thats just my belief so it could be wrong.

Spiral

Yes WWA from a 2001 issue I believe. I personally don't have a clue on the ones I have , and I should add, on behalf of, so am really trying to get some "accurate" information for the owner.
Stu
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Old 28th November 2011, 11:58 AM   #8
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Hi Stu

Honestly these mini knives are nice but they look too fresh to me to be older than the later half of the 20th century. I figure 1985-2000. There is no oxidation present on the blades the bone looks freshly cut. They are just a good quality modern set of mini knives to me.
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Old 28th November 2011, 10:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Hi Stu

Honestly these mini knives are nice but they look too fresh to me to be older than the later half of the 20th century. I figure 1985-2000. There is no oxidation present on the blades the bone looks freshly cut. They are just a good quality modern set of mini knives to me.

Hi Lew,
The flash has made the bone look quite clean but in fact it is ingrained with dirt/colouration. The blades have been cleaned as is often the case when non collectors own them, so any patina which should be there is gone. The family from which they came has (according to them) owned them since the 1950s and they say they were not new then. Can only go with the provenance given.
Stu
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Old 28th November 2011, 10:06 PM   #10
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Hi Stu,
Facinating topic!!! I think the guy to find on this subject is Roger Evans ("The Plug Bayonet", R.D.C.Evans).
Years ago he was THE authority on bayonets and wrote the column "Cold Steel" in several magazines on arms I believe. I recall he sold off all his bayonets and went into the study of miniature weapons, and I recall thinking how wonderfully bizarre and esoteric!!!!
He must have written something on them by now.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 29th November 2011, 12:04 AM   #11
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Thanks Jim. It's amazing what turns up in NZ as we are so far away from everything here. These, though not "my thing", are rather interesting, and I had hoped that the story given to me was, at least in part, correct. Don't quite know what this style of Travellers samples (if that is what they are) would be doing in this part of the world, as I can not see anyone ordering from them here. Sufficient to say that they would make an interesting addition to the collection of someone who is interested in Islamic knives.
Regards Stu
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Old 29th November 2011, 07:58 PM   #12
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Hi Stu,
It really is amazing what turns up down there!!!
I have always thought miniatures in general were fascinating, seeing such craftsmanship in such small scale. Actually it seems like living in a space smaller than most rooms in houses in this RV, it would be ideal to collect these since I have no place to put the full size ones
It seems like over the years a lot of times those Indonesian and Southeast Asian panoplies are found mounted on plaques. I have a book someplace on miniature arms from years ago, as I say pretty esoteric, and amazing.

I do know that creating these arms in lilliputian size was serious business and created as novelties often for royals and dignitaries usually as displays of craftsmanship by artisans. I think that was the primary purpose rather than as sales samples, and they were intended to impress and delight.

I was hoping for some other entries from readers world out there, but aint holdin my breath !!

All the best,
Jim
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Old 29th November 2011, 08:19 PM   #13
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Hi
These are certainly World Wide Arms products. I have an identical set which I bought for my son over 15 years ago. They looked old and were reasonable quality , but copuld well have been made in India in recent times. However just because they were sold by WWA it does not mean they are fake.. WWA have turned some pretty fantastic pieces of Indo Persian gear over the last 40 years ... in the early days Les Rawlinson was always over in India buying up armouries .
On another point , I am a friend of Roger Evans .. the only miniatures he is interested in are miniaure bayonets , so I dont think he will be much help here .
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Old 29th November 2011, 08:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
Hi
These are certainly World Wide Arms products. I have an identical set which I bought for my son over 15 years ago. They looked old and were reasonable quality , but copuld well have been made in India in recent times. However just because they were sold by WWA it does not mean they are fake.. WWA have turned some pretty fantastic pieces of Indo Persian gear over the last 40 years ... in the early days Les Rawlinson was always over in India buying up armouries .
On another point , I am a friend of Roger Evans .. the only miniatures he is interested in are miniaure bayonets , so I dont think he will be much help here .


You're right he was interested in bayonets primarily and I had forgotten that detail. Its been a while since talking with him so please send my best regards. His work on "The Plug Bayonet" was outstanding as were his "Cold Steel" articles which I read for many years before becoming acquainted with him.
What is key in his work is the pertinant details which often relate to other fields of arms. Despite the focus on bayonets, his attention to collective detail often offers highly relevant clues to other areas.

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 29th November 2011, 08:48 PM   #15
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Hi Stu.
in France, ... in the past ... when artisans want to get the title of "master",
they must prepare a project, in their field, and in straight line with their specialty

the project achievement will be called; "chef-d'oeuvre"
either in English; "masterpiece"
but I dunno if the meaning it's the same ?

any way, it's a realization at a scale reduced ...
the better of the best possible, that the candidate at this title, may realize,
then it will be judged by his "pairs" (committee of former masters)
who will decide to "receive, master" or not the candidate

may be your knifes collection could be, a prove from a craftsmanship of a "master" ?
or similar ?

this collection seems from a very good "facture" (workmanship )


rgds

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Old 29th November 2011, 11:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
You're right he was interested in bayonets primarily and I had forgotten that detail. Its been a while since talking with him so please send my best regards. His work on "The Plug Bayonet" was outstanding as were his "Cold Steel" articles which I read for many years before becoming acquainted with him.
What is key in his work is the pertinant details which often relate to other fields of arms. Despite the focus on bayonets, his attention to collective detail often offers highly relevant clues to other areas.

All best regards,
Jim

You are absolutely right , he is a real academic , his field ( forgive the pun ) was agronomy . He always applies a rigorous approach to his research. I will pass on your regards , he has not been well recently .
Regards
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Old 30th November 2011, 04:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi Stu.
in France, ... in the past ... when artisans want to get the title of "master",
they must prepare a project, in their field, and in straight line with their specialty

the project achievement will be called; "chef-d'oeuvre"
either in English; "masterpiece"
but I dunno if the meaning it's the same ?

any way, it's a realization at a scale reduced ...
the better of the best possible, that the candidate at this title, may realize,
then it will be judged by his "pairs" (committee of former masters)
who will decide to "receive, master" or not the candidate

may be your knifes collection could be, a prove from a craftsmanship of a "master" ?
or similar ?

this collection seems from a very good "facture" (workmanship )


rgds

+

Dom

Yes Dom you are right. I remember items of furniture were also made by apprentices to the master, as an example of their ability to produce worthy items. With the provenance I have (assuming it is correct) these knives COULD also be as you have suggested.
Regards Stu
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Old 30th November 2011, 10:48 AM   #18
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Further to my comments that these were being sold by World Wide Arms at least 15 years ago , I contacted my son and he still had the set I bought for him 15 years ago and he has sent me a picture of the group, which to all intents is the same as the set under discussion. To reiterate , just because they were sold by WWA it does not mean they are fake, as WWA have been responsible for importing some unusual and rare items in the past ( though some of their current stuff is recently made Indian / Chinese copies ) . But it does mean that there are many such sets around .
One of the best things World Wide Arms had on offer which I remember from the early 1980s was a complete set of elephant armour mounted on a wicker 'elephant' in their top floor storeroom next to Weller & Dufty's in Birmingham .It was 10,000 ... how I now wish I had bought it when I realise how much the Royal Armouries paid for theirs ! Though in those days I bought a 3 bed semi for only 2 grand more and my wife oddly enough preferred a house to an armoured elephant ! Ah well .
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Old 30th November 2011, 12:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
Further to my comments that these were being sold by World Wide Arms at least 15 years ago , I contacted my son and he still had the set I bought for him 15 years ago and he has sent me a picture of the group, which to all intents is the same as the set under discussion. To reiterate , just because they were sold by WWA it does not mean they are fake, as WWA have been responsible for importing some unusual and rare items in the past ( though some of their current stuff is recently made Indian / Chinese copies ) . .


By 1990 at the latest, {Lets be genourous say 20 years ago} they were having made, fake 1917 marked kukri British army Issue stamped kukri that unscroupulous dealers still buy & use to con naive or inexpierienced collectors.

There still making & selling them today. I`d guess when the real stuff ran out 30 years ago the fakes came in wholesale.

Spiral
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Old 30th November 2011, 02:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
By 1990 at the latest, {Lets be genourous say 20 years ago} they were having made, fake 1917 marked kukri British army Issue stamped kukri that unscroupulous dealers still buy & use to con naive or inexpierienced collectors.

There still making & selling them today. I`d guess when the real stuff ran out 30 years ago the fakes came in wholesale.

Spiral


There is a trick to telling fake from real in WWA descriptions. They choose their words very carefully eg a Kukri of the British Army PATTERN / STYLE / TYPE etc .. ie they dont say this is a British Army kukri .
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Old 30th November 2011, 03:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
There is a trick to telling fake from real in WWA descriptions. They choose their words very carefully eg a Kukri of the British Army PATTERN / STYLE / TYPE etc .. ie they dont say this is a British Army kukri .


I know that & so do you, the thousands of naive & inexpierienced people who dont realise that "trick" get ripped of. {particularily when the word pattern is used, {Which of course why its the is the term they usualy use.}

Most re.sellers also forget to mention it of course!

Also the term pattern can be very subjective in British army weapons, after all many swords etc are generaly refered to as 1796 pattern etc.

But we both know all this of couse......

Cheers,
Spiral
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