"Ratio" of weapons of "civilian" S.Chinese... ?

KuKulzA28 · 12th January 2011, 01:33 AM

I was wondering the other day, what the ratios were of the weapons amongst the civilians in Southern China / Taiwan? The time period would be around 1600-1800... a period of continued Southern Chinese seafaring, piracy, and colonizing of Taiwan and other SE Asian islands...

Classic Chinese weapons of the time can be roughly divided into the Staff, Spear, Dao, Jian, Bows/Crossbows, and Guns. There were different length staves for different heights and styles of martial arts. Spearheads varied greatly, though the tradition somewhat leaf-shaped form is pretty common throughout the world. Dao could be divided into sabers (which can be further divided) and big knives (such as baat jaam do), as well as two-handed choppers and pole-arms. Jian could be short, long, ring-pommeled villager swords, or even high-class "scholar's swords". Bows... did Chinese still used their traditional bow at this time or did the Manchurian bow already displace the native one? I know in Taiwan they had bows, but not sure which style... Crossbows seem to have been common in the military - but amongst civilians? Firearms were definitely known, and used by the military in the North, and used by frontiersmen, pirates, and traded to aborigines - but how common were they? Seems like pirates had great stores of them... And of course other weapons like maces, axes, chain-whips, etc. were probably rarer than swords right? They don't seem to be as glorified or common as the other weapons.

I'm just trying to get an idea of what the dispersal of weapons was like for non-military men of the day. The staff would've been a common civilian weapon, and the spear a common weapon overall... What about the dao and jian? Since they're swords, probably less common, yes? What about Bows, crossbows, and firearms?

My guess is that a variety of staves, spears, polearms, and long knives were probably the most common, followed by swords, bows, and guns, and then all the other more exotic stuff. But truthfully I am limited of knowledge, and I am just guessing based on logic.

If any of the experts here can help shed some light on this matter, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Rick · 12th January 2011, 01:50 AM

Fortunately we have no 'Experts' here; only Students .

KuKulzA28 · 12th January 2011, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Fortunately we have no 'Experts' here; only Students .

Well, the much more learned students then, cause I'm definitely not one of them

fearn · 12th January 2011, 05:03 AM

Wasn't the White Lotus Rebellion around 1800? That could give you one reference point, I think.

As for ratios, outside of armory records, I'm not sure where you'd get any of that information. After all, something that's a staff one day would be a stick, flail, or spear the next, and what does it get counted under?

I suspect an approximate rule is that the shorter the (metal) blade, the more there were of them, just because metal was relatively uncommon, and over-sized swords and such were the province of the great generals and Imperial Palace.

The other two categories are the improvised weapons, such as hoes and rakes, the "weapons of the gods" (aka whatever villagers could make out of their bamboo stands when they got sufficiently annoyed), and the exotic weapons used by the martial artists, particularly when they were doing things like guarding caravans or collecting taxes. The exotic weapons were a bit of a trademark, and if they got famous, they let people know not to mess with the bearer. But that only worked if they were rare too.

Additionally, the Korean Muyedobotongji (available from in a book) shows the weapons that the Chinese taught the Koreans to repel the Japanese invasion. It's handy, because you can get some idea of the proportions of their basic 12-man squad.

Hope this helps.

F

KuKulzA28 · 12th January 2011, 08:34 PM

Thanks fearn, I'll look into those... and if anyone else has input, I'm all eyes/ears

I remember the Mandarin Duck formation from General Qi Jiguang... Supposed to be inspired by southern ethnicities and their method of warfare. It seems to have consisted of 12 people, 11 in combat, and 10 main combatants.

1 squad leader w/ flag
2 sabers and rattan shields
2 multiple tip spears
4 long spears
2 tridents
1 cook/porter

Looks like 1 saber to 4 spears (of varying types).
But that sheds no light on the use of baat jaam do / butterfly swords, bows, and firearms amongst the southern Chinese. the sword to spear ratio of 1:4 is probably about right, maybe the ratio was even greater like 1:10 or something.

fearn · 13th January 2011, 06:17 AM

Yes, I'm talking about the mandarin duck formation. It's certainly a place to start. I'd also add that the multiple tip spear (nangseon) isn't exactly a spear, and they worked in concert with the swordsmen in a rather cool way.

I think there's a book out there about Chinese archery (Amazon Link) that might be useful as well.

Best,

F

aiontay · 14th January 2011, 12:56 AM

Given that historically the Chinese relied on local militias well in to the 1800s, I'm not so sure that there was a particularly clear divide between civilian and military weapons, particularly in Taiwan, especially in the 1600-1700 time frame.

One possible approach would be to do an analysis of the weapons taught in the various southern traditional martial arts. I realize there are some problems with that approach, but maybe the percentages of say, staff and hoe forms in Choy Lay Fut versus the number of broadsword forms might give you some insight.

I'd also be inclined to think that Taiwan might be a bit of an outlier from the rest of South China, and while it might be a more "backward" area it might therefore been better armed. I don't know if you've read "Rebels and Revolutionaries in Northern China". I think that is the title. I bought it years ago while I was living in Taiwan and subsequently loaned it to a guy and never got it back. Anyway it was a study of the dynamics of banditry, rebellion and revolution in 3 northern Chinese provinces in the 19th and 20th Centuries. These provinces, I forget the exact three, had a long tradition of unrest and banditry. I remember a couple of points in the book that might be relevant. One, although he did not elaborate on this point, the author did note that the "rebellious" reputation of these provinces was similar to Taiwan's and the second was although they were extremely poor provinces the inhabitants were very well armed. In fact, the peasants were criticized by government officials for their propensity to buy guns and swords rather than invest in agricultural improvements. Of course, the author explained what this was not completely irrational behavior on the peasants' part, but the main idea here is just because the civilians may not have been wealthy, it doesn't mean didn't buy good weapons if they could.

KuKulzA28 · 14th January 2011, 05:38 AM

Good points!

Was one of those provinces Shandong? That place was historically full of banditry and violence, and the region has birthed many effective fighting styles - such as Mantis Boxing. The current day combat-effectiveness of many of those practitioners is debatable, but that's due to many factors and an entirely different discussion. But your point is pretty intriguing. Do you have an ISBN or a specific vendor you know that I can get the book from? If not I'll search.

Taiwan was definitely a pretty violent "frontier" for centuries... I know that many Taiwanese were better-armed compared to counterparts in more "peaceful" (relatively) parts of China... but that was probably more out of necessity than cultural preference. Weapons over agricultural improvements, eh? No doubt you need to to survive before you can thrive.

aiontay · 14th January 2011, 12:52 PM

I don't think Shandong was one of the provinces, although it may have gotten some mention. I bought that book over twenty years ago and loaned it out probably over ten years ago, so I would have to look it up myself. Sorry.

I do have "The White Rajahs of Sarawak" by Robert Payne, which likely isn't the most scholarly work on the Brookes, but was looking through it last night specifically for any details about the Chinese rebellion against James Brooke. It mentions the Chinese were buying guns from gun runners and they were heavily armed with spears and muskets during the fighting, so it looks like in frontier conditions, firearms were pretty popular with Chinese civilians.

Bill M · 14th January 2011, 02:37 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_Xiao...Duck_Formation

Neil · 14th January 2011, 03:12 PM

I just looked up "Rebels and Revolutionaries in Northern China" on Amazon and it was very reasonably priced. I was also recommended "Rebellion and Its Enemies in Late Imperial China: Militarization and Social Structure, 1796-1864" by Philip Kuhn in relation to the use of village militias in warfare. That is also available on Amazon. I'm hoping both of these will help enhance my studies in 19th century Chinese swords.

KuKulzA28 · 14th January 2011, 04:33 PM

Thanks for all the pointers so far! I'll check those books out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

I'm hoping both of these will help enhance my studies in 19th century Chinese swords.

And I'm hoping these'll help me know more about my ancestors! Thanks for contributing to this thread.

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 04:38 AM

I read a book with multiple examples of Chinese crossbows from said period, a great many, perhaps a majority were cited as civilian weapons, especially "stone bows" that shoot bullets, not arrows, and have a scooped out stock that looks like an old-school girls' bicycle. They were cited as hunting weapons, especially for birds.

KuKulzA28 · 20th March 2011, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I read a book with multiple examples of Chinese crossbows from said period, a great many, perhaps a majority were cited as civilian weapons, especially "stone bows" that shoot bullets, not arrows, and have a scooped out stock that looks like an old-school girls' bicycle. They were cited as hunting weapons, especially for birds.

You know, I've seen one or two for sale on antique weapon sites, but in all my life I have seen very few... not sure what happened to all the crossbows. I know they were used up to the Republican Era in China, and bows, crossbows, and firearms were somewhat common in Taiwan (where people, Han and Aboriginal, tended to invested a LOT in weaponry)...

I wonder, can anyone here show off Chinese crossbows?

Perhaps it's too rare an item these days... ?

What would they have done with all of them?
Throw them out? Break them down?

yuanzhumin · 24th March 2011, 09:56 AM

Hello Kukulza,

Here are all the infos I have on the Taiwanese crossbows:

- See Material Culture of the formosan Aborigines , by Chen chi-lu.
PP152 153 154
To sum up what's in the book: Crossbow is found in Formosa only among the Tsou and Saisiat tribes; no more in use among Formosan tribes; it is a mainland culture trait ; introduced by Chinese settlers and diffused to the mountain tribes; in general, the crossbow appear to be a combination of bow and blowgun, what is confirmed by the facts that crossbows darts were often used with poisoned tipped - something that didn't diffuse into Taiwan together with the crossbow
See the drawing from Chen chi-lu of a Saisiat crossbow in the collections of the Nat. Taiwan Univ.

- my own info:
From my collection:
http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=108
From my memory, i have seen few years ago aboriginal hunters -- poachers, I would say to be more exact :-) -- equipped with a crossbow. It was in central Taiwan (Alishan area) but I don't remember if they were Bunun or Tsou. (Kukulza, i'm listening now to the last Matzka CD!)

Best

Nicolas

KuKulzA28 · 24th March 2011, 06:26 PM

Wow cool! I did not know that the Saisiyat and Tsou adopted the crossbow... I do remember hearing of aboriginal hunter susing bows and maybe even crossbows in the Alishan area (my Ah-gong lives close-by in Chia-yi)... and I think part of that is the tight regulation on firearms.

Matzka eh? Nice! I haven't listened to them too much, but I am gradually getting more into Taiwanese music - afterall, that is my peoples homeland and culture!

12th January 2011, 01:33 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	"Ratio" of weapons of "civilian" S.Chinese... ? I was wondering the other day, what the ratios were of the weapons amongst the civilians in Southern China / Taiwan? The time period would be around 1600-1800... a period of continued Southern Chinese seafaring, piracy, and colonizing of Taiwan and other SE Asian islands... Classic Chinese weapons of the time can be roughly divided into the Staff, Spear, Dao, Jian, Bows/Crossbows, and Guns. There were different length staves for different heights and styles of martial arts. Spearheads varied greatly, though the tradition somewhat leaf-shaped form is pretty common throughout the world. Dao could be divided into sabers (which can be further divided) and big knives (such as baat jaam do), as well as two-handed choppers and pole-arms. Jian could be short, long, ring-pommeled villager swords, or even high-class "scholar's swords". Bows... did Chinese still used their traditional bow at this time or did the Manchurian bow already displace the native one? I know in Taiwan they had bows, but not sure which style... Crossbows seem to have been common in the military - but amongst civilians? Firearms were definitely known, and used by the military in the North, and used by frontiersmen, pirates, and traded to aborigines - but how common were they? Seems like pirates had great stores of them... And of course other weapons like maces, axes, chain-whips, etc. were probably rarer than swords right? They don't seem to be as glorified or common as the other weapons. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the dispersal of weapons was like for non-military men of the day. The staff would've been a common civilian weapon, and the spear a common weapon overall... What about the dao and jian? Since they're swords, probably less common, yes? What about Bows, crossbows, and firearms? My guess is that a variety of staves, spears, polearms, and long knives were probably the most common, followed by swords, bows, and guns, and then all the other more exotic stuff. But truthfully I am limited of knowledge, and I am just guessing based on logic. If any of the experts here can help shed some light on this matter, I'd greatly appreciate it.

12th January 2011, 08:34 PM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks fearn, I'll look into those... and if anyone else has input, I'm all eyes/ears I remember the Mandarin Duck formation from General Qi Jiguang... Supposed to be inspired by southern ethnicities and their method of warfare. It seems to have consisted of 12 people, 11 in combat, and 10 main combatants. 1 squad leader w/ flag 2 sabers and rattan shields 2 multiple tip spears 4 long spears 2 tridents 1 cook/porter Looks like 1 saber to 4 spears (of varying types). But that sheds no light on the use of baat jaam do / butterfly swords, bows, and firearms amongst the southern Chinese. the sword to spear ratio of 1:4 is probably about right, maybe the ratio was even greater like 1:10 or something.

24th March 2011, 09:56 AM	#15
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hello Kukulza, Here are all the infos I have on the Taiwanese crossbows: - See Material Culture of the formosan Aborigines , by Chen chi-lu. PP152 153 154 To sum up what's in the book: Crossbow is found in Formosa only among the Tsou and Saisiat tribes; no more in use among Formosan tribes; it is a mainland culture trait ; introduced by Chinese settlers and diffused to the mountain tribes; in general, the crossbow appear to be a combination of bow and blowgun, what is confirmed by the facts that crossbows darts were often used with poisoned tipped - something that didn't diffuse into Taiwan together with the crossbow See the drawing from Chen chi-lu of a Saisiat crossbow in the collections of the Nat. Taiwan Univ. - my own info: From my collection: http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=108 From my memory, i have seen few years ago aboriginal hunters -- poachers, I would say to be more exact :-) -- equipped with a crossbow. It was in central Taiwan (Alishan area) but I don't remember if they were Bunun or Tsou. (Kukulza, i'm listening now to the last Matzka CD!) Best Nicolas Attached Images

12th January 2011, 01:50 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Fortunately we have no 'Experts' here; only Students .

12th January 2011, 05:03 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Wasn't the White Lotus Rebellion around 1800? That could give you one reference point, I think. As for ratios, outside of armory records, I'm not sure where you'd get any of that information. After all, something that's a staff one day would be a stick, flail, or spear the next, and what does it get counted under? I suspect an approximate rule is that the shorter the (metal) blade, the more there were of them, just because metal was relatively uncommon, and over-sized swords and such were the province of the great generals and Imperial Palace. The other two categories are the improvised weapons, such as hoes and rakes, the "weapons of the gods" (aka whatever villagers could make out of their bamboo stands when they got sufficiently annoyed), and the exotic weapons used by the martial artists, particularly when they were doing things like guarding caravans or collecting taxes. The exotic weapons were a bit of a trademark, and if they got famous, they let people know not to mess with the bearer. But that only worked if they were rare too. Additionally, the Korean Muyedobotongji (available from in a book) shows the weapons that the Chinese taught the Koreans to repel the Japanese invasion. It's handy, because you can get some idea of the proportions of their basic 12-man squad. Hope this helps. F

13th January 2011, 06:17 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Yes, I'm talking about the mandarin duck formation. It's certainly a place to start. I'd also add that the multiple tip spear (nangseon) isn't exactly a spear, and they worked in concert with the swordsmen in a rather cool way. I think there's a book out there about Chinese archery (Amazon Link) that might be useful as well. Best, F

14th January 2011, 12:56 AM	#7
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Given that historically the Chinese relied on local militias well in to the 1800s, I'm not so sure that there was a particularly clear divide between civilian and military weapons, particularly in Taiwan, especially in the 1600-1700 time frame. One possible approach would be to do an analysis of the weapons taught in the various southern traditional martial arts. I realize there are some problems with that approach, but maybe the percentages of say, staff and hoe forms in Choy Lay Fut versus the number of broadsword forms might give you some insight. I'd also be inclined to think that Taiwan might be a bit of an outlier from the rest of South China, and while it might be a more "backward" area it might therefore been better armed. I don't know if you've read "Rebels and Revolutionaries in Northern China". I think that is the title. I bought it years ago while I was living in Taiwan and subsequently loaned it to a guy and never got it back. Anyway it was a study of the dynamics of banditry, rebellion and revolution in 3 northern Chinese provinces in the 19th and 20th Centuries. These provinces, I forget the exact three, had a long tradition of unrest and banditry. I remember a couple of points in the book that might be relevant. One, although he did not elaborate on this point, the author did note that the "rebellious" reputation of these provinces was similar to Taiwan's and the second was although they were extremely poor provinces the inhabitants were very well armed. In fact, the peasants were criticized by government officials for their propensity to buy guns and swords rather than invest in agricultural improvements. Of course, the author explained what this was not completely irrational behavior on the peasants' part, but the main idea here is just because the civilians may not have been wealthy, it doesn't mean didn't buy good weapons if they could.

14th January 2011, 05:38 AM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Good points! Was one of those provinces Shandong? That place was historically full of banditry and violence, and the region has birthed many effective fighting styles - such as Mantis Boxing. The current day combat-effectiveness of many of those practitioners is debatable, but that's due to many factors and an entirely different discussion. But your point is pretty intriguing. Do you have an ISBN or a specific vendor you know that I can get the book from? If not I'll search. Taiwan was definitely a pretty violent "frontier" for centuries... I know that many Taiwanese were better-armed compared to counterparts in more "peaceful" (relatively) parts of China... but that was probably more out of necessity than cultural preference. Weapons over agricultural improvements, eh? No doubt you need to to survive before you can thrive.

14th January 2011, 12:52 PM	#9
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I don't think Shandong was one of the provinces, although it may have gotten some mention. I bought that book over twenty years ago and loaned it out probably over ten years ago, so I would have to look it up myself. Sorry. I do have "The White Rajahs of Sarawak" by Robert Payne, which likely isn't the most scholarly work on the Brookes, but was looking through it last night specifically for any details about the Chinese rebellion against James Brooke. It mentions the Chinese were buying guns from gun runners and they were heavily armed with spears and muskets during the fighting, so it looks like in frontier conditions, firearms were pretty popular with Chinese civilians.

14th January 2011, 02:37 PM	#10
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_Xiao...Duck_Formation

14th January 2011, 03:12 PM	#11
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I just looked up "Rebels and Revolutionaries in Northern China" on Amazon and it was very reasonably priced. I was also recommended "Rebellion and Its Enemies in Late Imperial China: Militarization and Social Structure, 1796-1864" by Philip Kuhn in relation to the use of village militias in warfare. That is also available on Amazon. I'm hoping both of these will help enhance my studies in 19th century Chinese swords.

19th March 2011, 04:38 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I read a book with multiple examples of Chinese crossbows from said period, a great many, perhaps a majority were cited as civilian weapons, especially "stone bows" that shoot bullets, not arrows, and have a scooped out stock that looks like an old-school girls' bicycle. They were cited as hunting weapons, especially for birds.

24th March 2011, 06:26 PM	#16
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Wow cool! I did not know that the Saisiyat and Tsou adopted the crossbow... I do remember hearing of aboriginal hunter susing bows and maybe even crossbows in the Alishan area (my Ah-gong lives close-by in Chia-yi)... and I think part of that is the tight regulation on firearms. Matzka eh? Nice! I haven't listened to them too much, but I am gradually getting more into Taiwanese music - afterall, that is my peoples homeland and culture!