Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 24th August 2010, 01:50 AM   #1
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default Maces, Clubs & Others

Hi,
My name is Aleks and I am a new member on this forum. I would like to open a discussion about history of maces, clubs and their migration into more symbolic representation of military power and authority (Scepter and Horsetail) in Middle East and Europe. Also, I wanted to show a couple of pieces from my collection hoping that you guys would fill in the gaps I have. I would appreciate any help and advise you can provide.

Even thought maces and clubs have been known since ancient times during the Middle Ages they truly became very popular. Maces and clubs were found to be very effective weapons against soldiers and knights wearing heavy armour such as chain mail and full body plate armour.
Many sources suggest that the mace was developing in Russia and Middle East at the same time. And eventually, in 12th century, it spread to Europe. By 14th century it became widely used by cavalry. Maces had a great variety of different shapes and all of them were used throughout the Middle Ages. In 14 century almost all maces in Europe had cylindrical head. This kind of mace provided an excellent impact area and was easily fixed to the handle. I was so popular that it is hard to imagine a horseman of that period without a mace. Right up until 15th century infantry in Europe used very primitive clubs reinforced with a metal spikes, which were still considered very inexpensive and effective weapon. In time maces became even more popular and up until 17th century noble knights widely used Shestopyor or Pernach (look on the right). They considered a mace to be more honorable weapon than any other percussion weapon, especially since it was already used by many warlords and high ranking officers as a symbol of military authority.
For the most part in Middle East maces were traditional weapons of Tatars and they were used way before 13th century. As was mentioned previously it was perfect for penetrating heavily armed cavalry. In stories about legendary King Louis IX of France or simply Saint Louis maces were mentioned very often to be preferred weapon of the Turkish cavalry.
In time maces gained more of symbolical value then an actual practical weapon. For example, even though scepter look like a mace, it has been known as an ornamental symbol carried by a ruling monarch. In a maneer of of speaking it is considered to be one of the royal relics.
Like scepter so called Horsetail or Buncuk had a purely symbolical value and represented military power and authority of commanding officers, chieftains and even Sultans. As far as I know word “Buncuk” evolved from Turkish language but initially it was brought to Middle East by Tatar-Mongolian invaders in 13th century. Later on Ottoman (Turkish) empire spread its use to Eastern Europe, countries like Poland.
Suddenly in 20 century this lethal weapon reappeared in trench warfare of WWI. All sides found maces and clubs to be extremely effective and most importantly quite weapon. Maces and Clubs were incorporated in trench raiding strategy. For the most part they were produced by local blacksmiths in closest settlements and some were actually manufactured in Germany and Great Brittan.
Attached Images
      
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2010, 05:29 PM   #2
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Smile

WELCOME TO THE FORUM
I COLLECT CLUBS SO IT IS IN THE SAME CATAGORY AND THE GRANDFATHER OF THE MACE. I HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEGE OF THE MACE. I CONSIDER THOSE WITH WOOD, STONE OR BONE TO BE CLUBS PERHAPS THEY BECOME A MACE WITH THE INVENTION OF A METAL HEAD FOR STRIKING?. THAT IS MY WAY OF SEPARATING THE TWO I MAY BE RIGHT OR WRONG
THE CLUB OR MACE OFTEN BECOMES A SYMBOL OF ATHORITY OR A STANDARD FOR THE TRIBE RATHER THAN A WEAPON SINCE TRIBAL TIMES UNTIL THE PRESENT. YOU SHOW THREE VERY NICE EXAMPLES OF THE FLANGED MACE AS WELL AS SOME HORSETAIL STANDARDS. I AM NOT SURE THE STANDARDS EVOLVED FROM WAR CLUBS AS THE MACE DID. I SUSPECT THE LONGER ONES EVOLVED FROM SPEARS OR LANCES WHICH THEY MORE CLOSELY RESEMBLE. THATS JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH AS I HAVE VERY LITTLE KNOWLEGE IN THE FEILD. PERHAPS YOU CAN ENLIGHTEN ME AFTER ALL THAT IS WHAT THE FORUM IS ALL ABOUT.
UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NO MACES BUT WILL SHARE A FEW PICTURES.
5. SEPTER, HAPSBURGS, AUSTRIA WITH NARWHAL HANDLE.
4. GERMAN IRON MACE
3. 5.1 CM GERMAN BRONZE MACE
2. 3X7CM. EUROPEAN BRONZE MACE
1. TWO VICUS BRONZE MACES
6. 4 INCH DIAMETER VICUS BRONZE MACE

THE VICUS MACES ARE FROM PRE COLUMBIAN TIMES IN SOUTH AMERICA. MACES WERE EVIDENTLY WIDELY USED THERE THOUGH MOST ARE STONE.
Attached Images
      
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2010, 06:46 PM   #3
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England UK.
Posts: 5,318
Default

My best loved subject. Three of my most favourite, Southern Africa.
Attached Images
  
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2010, 07:03 PM   #4
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,711
Default

the trench mace of ww1:


rough iron casting with tapered oval socket to fit issue pick mattock handle.


six flanged mace

'nother knobkerrie, the zulu 'iwisa' wooden mace

kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2010, 08:10 PM   #5
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Please pardon the poor pictures, but here's my own example, an Indian (16th-17th C.?) flanged mace measuring +/- 31.5 inches / 80 cm in length. There are still traces of gold koftgari on a couple of the 22 flanges, and several of them are bent, presumably from use. Note the one that appears to have split (delaminated?) in the 3rd photo below... the diameter of the shaft is thin (relative to the length), but the rings provide for a good purchase. A cavalry mace, maybe?





laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2010, 10:23 PM   #6
lionzden
Member
 
lionzden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 41
Default

laEspadaAncha thats a sweet Mace you've got there!

Congratulations!

.. and keep me in mind if you ever consider selling :-)
lionzden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 01:27 AM   #7
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default More Maces, Clubs & Other

Hi guys,
Thanks for joining this discussion. Your input and examples are greatly appreciated. I agree with Lionzden the Indian flanged mace is amazing. So, congratulations to laEspadaAncha.
As was mentioned Vandoo many Horsetail standards were actually carried on a long stuff, others had an actual a socket so they can be put on a spear or pike. Finally where are examples which more resemble a mace? One of those examples I will show below.

Regarding the definitions of maces and clubs I have referred to a Big Dictionary of Weapons by B.G. Trubnikov. So, this is a rough translation:

Fighting Bat – It is a simplest type of a club. Consists of the handle and working part looking like knob or a nub. Both parts are solid.

Club – Simple cold weapon which look like a Fighting Bat but strengthened spikes or metal plates.

Mace – Simple percussion cold weapon. This weapon has heads of different shapes but most often it is circular or elliptical shape. Maces with stone heads appeared during the Neolithic period.

I hope this will help you to gain a better perspective on what is what.

OK. Now finally I can show you the items I have and I hope you guys can help me with them.

1st Item From My Personal Collection

This item I bought about 3-4 years ago from an old guy in upstate New York. I did do some research and consulted about it with one of the local antique shop sellers. What I found out is that this item is a Buncuk of 18th -19th Century. It belonged to an officer or chieftain who commanded either a 10, 100 or a 1000 people. I have been told that the origin of that item is Persian and that each face on the head of it represents something but nobody told me what. I hope you guys would shad some light on this issue.
The guy who I bought it from insisted that the handle is made out of human bone but I never believed him. It just seems to be highly unlikely. The handle is wrapped in fabric like strips with horse hear sticking out all around its perimeter. The head is hollow and made of metal likely to be brass or bronze. Please see the pictures below for more.
Attached Images
      
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 01:31 AM   #8
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default 2nd Item

2nd Item From My Personal Collection

The second item I just recently bought and I think it is a trenching club of WWI period. At first I thought that it has German origin because of its shape but now I am not sure. On the leather strip fixed to the handle there is a name “EL CID” which is a Spanish national hero who lived in 11th century. That could mean that there was a military formation that had this name or it is a name of the person who owned it. This confused me even more because neither Spain nor Portuguese participated in WWI. As far as I know they remained neutral. I hope you can help me out with this one.

Thanks,
Aleks
Attached Images
      
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 02:21 AM   #9
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Thank you both Aleks & Lionzden for the compliments on the mace - Lionzden, since you asked, should I decide to sell the mace, I will give you first dibs.

Aleks - I'm not familiar with the term "Buncuk," and I'll be looking forward to hearing what some of the Islamic arms & armor specialists on the forum have to say... interesting-looking piece. And while I don't consider myself to be a part of the welcome wagon, welcome nonetheless...
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 02:38 AM   #10
trajan
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
Default maces

nice mace laEspadaAncha.

here are a few of mine with flanged heads and ringed shafts. Top one with wooden shaft has over 20 flanges as well.
trajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 02:42 AM   #11
trajan
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
Default maces

2 of my favorite

spear tip flanged mace with twisted steel shaft and openwork decoration at forte.

Large spiral head Deccan mace---nearly identical to the Wallace collection example.

trajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 02:45 AM   #12
trajan
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
Default maces

--neat double head flanged mace between 2 spiked examples. Top one also unusual as it has flanges and spikes.
trajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 03:26 AM   #13
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default Wow

Wow, Trajan, there are amazing, super. Thank you for showing it to us

Thank,
Aleks
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 09:52 AM   #14
lionzden
Member
 
lionzden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 41
Default

woah trajan chum, friend, my old pal you got good taste!

any indian maces weighing you down, feel free to let me lighten your load
lionzden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 03:47 PM   #15
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

No kidding, eh? Impressive collection, Trajan!

It amazes me how varied the expression of form became on the Indian subcontinent... I especially like the large, spiral-flanged example.

It would seem that by concentrating the mass at the striking end, the thin-flanged examples allowed for a chopping/slashing utility comparable to an edged weapon... Whereas a hilt-biased tulwar was unlikely to cut through a kulah khud, a mace with blade-like flanges stood a greater chance at penetrating armor.
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 06:23 PM   #16
trajan
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
Default maces

Correct--some of the flanged ones are like tapered blades other are quite thick.

Arsenal-- I noticed you posted 2 late 19th-early 20th century devil head maces. Here are a few more to look at.



The ones with the cup representing shoulders are more of a "grand Tour" item from the late 19th-early 20th century.

here are a couple of bull head pieces--a standard example and a huge more ornate processional one.

trajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2010, 11:34 PM   #17
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default Maces and Horsetail Standards

Trajan this is very impressive collection of maces you have. You did mention that “maces with the cup representing shoulders are more of a "grand Tour" item from the late 19th-early 20th century”. What about the ones without the cup?? Are they earlier? I would love to find out how to distinguish the periods of Indo-Persian maces.
Also, since you such a big fan of Indo-Persian maces may be you can tell me something about the 1st peace I posted from my personal collection. Although I think it is not an actual mace but rather a horsetail standard for an officer.
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2010, 04:31 PM   #18
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England UK.
Posts: 5,318
Default Blow man ! Blow your horn !

Here is one a couple of chums and myself made a few years back for a central Asian republic. Siver gilt, I only made the modelled bits. I cannot remeber the exact size but pretty much the same length as laEspadaAncha's Indian mace.
Attached Images
 
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2010, 06:23 PM   #19
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default Scepter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
Here is one a couple of chums and myself made a few years back for a central Asian republic. Siver gilt, I only made the modelled bits. I cannot remeber the exact size but pretty much the same length as laEspadaAncha's Indian mace.


This is very impressive. You are real master of your craft. Thanks for showing it

Thanks,
Aleks
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2010, 05:53 PM   #20
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England UK.
Posts: 5,318
Default

Thank you , enough of boasting and pulling back from state regalia to items members are more likely to be able to afford. Even though this is European I had to have it. The Northern Nigerian chief pictured here must be class 4 or 3 as his mace is a little longer and has a small mace head on the top of the main one. Although not the finest work {I would expect} the crown and the lion and unicorn royal arms are hand repouse chased pieces.

P.S. having said that, perhaps the royal cypher is more important than the double mace head. Also so often with personal rank regalia, less is more?

P.P.S, Northern Nigeria protecterate lasted from 1900 -1914 being politically united with Southern Nigeria.
Attached Images
        

Last edited by Tim Simmons : 27th August 2010 at 07:26 PM.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 03:18 AM   #21
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default I need some help with Identifying my tranch mace and horsetail standard

Hi Everyone,
Can somebody please help me out with identifying the Items I have shown priveously.

Thanks,
Aleks
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 02:48 PM   #22
junker
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 140
Default Trench maces

Hi,
I didnt know that maces used in trench war.
Is ther any literature abuot it ?

Dirk
junker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 02:52 PM   #23
junker
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 140
Default Lathe

Hi Aleks,

the spikes of the El Cid mace seem to be made on a lathe. Therefore i guess it is not old. May be for decorating about 1950 th.
But as i post i m not familiar with ww 1 maces.

Unless an interestin topic

Dirk
junker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 03:28 PM   #24
graeme gt
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 97
Default

WW1 trench clubs top Austrian[i think] middle Brit made by Brigg London btm German not sure if its relevant to Ethno weapons but what the hell.
Attached Images
 
graeme gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 06:06 PM   #25
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default

Hi Junker,
Thanks for the response. I appreciate your help. I had couple of questions.
1) Are trenching clubs on the picture authentic WWI ones??
2) Do you think if it is better for me to ask about trenching club on the European Arms and Armour Forum??
3) Finally, do you know anything about the first item I posted (Mace like Horsetail Standard)???
Thanks,
Aleks
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 06:06 PM   #26
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default Questions, Questions, & Questions again

Hi Junker,
Thanks for the response. I appreciate your help. I had couple of questions.
1) Are trenching clubs on the picture authentic WWI ones??
2) Do you think if it is better for me to ask about trenching club on the European Arms and Armour Forum??
3) Finally, do you know anything about the first item I posted (Mace like Horsetail Standard)???
Thanks,
Aleks
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 06:16 PM   #27
trajan
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
Default maces

Sorry I can't help you with the horsehair piece Arsenal. I've not encountered a similar piece and my reference books had nothing as well.

as to the figural maces, there is a bull with cup as well that is of similar quality of the other cup pieces from late 19th century-early 20th century . The ones without cup are earlier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antique Arsenal
Trajan this is very impressive collection of maces you have. You did mention that “maces with the cup representing shoulders are more of a "grand Tour" item from the late 19th-early 20th century”. What about the ones without the cup?? Are they earlier? I would love to find out how to distinguish the periods of Indo-Persian maces.
Also, since you such a big fan of Indo-Persian maces may be you can tell me something about the 1st peace I posted from my personal collection. Although I think it is not an actual mace but rather a horsetail standard for an officer.
trajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 06:22 PM   #28
Antique Arsenal
Member
 
Antique Arsenal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 32
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trajan
Sorry I can't help you with the horsehair piece Arsenal. I've not encountered a similar piece and my reference books had nothing as well.

as to the figural maces, there is a bull with cup as well that is of similar quality of the other cup pieces from late 19th century-early 20th century . The ones without cup are earlier.


Thank you Trajan. This information is very useful.
Thanks,
Aleks
Antique Arsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 07:36 PM   #29
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England UK.
Posts: 5,318
Default

Do you mean the thing with dolphins and a lion head and a cheurb? face?

If so I have no idea what it is. Is it martial? it is showy. It looks like bone? carved like a hoof at the end? Dolphins do not strike as an image of universal military borish bombast. Perhaps something to do with the church?

Last edited by Tim Simmons : 30th August 2010 at 07:58 PM.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2010, 08:04 PM   #30
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,711
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by junker
Hi,
I didnt know that maces used in trench war.
Is ther any literature abuot it ?

Dirk



try googling on

trench (mace OR club)

lots of pics and some articles on them, also try googling trench warfare
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:20 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.