Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th May 2010, 12:38 AM   #1
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default Where is this sheat from?

Can someone tell me from where this sheat originate? Sorry for the poor quality, the pictures are from the seller. And the toe is also not from me!
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 01:11 AM   #2
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,853
Talking

It is too your toe !

Sajen, could you flip the first picture so the scabbard faces the other way ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 01:33 AM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
It is too your toe !

Sajen, could you flip the first picture so the scabbard faces the other way ?



Here the mirrored picture.
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 01:42 AM   #4
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,853
Red face

I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is .

The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko .

I cannot place the scabbard .


A picture of the keris; perhaps ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 01:51 AM   #5
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is .

The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko .

I cannot place the scabbard .


Yes, of course a composite keris and I am also sure that the blade not original to the sheat since the middle of the jejeran not line up with the "Ri cangkring" of the wrongko.

I've bought it because the sheat. Is it maybe a coteng form? This is my hope!

The blade is a very poor one, this suggest the picture and seems to be from Java or Madura.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Sajen : 14th May 2010 at 02:05 AM.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 03:28 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

Not all keris have always been dressed according to the high standards of late 19th century, through to 21st century connoisseurs.

I have seen a great many keris from various areas that do not follow what current collectors consider to be correct, in that blades are a poor fit in wrongkos, alignment of hilt to wrongko is poor, and in general, the keris have simply been not very neat. However, these keris I have in mind have not been what we think of when we talk of composites, rather, they have been keris that were collected in SE Asia pre-WWII and in some cases, have been genuine old keris held by families in Jawa.

In times past - and for that matter, today also, not every blade is going to have its own individually bespoke wrongko crafted for it. If a near enough fit can be achieved by use of a used wrongko, that is often good enough. Not all people in Jawa now, or in the past, could afford to pay a maker to produce the perfect wrongko for a keris, they would use wrongkos in various stages of completion bought ready made from the market, and finish the fitting themselves.

We're used to see perfection as the benchmark, but in reality, this is a pretty recent phenomenon. People in the past living in rural villages far removed from centers of power did the best they could with what they could get, and this was often very far from perfect.

We should not label a keris as "composite", just because it falls short of perfection in fit and finish.

In respect of this wrongko, I'm inclined to think it might be an old North Coast Jawa one. I have a similar one that has a probably reliable provenance of 19th century Cirebon area.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 06:35 AM   #7
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 716
Default

Also i think the sarong comes from Cirebon area.
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 12:26 PM   #8
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

I believe the sheath belongs to tajong / coteng family, from northern Malaysia or southern Thai.

If any of you happen to be in possession of "Spirit of Wood" by Noor, Farish A., turn to page 169 where there are schematic drawing of the sheath of keris tajong. According to the diagram, the carving on crosspiece representing "the third eye of Shiva", the hindu God.

Also, referring to Sajen's post #3 (the mirrored picture), below the right crosspiece is a flat panel called "bahu" (shoulder), which I've only seen in coteng sampir so far. This "bahu" feature is identical to the attached picture of a coteng below, albeit Sajen's was more pronounced.

Therefore I strongly suspect that Sajen has found himself a coteng sheath. And it happen to be a one-piece-construction coteng sheath too (no cross section that i can see from the pic).

I personally think this is a great find, no matter of what keris u might have inside. Cotengs are hard to come by, so it is the right thing not to miss it!

p/s - what do you all meant by "composite keris"?
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 01:43 PM   #9
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 545
Default

I also have seen images where similar sheaths with North-coast Java and Madura hilts are depicted. This sheath form probably have a resemblance with early ladrang forms from Java.

If this sheath is North-coastal, is it rather atypical becouse of no central ridge, or is there a pendok intended? Could we expect such sheath form from Madura?

I am curios how this keris fits the sheath and to see the blade itself. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 04:05 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Thank you all for comment. So we have two opinions from where this sheat comes from, Cirebon or a Coteng from northern Peninsula. This two options have been in my mind whereas I would prefer the second!

Would be interesting what our members from Singapore think about.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 08:34 PM   #11
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rahiangtang Limbangan:'Hdap Rsi'
Posts: 284
Default

Hullo everybody!


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though!

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 09:27 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo everybody!


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though!

Best,



Thank you for comment! Agree that you can find iras sheats from Cirebon (see picture). And agree also that it is sometimes very hard to decree the origin of a sheat because the "cross-pollination" in the archipelago special by early forms.

Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 09:30 PM   #13
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Have you noted the middle rib in up from the sheat in the third picture in #1?
Maybe this will be helpful.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2010, 09:33 PM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.



Hope so!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 12:00 AM   #15
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

That middle rib you called, is the "caping" or point, as explained in Spirit of Wood. And you also can see how identical this "caping" as to the coteng's.

It also appears in some aged keris tajong sheath.

The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin.

Cross pollination is obviously the reason why it is so identical to both region's design. Let's not forget the empus from pattani also originated from Java / south sumatra.

Of course I might be wrong too. Let's learn from each other
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 02:54 AM   #16
PenangsangII
Member
 
PenangsangII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 401
Default

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....
PenangsangII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 03:30 AM   #17
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,159
Default

My 1st impression was that this was a coteng sheath, but after closer inspection, I tend to agree with Alan that this is probably Cirebon/N Coast Jawa. The aesthetics are clearly different. In S. Thailand and N. Malaya where the coteng tajong comes from, the aesthetics is one of 'lanky' proportions. This sheath here is too 'fat', especially at the part where the batang joins to the sampir. Also, the sampir of a coteng tend to have 'boxier' feel, not straight rectangular, but having a deeper trough. Yes, seeing all thses sheaths and the Raja Mala hilt makes one want to think of the origin of the tajong and coteng as N Coast of Jawa.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 06:38 AM   #18
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....


Salams,

I personally think you are right about that belief. Can see the traces of java influences in peninsular keris culture. As for here, the cirebonese wronko is also hold some resemblances to coteng's sampir.

By looking at the picture, the "caping" bears more percentage of similarities to the coteng sheath. Maybe a clearer picture from Sajen's crosspiece could be placed next to the coteng pix and to the cirebon iras example, where we can see clearly the similarities and differences, spot on.

The carving on the crosspiece, IMHO tries to emulate the "third eye of shiva". However, I am not sure whether Cirebonese sampir could have this kind of carving. Or perhaps the carving comes later, for some purposes. There are possibilities.
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:47 AM   #19
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 545
Default

In case of "composite" keris: the strangest photo ever I have seen, taken before 1920 probably in Aceh. Mendak-Selut are very close to ones on pompous Gowa keris (with hilts depicting Bhima(?) in lalitasana), hilts are looking like Banjarmasin. I remember to have seen a specimen very much like the left side sheath with a Madura hilt.
It seems, the left side keris have seen some practical use .Pesi is the week point and is getting bent easily (according to english sailor tales about adventures in Singapore )
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Gustav : 15th May 2010 at 11:53 AM.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 11:12 AM   #20
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Sampir comparison.
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 05:30 PM   #21
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 545
Default

This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions.

"The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin."

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Last edited by Gustav : 15th May 2010 at 06:25 PM.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 06:59 PM   #22
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,707
Default

Hello Gustav,

look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=cirebon

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=cirebon

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 07:50 PM   #23
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.


Hi Gustav,

I'm sorry I could not enlighten u about Cirebonese sheath. I never had one, nor I have had one in my hand before. I put forth the differences simply by comparing the sample pictures that Sajen has uploaded, and few others I can see from the links.

From my untrained eyes, you can see that all the cirebonese crosspieces given as example here (either in links given or Sajen's pix), there are something identical at each of the left side of the crosspieces. Sorry I don't know the name of this features, but the feature that I am referring to looks like a cheek line at the left side of the cirebonese crosspiece, where both my coteng and Sajen's new sheath do not possess.

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

Also I attach this picture taken from Artzi's sold item page, a coteng, which bear some similarities to Sajen's new sheath. Not 100% identical, right? I would say that the overall shape of Sajen's new sheath looks like it have Cirebonese influences while the features are of Coteng's.

I would also love to learn more about Cirebonese sheath, as much as I would love to own one!
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:06 PM   #24
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 545
Default

Moshah,

thank you very much for the explanation.

Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:12 PM   #25
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:20 PM   #26
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 545
Default

Then this feature would appear also on a Cirebon wrongko?
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:26 PM   #27
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

What I meant is that this feature appears on cirebonese wronko, even it is on the cirebonese sample pix that Sajen had posted.

But both the coteng keris pix samples that I have uploaded, plus Sajen's new sheath, do not possess this feature.
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:44 PM   #28
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 545
Default

Ok, I was getting disoriented by your Oriental Arms picture, where the left side is the right side. I ment the ridge at the bottom of wrongko on other side.

Last edited by Gustav : 15th May 2010 at 09:29 PM.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 10:10 PM   #29
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

It seems to me that this question is going in circles.

I believe we all recognise that Kai Wee has some experience of Peninsula keris, and he seems to think that this wrongko is not Peninsula.

The rest of us, including myself, are only offering suggestions with no real knowledge or evidence to back those suggestions.

One regular contributor to discussions here , who does know something of the Cirebon area, is Ganja Wulung.

I feel that at this point in this discussion his opinion on this matter would be highly valued.

Come on Pak Ganja, float an informed opinion, so that we can put all our uninformed opinions to one side.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 10:42 PM   #30
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Thanks Alan,

Honestly, I am not so sure which style of warangka it is. But IMHO, it is not Cirebon style (for comparison, images #1 below, are Cirebon style warangkas). Or we might compare it to Tegal warangka? (Image # 2 below)'

It would do much help, if Detlef would take picture from above. To see the upper form (the "daunan") of the warangka..

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
  
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.