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Old 7th November 2009, 11:10 PM   #1
Spiridonov
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Default barrels with tube fastening in 1470-80

This question for Michael. Hello, Michael. I wish to ask you. Do you have photos of handgonnes with tube fastening on a simple stick for 1470-80 with the sizes (calibre, lengtn...) and the description (marks, matireal...)? For example, whether here of this kind (1, 2, 3, 4). Do you have information about this barrels (5)? Is the stoks original or not? What is the date of this? Still I wish to ask, how is frequent barrels of this types was painted? Sorry - too many questions
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:17 PM   #2
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Hi Alexander,

For photos of tiller/stick guns of the mid to the 2nd half of the 15th century, please go to

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8461.

The barrel of the first gun in my thread, ca. 1450, is of wrought iron, the one of the second (ca. 1500) of copper alloy (brass or bronze). The socket of the first retains remains of the original tiller stock while this is preserved completely on the second gun.
I will post the measurements and data soon.

The watercolors nos. 1-4 in your thread are taken from a codex of ca. 1480 preserved in the collections of the Princes of Waldburg-Wolfegg, and illuminated by an anonymous artist known as Meister des Hausbuchs (Master of the housebook).

Your photo no. 5 shows some of a large number of haquebuts with wrought iron barrels, ca. 1460-1500, mostly of Nuremberg and Bohemian make, all preserved at the Západoceské Muzeum Pilsen, Czechia. Some of their stocks are original while others seem to be later reconstructions. Unfortunately this is hard to determine nowadays because, after left in virtually untouched and perfectly patinated condition for hundreds of years, all of the Pilsen guns were exposed to heavy 'restoration' measures in the 1980's, often with extremely sad results for the pieces, especially the stocks. E.g., large pieces of felt were nailed to the rear flat ends of the buttstocks, a rather 'ingenious' method indeed of preventing them from 'damage'. All the wooden surfaces were crudely smoothened and varnished thickly. As I said, the outcome is very sad and - what is even worse - irreversible and it is really hard to tell what is old and what is new, and it is absolutely impossible to tell what they looked like orginally.
Just for the sake of completeness let me add that the iron parts had been acid cleaned.

I went here with so much enthusiasm to see one of the oldest preserved collections in the world, and then my eyes almost filled up with tears.

As to the question of painting of late 15th century stocks, this cannot be answered by just yes or no. From my experience I should say that most stocks were just left untreated while others were varnished and some even painted polychromatic including decorative symbols such as floral patterns and even coats-of-arms. The wood used for the stocks of heavy pieces was mostly oak, sometimes ash, but I have also seen fir and beech now and then.

I tried to give a few highly unusual examples of painted Gothic stocks in former threads.

Best,
Michael
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Old 8th November 2009, 07:16 PM   #3
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I was meaning not painting of stocks but painting of barrels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I will post the measurements and data soon.

Thanks, I will be wait.
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Old 1st December 2009, 03:49 PM   #4
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Hi Alexander,

Please accept my heartfelt excuses for letting you wait so long!
Here are the answers to your qestions concerning the measurement data of my two tiller guns.

The measurements of the bronze barrel tiller (stick) gun formerly in my collection, late 15th century, are:
overall length 146.8 cm, barrel 56.6 cm, caliber 13 mm (measured about one inch back of the bell shaped muzzle opening widened for easier loading).

The data of my wrought iron barrel, with remains of its original tiller stock preserved in the socket, ca. 1450-60, are:
overall length 72.7 cm, barrel 56.1 cm, caliber at the widened muzzle 20 mm, narrowing to ca. 16 mm after about one inch (see above).

Best wishes,
Michael
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Old 1st December 2009, 04:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
I was meaning not painting of stocks but painting of barrels

Thanks, I will be wait.



Hi Alexander,

In my experience iron barrels were quite often painted red with minium (red lead) in the Gothic era; this was most probably an anti corrosive measure as well as it may have expressed the general appreciation of the color red in that period of time.

Although such varnishes have mostly gone from the rusty iron surfaces in the course of the centuries small remains can often still be found in protected areas. Longer barrels of heavier pieces seem to have been painted more often than smaller ones; e.g., I hardly know of any painted little barrel (ca. 15-30 cm) that may have originally been part of a hand cannon.

Best wishes,
Michael
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Old 3rd December 2009, 07:04 PM   #6
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Oh, one day, when i am grown up and well behaved, i shall have one of these.
Sigh .
Fernando

.
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Old 6th December 2009, 08:44 AM   #7
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Hello Michael! Thanks for very useful and valuable information. I am very grateful for the help
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Old 6th December 2009, 01:03 PM   #8
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does anybody know calibre and length of arquebuse №5?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=51980&stc=1
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Old 7th December 2009, 07:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
does anybody know calibre and length of arquebuse №5?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=51980&stc=1



Hi Alexander,

Thanks to the thoroughness of the Austrian Lieutenant Major Paul Sixl, who took all the photos you have been quoting and also noted the measurements of all these guns which were published in the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde, vol. 2, 1900-02, pp. 264ff., I can tell you that the wrought iron haquebut barrel no. 5 has an overall length including the socket of 99.8 cm while the barrel itself has a bore length of 79.7 cm and a caliber of 26 mm; the piece weighs 15.4 kg.

Telling by the place of your red number 5 which indeed marks the first in line barrel of the group, though, I am not quite sure whether you really meant that first barrel (which actually is no. 1 in Sixl's article).

Best wishes ,
Michael
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Old 8th December 2009, 08:43 AM   #10
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Thank you! But i had mean this barrel (look at attachment) :-) but i interesting in other barrels from Sixl's article too :-) Especially i interesting in quality foto of stock of this arquebuse.
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Old 9th December 2009, 06:22 PM   #11
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Default The Pilsen haquebuts recorded by Sixl in ZWK 1900-02

Hi Alexander,

If you allow some time I will post all 18 haquebuts prerserved in the Západocéske Musezeum Pilsen, together with the photos and all their relevant measurements and data. Please keep in mind that all I have is these more than 100 year old b&w photos taken by Sixl. 17 of these 18 haquebuts seemingly retain their original stocks and one of them even a primitve snap tinderlock. When I was at the Pilsen Muzeum in 2000 the curator was unfortunately not able to find that one. I can't really blame him because you should see the astounding masses of more than 250 firearms before ca. 1530, all displayed on trestles and with very little space in between. Sadly enough, many of them are displayed with the touch hole (and in this case the lock!) facing the walls - and they are fixed in their position with iron bands!

As Sixl's article is in German I am not quite sure how to do it. In fact I know too little about computers to be able and scan Sixl's tabulated list and translate the German text into English. I have to as ask around a bit how to get the translations into the table elements. But you will live to see it, no doubt.

Best,
Michael
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Old 9th December 2009, 11:19 PM   #12
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Mama mia
What a display!
Fernando
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Old 10th December 2009, 06:54 AM   #13
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Hi, Michael! So I see, what you have no sizes of this barrel?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
p/s
Thanks for great fotos
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Old 10th December 2009, 02:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Hi, Michael! So I see, what you have no sizes of this barrel?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
p/s
Thanks for great fotos


Oh yes, I have,

and I will post them together with the the measurements of the other Pilsen pieces, so please be patient!

Best,
Michael
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Old 12th April 2010, 08:33 PM   #15
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Michael, can You make canning without transate? Only scanning. If health certainly allows. If it is heavy for you because of a sick back then do not do it
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Old 13th April 2010, 03:59 PM   #16
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Default The measurements of Seven Pilsen Tiller Guns

Hi Alexander,

These are the measurements of the group of seven tiller guns marked 5 by you according to Sixl, ZHWK, 1900-02, p. 264 ff.


Length of barrel in cm; weight in kg; caliber in mm; top to bottom:

1. 94.6; 13.7; 21;

2. 84.6; 12.3; 21;

3. 91.8; 12.8; 21;

4. 88; 14.9; 24;

5. 99.8; 15.4; 26;

6. 90; 11.9; 22;

7. 96; 13.1; 26.



Simple scanning was not possible vor various reasons, moreover the text is in German and there are misprints in Sixl's table.

Please note that Sixl did not give the length of the stocks as he was not sure about their being the original.

I do hope this will help you along.

Best,
Michael
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Old 13th April 2010, 04:55 PM   #17
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Thanks biggest! These is a very valuable data. Does the length specified together with the plug (tube) or not? else i whant to ask: Have this barrel chamber or not?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52612&stc=1
Else as this handgonne is in your collection I wish to ask you. May i make a replica of this?

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Old 13th April 2010, 05:14 PM   #18
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Michel do you have data fof full table?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=48390&stc=1
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Old 13th April 2010, 05:31 PM   #19
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Sixl's measurements of the barrel lengths do include the tubular sockets. What you call a chamber, i.e. the breech originally receiving the powder and ball, is covered in any case.

My scanner is out of order at the moment but as soon as it is back at work I will publish a scan of all those data.
Dont' expect too much of them though, they are extremely bewildering, even to an expert, and I am afraid I might be of very little help to you ...

Best,
Michael
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Old 13th April 2010, 06:18 PM   #20
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Data which you have given correspond to numbers at the left or to an arrangement of burrels from top to a bottom? There can be misunderstanding of that when I mounted this photo I have broken an arrangement of burrels and numbering. Sorry for my stupid qestions
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Old 13th April 2010, 06:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
What you call a chamber, i.e. the breech originally receiving the powder and ball, is covered in any case.

I had mean a narrowing inside of barrel from your collection. Had it narrowing?
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Old 14th April 2010, 02:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
I had mean a narrowing inside of barrel from your collection. Had it narrowing?



Just very slightly.

Best,
Michael
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Old 14th April 2010, 03:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Data which you have given correspond to numbers at the left or to an arrangement of burrels from top to a bottom? There can be misunderstanding of that when I mounted this photo I have broken an arrangement of burrels and numbering. Sorry for my stupid qestions



Don't worry, there really should be no misunderstanding whatsoever. The numbers in the text do correspond to the barrels (whose numbers can be identified) from top to bottom, just as they are illustrated in Sixl's article.

Best,
Michael
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Old 14th April 2010, 03:34 PM   #24
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at this picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=56825&stc=1
this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1 have number 5
but it have number 7 at this picture
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=48390&stc=1
have this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
this parametras 99.8; 15.4; 26;
or this 96; 13.1; 26
It is a very important becaese i want to make a replica of this. And every millimeter is very impotant
p.s.
Thanks for the help. I apologise for too many questions. Excuse me
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Old 19th April 2010, 05:58 PM   #25
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I have made 3D model of barrel which was most interesting for me:
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Old 18th May 2011, 07:19 PM   #26
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http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum...,-ca-1350.aspx#
I think that this barrel is about 1480-90 years. Looks like barrels from Pilsen and Vienna. Please, look at the mark which is a hammer. I have seen similar mark on the barrels from museums of Vienna (Heeresgeschichtliches museum and Rustkammer). Who was the owner of this mark?
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Old 19th May 2011, 04:41 PM   #27
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3 beautiful barrel from Heeresgeschichtliches museum in Wienna. They all made from bronze. Length of upper barrel is about 575 mm. Calibre is about 15 mm. I don't know exactly because i have put my scale through the glass.
Michael, Do You know parameters of he upper handgonne?
p/s it looks like barrels from Bulgaria.
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Old 19th May 2011, 04:42 PM   #28
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else
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Old 19th May 2011, 04:58 PM   #29
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Barrels from one of Bulgariains museums.
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Old 19th May 2011, 06:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum...,-ca-1350.aspx#
I think that this barrel is about 1480-90 years. Looks like barrels from Pilsen and Vienna. Please, look at the mark which is a hammer. I have seen similar mark on the barrels from museums of Vienna (Heeresgeschichtliches museum and Rustkammer). Who was the owner of this mark?


Hi Alexander,

You are absolutetly right in assuming that the date given for this tiller haquebut by the NRA National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, Va., is far from being correct. 'Ca. 1350' is just ridiculous.

This mark, a goatsfoot hammer, is the personal mark of the famos barrelsmith Sebald Pögl the Elder, Thörl, Styria. Between 1498 and 1506, Pögl furnished 9,950 (!!!) haquebuts for the armories of the Emperor Maximilian I, so 'ca. 1500' would be the correct date for this piece.

Other haquebuts with Pögl's mark are preserved in the Vienna Hofburg and the Landeszeughaus Graz, Styria.

Best,
Michael
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