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Old 7th September 2009, 06:20 AM   #1
Clubs & Arrows
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Default North African Rifle ID Help Please

Hello.
I picked up a pair of rifles and I was wondering if anyone can help me with the markings chiseled into the metalwork. The guns appear to be Moroccan, but I'm not sure. Any help would be appreciated as far as origin or age. They are each about 6 feet long. One is in pretty sad shape, but the other looks nice to me aside from some cracks & chips in the wood. The close-ups are of the better rifle. The butt appears to be horn, wood, and a large piece of ivory. Any help with the markings would be appreciated.

Thanks for any help.

Best regards,
Joe
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Last edited by Clubs & Arrows : 7th September 2009 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 8th September 2009, 01:49 AM   #2
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Very nice workmanship. Not sure of their true name, but I have heard these referred to as a "Kabayle". Lock is of the snaphaunce type. Dating is difficult on any of these "camel guns". Could be as late as mid 20th century. But, I'd say early 19th century, or older. But that's just a guess. These are a sideline collection for me. But, sometimes, I wonder...
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Old 8th September 2009, 03:46 AM   #3
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In his book Islamic Arms, Tirri classifies this particular stock shape as BERBER and from Algeria. Similar, but not quite the same stock shape as Kabyle. If you have the book refer page 36.
Two very nice pieces. Congratulations.
Regards Stuart
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Old 8th September 2009, 03:57 AM   #4
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Very nice looking pieces. Almost impossible to date is right. Would love to have one to hang on the wall. I missed a similar piece going out the door of a gunshow last weekend. PM me if you have any interest in selling one. Are those considered "assault rifles" in the "Peoples Republik of Kalifornia" now?

Cheers
bbjw
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:35 AM   #5
Martin Lubojacky
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Hello, I dont cast dubt on Algeria and Kabylia, but you can also commonly find this type (shape) through all south mediterranian coast - up to Cyrenaika, for instance in Tunisia and western Libya.

Martin
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Old 8th September 2009, 12:58 PM   #6
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Hi everybody

I will be more circumspect,
Berber ... yes, most probably, from Morocco, called Moukalah

but Kabyle ... I doubt

the 2 long rifles have their flintlock " Miquelet"
the heel is more certainly made with camel bones than ivory.
they look as mid 19th century

the translation for the sentence it's not easy,
part is unreadable, but related with religion
- LELLAH ; either, FOR THE GOD
- ALLAH SHARA ; either, DIVINE LAW

+

Dom
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Old 9th September 2009, 03:28 PM   #7
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Thank you everyone for your information. These rifles are not what I normally collect, which is South Pacific, Philippine, and Southeast Asian artifacts & weaponry, but I couldn't resist picking up the pair. They have already found a spot of my wall. Again, thank you everyone for the input.
Dom, I took photos of the poor condition rifle's barrel, because it appears to have the same script chiseled into it. I used different lighting in case that will help. Any help on that would be appreciated. The same barrel has a tiny signature hidden in the design on the top of the barrel, although I couldn't get a really sharp close up.

Best regards,
Joe
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Old 11th September 2009, 12:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clubs & Arrows
Dom, I took photos of the poor condition rifle's barrel, because it appears to have the same script chiseled into it. I used different lighting in case that will help. Any help on that would be appreciated. The same barrel has a tiny signature hidden in the design on the top of the barrel, although I couldn't get a really sharp close up.
Hi Joe
here we are
at least, with the help of a second translator, we got the meaning of the sentence

the sentence on the barrel (same for both)
ALLAH SHARA IN JIHAD AL BEY'KA LA either; WE ARE READY FOR HOLY WAR (Jihad) IF GOD WILLING

what look like to be a stamp (?) from the blacksmith (?)
TA'HEB either; TA'HEB (no translation coze should be a name)

an other mark, no idea for what should be ?? (it's not a date )
MAZ'B AL ?????
I leave it for more qualified than us ...

+

Dom

ps: all transposition from arabic to european writing are respected the arabic direction of reading, I mean; from right to left
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Old 14th September 2009, 02:31 AM   #9
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Dom,
Thank you very much for the translations. You have been a great help.

Best regards,
Joe
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Old 17th September 2009, 01:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi Joe
here we are
at least, with the help of a second translator, we got the meaning of the sentence

the sentence on the barrel (same for both)
ALLAH SHARA IN JIHAD AL BEY'KA LA either; WE ARE READY FOR HOLY WAR (Jihad) IF GOD WILLING
AFTER REVIEW AND CORRECTION
ALLAH INCH' JIHAD AL BEY'KA LA either; WE ARE READY FOR HOLY WAR (Jihad) IF GOD WILLING

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Old 24th September 2009, 04:22 PM   #11
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Dom,
Thanks again for the further help with the translation.

Best regards,
Joe
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