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Old 31st January 2013, 05:26 PM   #331
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.



Salaams~ This is another variant of the stamps available with Ras Al Khaimah sword makers. Readers may recall the Lion with Sword and the Taj Crown etc ... well heres another... The Stag Stamp; "Ras Al Khaimah". The same workshop region is also expert at making scabbards and long hilts. These appear to be by Shehu craftsmen and a similar stamp has been seen on their knife blades also called "Shehi"

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Old 2nd February 2013, 05:30 PM   #332
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Salaams ; Note to forum. The question as to where the Metalic Long Hilted Red Sea Variant see fits is interesting in that it could be the source of the Omani Long Hilt on both Curved Kattara and The Straight Omani Dancing Sayf.

It is now suggested that the sword is related to an Abassiid form at the Istanbul Military and Yemeni Military museums thus see the entire thread at;


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16205


See my comparison with a sister weapon at # on this thread which needs to be added the very similar attributes on both swords in hilt design
1. Pointed pommel.
2. Pommel not part of the tang but separate though part of the hilt top configuration.
3. Rounded hilt probably octagonal following period mosque styles.
4. Cuffs in both styles.
5. Rivvet supported design in essentially two parts.
6. Quillons in one form and folded quillons supporting the cuff in the other and the slightly different design probably governed by the different length of blades.

In all respects the Red Sea Variant appears as a stretched Old Omani Battle Sword Hilt. In a separate assessment the Red Sea Variant could be the key link as the mother of the Omani Long Hilt on both Straight Sayf and Curved Kattara forms.

The question as to a link to the sword in the Wallace is open to speculation and obviously in itself a huge undertaking.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 2nd February 2013 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 4th February 2013, 04:48 PM   #333
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Salaams all Note to Library.

See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2485#post152485 # 27 for an unfolding scenario closely linked to this thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 4th February 2013 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 8th February 2013, 08:30 AM   #334
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Salaams all... For simplicity may I only refer to Kattaras and Sayfs on this thread as the other sword (Omani Battle Sword) has its own thread now? It may be an idea for separate Omani Curved Kattara, Omani Straight Sayf, and Omani Shamshiir threads in due course thus focussing the workload and avoiding duplication. Thinking aloud. So I have floated new threads one for each sword type but not the Omani Shamshiir.. yet
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 8th February 2013 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 8th February 2013, 08:57 AM   #335
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Default My opinion

Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades.

I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin
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Old 8th February 2013, 09:44 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades.

I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin



Salaams Gavin, I have just started a new thread on The Omani Sayf (and one on The Omani Kattara). This straight design is a pageant only sword..dancing only. Not a fighting weapon. I didn't see your blade nor did I perceive its flexibility but you may have a stiff blade (red sea?) on an Omani hilt in which case it could be a hybrid. Ive seen one or two before but they arent Omani dancing blades. Omani dancing blades bend 90 degrees or more. Tipu tip the great slaver didnt have one of these... his was a whopping Kattara curved single edge job.

Please show the blade and any stamps.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 8th February 2013, 10:31 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Gavin, I have just started a new thread on The Omani Sayf (and one on The Omani Kattara). This straight design is a pageant only sword..dancing only. Not a fighting weapon. I didn't see your blade nor did I perceive its flexibility but you may have a stiff blade (red sea?) on an Omani hilt in which case it could be a hybrid. Ive seen one or two before but they arent Omani dancing blades. Omani dancing blades bend 90 degrees or more. Tipu tip the great slaver didnt have one of these... his was a whopping Kattara curved single edge job.

Please show the blade and any stamps.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Thank you Ibrahiim,

There is not enough 18th and 19th century evidence to consider the straight form as a dance sword only.

The sword was the high symbol of the warrior. I am still not convinced that by form alone, curved vs. straight that one is separated by use from the other, more so when they both share the same hilts and scabbard types and the straight ones are seen in much higher numbers than the sabres. And why do they all have a sharpened edge in straight form, not something required of a dance sword.
By design, I think it would have been personal choice of what type was wanted and I wouldn't be surprised if W. H. INGRAMS failed to note curved types in the dance fray too.
To consider this is only a dance sword, to me would be like saying Jian and Dao or double edged vs. singled edged Khanda hilted sword have separate purposes.

If I was to follow the thought that straight sword is dance only, I add, when considering the ratio of straight vs. curved types that there was very little adventuring being done by the Omani and they were too busy dancing, something history says is the opposite off.
Also, when the straight form pushed so far west in to Mandingo dress and dress of other regions, that the sword was used and displayed to these western cultures as weapons as I am sure they didn't just dance with them after being in touch with traders.

I again return to the original TVV thread that I would suggest your post in that thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. Do not mistake flexibility for weakness, but an advantage when used in this manner with the flexible sword for cutting and the shield for defense.
I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of the sword but important a cultural observation of the time with a more common sword used in the dance observed, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony and importance...in much the same way the revered Jian is both used for fighting and also a spiritual weapon in Taoist ceremony and dance. To dismiss the form alone in its national dress as a dance sword is not supported but each sword I would suggest be inspected under it's own merit.

Regards

Gavin
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Old 8th February 2013, 12:29 PM   #338
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Thank you Ibrahiim,

There is not enough 18th and 19th century evidence to consider the straight form as a dance sword only.

The sword was the high symbol of the warrior. I am still not convinced that by form alone, curved vs. straight that one is separated by use from the other, more so when they both share the same hilts and scabbard types and the straight ones are seen in much higher numbers than the sabres. And why do they all have a sharpened edge in straight form, not something required of a dance sword.
By design, I think it would have been personal choice of what type was wanted and I wouldn't be surprised if W. H. INGRAMS failed to note curved types in the dance fray too.
To consider this is only a dance sword, to me would be like saying Jian and Dao or double edged vs. singled edged Khanda hilted sword have separate purposes.

If I was to follow the thought that straight sword is dance only, I add, when considering the ratio of straight vs. curved types that there was very little adventuring being done by the Omani and they were too busy dancing, something history says is the opposite off.
Also, when the straight form pushed so far west in to Mandingo dress and dress of other regions, that the sword was used and displayed to these western cultures as weapons as I am sure they didn't just dance with them after being in touch with traders.

I again return to the original TVV thread that I would suggest your post in that thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. Do not mistake flexibility for weakness, but an advantage when used in this manner with the flexible sword for cutting and the shield for defense.
I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of the sword but important a cultural observation of the time with a more common sword used in the dance observed, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony and importance...in much the same way the revered Jian is both used for fighting and also a spiritual weapon in Taoist ceremony and dance. To dismiss the form alone in its national dress as a dance sword is not supported but each sword I would suggest be inspected under it's own merit.

Regards

Gavin



Salaams Gavin I missed a few points on this but will pick up on them on this post... You are right about the high warrior status symbol but status of the forefathers rather than the warriors dancing though they too feel very proud..

I also think that the blades are from two entirely different places and are thus unrelated except by the same hilt .

Many of the curved swords are European made but all the dancing swords Ive ever encountered have been locally made.

I believe the hilt was a simple sensible choice for both blades as it fitted easily and comfortably inside a waistband or sash... or carried at the shoulder in the case of the straight blade.

The reason why there are lots of straight swords is because nearly all males in Oman have them and when they turn out mob handed at national day thousands gather to do the march past all carrying / weilding their pageantry swords...

I am not sufficiently knowledgeable on the Mandingo form to give an opinion on any influence or direction it may have taken. Some indicate the movement of Islam in that direction may have taken sword technology along with it but I am not sure.

I would normally agree about your take on dance form except that in Oman it has another level not obvious to outsiders... The Funoon. Its a big subject but in short it is the unwritten traditions from the beginning handed down through music, dance, and poetry as well as a sort of Pantomime enactment that never changes. In this way they record many events mimicking camel trains, ships trading chests of silver and gold and of course war all set to music drum beat or poetry and singing. For the sword enactments we see the Sayf and Terrs being used but that only took over from the old sword as I say in the mid 18th C. The Funoon goes back to the 8th.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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