Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st May 2009, 01:27 AM   #1
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default SAJEN kerises

Dear All,

First of all, I apologize for disturbing you to deal with this "name game" again. These are some of my humble collection of what GB Gardner (1933) said as "keris majapahit". Although, the local name was probably "keris sajen" (keris for offering) or even colloquially named as "keris kepala besi" (or 'iron headed kerises' in Bahasa Indonesia).

My old question is, why did Gardner name such kerises as "keris majapahit"? Is there any relation with "keris from majapahit Kingdom"? Or maybe, "kerises usually used by people in Majapahit"?

I am waiting for your enlightment...

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 

Last edited by ganjawulung : 21st May 2009 at 02:09 AM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 01:31 AM   #2
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default MORE close up

These are some more close ups...

Thx
GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 01:33 AM   #3
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default MORE close ups

Some more close ups...
Attached Images
    
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 02:30 AM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 3,960
Default

I believe Gardner thought this type of keris originated during the Mojopahit period. Perhaps it did, though i suppose the form could be older. It certainly is a form that existed back then. Of course the name gives the impression that this was the standard keris from that time and i think we will all agree that keris sajen is a more accurate name.
Nice collection BTW.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 03:53 AM   #5
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default With Its Warangka

Thanks, David. And these are more pictures of the sajen kerises -- some of them are "pichit" (name in Malay version), with their warangkas....

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
   
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 05:00 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

I don't know the answer to this one Pak Ganja. I have a gut feeling that the name might be tied into the finding of the keris under a stupa at Borobudur.

I never heard this name used in Jawa in the late 1960's and the 1970"s.

Here's a link to some of my "iron ancestors" (intended reference to the upcoming publication.)

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 10:02 AM   #7
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default Iron ancestor

What a beautiful "iron ancestor", Alan. I agree with what you wrote in your site. I think it is more objective than any other comment on what you mentioned as "iron ancestor". I agree too with David van Duuren's naming this old things as "antique javanese amulet kerises" -- this is more elegant than naming them as "majapahit kerises" (a peiorative naming of javanese kerises)...

I think, now is the archeological turn. I hope someday there will be one of them, to research on old inscription in Central Java such as Prasasti Rukam (Rukam Inscription) dated back in 829 Saka or 907 M which had mentioned about tools of iron such as:

"...wsi-wsi prakara, wadung, rimwas, patuk-patuk, lukai, tampilan, linggis, tatah. wangkiul, kris, gulumi, kurumbahgi, pamajba, kampi, dom.... (... all things made of iron, such as axe etc....)

Or other inscriptions of 9th century such as Karang Tengah Inscription, and Poh Inscription, that mentioned... people at time had known kres (although, not certain yet whether this 'kres' form was asymetric like kerises or not...).

Or on Kedu inscription (dated back 750 M) that mentioned... King of Syailendra dynasty had ordered someone to make kerises for him.... (This still need to be researched further).

Anyway, still there are many 'keris puzzles' to question...

Thanks a lot, Alan,

GANJAWULUNG

Last edited by ganjawulung : 21st May 2009 at 02:23 PM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 11:02 AM   #8
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

Pak Ganja, you know, and I know, that an immense amount of rubbish has been written about all types of keris.

This "keris Majapahit" nonsense is just one of those pieces of rubbish. However, I feel that when the term originated it may have been thoughtless, unintentional rubbish. The possibility is that the early Europeans who met this keris form recognised it as an early form, and at the same time recognised Majapahit as an early era, and simply matched the two as a matter of providing easy terminology. The real nonsense came later, when others picked up on the term and accepted it as reality.

Then, of course, the dealers in Indonesia started to use the term, and before we knew where we were everybody and his brother was confusing Keris Mojo, with Tangguh Mojo --- and on and on and on.

I think that at the present time most people with any serious interest in the keris understand that "Keris Majapahit" is just a name that means nothing.

As to the interpretation of words in the old inscriptions, and no less in the old literary works, I doubt that we will ever have a satisfactory conclusion to any of the facets of that problem. When people like Zoetmulder and Robson cannot come up with precise answers, I doubt that anybody can. You mention archeology, but I don't think that this is a problem for archaeology, I think it is a problem for the linguists and anthropologists. It would be wonderful if we could find an early Classical Period piece of stone junkmail, complete with illustrations, advertising a sale of superceded teweks and tuhuks, with the first ten buyers receiving a gift of a complimentary kres --- but I somehow don't think that we're going to come across that bit of advertising material.

This mystery of early names is really only a matter of curiosity, in any case. We do have the evidence graven in stone of the Early Classical period existence of something that we would call a keris. We have plenty of evidence of the continued existence of this something right throughout history. There is no doubt at all that the cake did exist from very early times. To know what early Javanese people may have called it would only be the icing on that cake.

What is in my opinion, much more important is the understanding of what the keris was to those early people, and the understanding of the development of its nature through to the present day.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 11:14 AM   #9
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,068
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
This "keris Majapahit" nonsense is just one of those pieces of rubbish. However, I feel that when the term originated it may have been thoughtless, unintentional rubbish. The possibility is that the early Europeans who met this keris form recognised it as an early form, and at the same time recognised Majapahit as an early era, and simply matched the two as a matter of providing easy terminology. The real nonsense came later, when others picked up on the term and accepted it as reality.

What is in my opinion, much more important is the understanding of what the keris was to those early people, and the understanding of the development of its nature through to the present day.


Alan,

I completely agree with you on both opinions.
The "keris Majapahit" nonsense is an European and most probably Dutch finding. Connecting the keris sajen to the Majapahit period as being very very old. What's more simple than using the name keris majapahit instead of keris sajen and unfortunately it is still done by the crowd.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2009, 01:19 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 3,699
Default

Two great collections of keris sajen!
sajen
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2009, 03:50 AM   #11
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default Size Comparison

Size comparison between Yogyakartan keris, medium size and smaller size of "keris sajen"...
Attached Images
 
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2009, 09:41 AM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

In my post of 21st. May I theorised that Europeans originated the name "keris Majaphit"

I now believe that I was incorrect in this proposition..

G.B. Gardner's "Keris and Other Malay Weapons" was first published in 1936. Gardner sourced his information on keris from contact with Malay people during the time he was stationed in British Malaya. In his 1936 publication he mentions the "keris Majapahit", and that place is probably where most European usage of the term is grounded.

However, in 1933 Gardner published an article in the Journal of Malay Branch of Royal Asiatic Society :- " Notes on Two Uncommon Varieties of Malay Keris". The two keris were the Keris Majapahit, and the keris picit.

At that time Gardner had been in Malaya for 20 years.

A reading of this article indicates Gardner is using these two terms based upon what he had learnt from Malay informants.

So, it would seem to be probable that the term "keris Majapahit" is not a European invention at all, but rather a term that was in common usage in Malaya during the first quarter of the the 20th century.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2009, 03:57 PM   #13
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
At that time Gardner had been in Malaya for 20 years.

A reading of this article indicates Gardner is using these two terms based upon what he had learnt from Malay informants.

So, it would seem to be probable that the term "keris Majapahit" is not a European invention at all, but rather a term that was in common usage in Malaya during the first quarter of the the 20th century.

I do agree with you on this, Alan. It is not a European invention, although Europeans who popularized that name in the past.

I have a bit different feeling on javanese names and naming in keris world. Especially those vehement javanese names. Not totally useless. The naming of keris' details, for instance 'greneng', 'sekar kacang' (peanut flower), 'lambe gajah' (elephant lips), 'ri pandan' (pandanus' thorn), 'wadidang', 'gandhik', or specific description on luk types such as 'sarpa lumaku' (moving snake), 'sarpa nglangi' (swimming snake), or types of pamor such as 'beras wutah' (abundance of rice, as a symbol of prosperity), or 'blarak sineret' (depicting motive, like dragged coconut leaves?)... I don't think that those namings had changed from time to time in the past.

Those naming, exactly matched with javanese daily life who like natural symbols. Reflected precisely the daily life of agricultural and also coastal javanese. Also, the naming of other keris details such as 'sirah' cecak (lizard's head), or 'buntut urang' (tail of crayfish), or types of 'buntut urang' such as 'nguceng mati' (dead fish, uceng = is a name of certain kind of fish).

But yes, many disputable names also. Such as, names of certain 'dhapurs' or model of kerises. Sometimes new names from time to time.

On "keris Majapahit" and "Jawa Demam". I think both names are not typical javanese namings. As analogy, in Jakarta or any other places in Indonesia except Padang (West Sumatra), many people offer "nasi padang" (rice of Padang), or "restoran Padang" (Padang Restaurant). But you will never find a "Padang Restaurant" in Padang, instead of "Ampera Restaurant", or "Ampera Rice" there. Or you will find many "Java Rijsttaffel" Restaurants in many cities of the world, but not in Java.

"Keris Majapahit", perhaps had a conotation of 'inferiorating Majapahit', as did "Jawa Demam" (Javanese shivering with fever...).

Unfortunately, I can't express clearly in English about all of this...

GANJAWULUNG

Last edited by ganjawulung : 26th May 2009 at 03:51 PM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2009, 10:11 PM   #14
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

Yes, I believe I understand your line of thought on this matter, Pak Ganja.

You won't find any Siamese cats in Thailand either --- up there, they are Chinese cats.

So, yes, Keris Majapahit was not a name that originated in Jawa, it originated outside Jawa.Not from a European source, but more probably from a Malay source.

The thing to keep in mind with keris naming is that those names do not mean what they might seem to mean.Nothing is ever what we are led to believe it is.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 09:00 AM   #15
drdavid
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 294
Default

I am probably not contributing much to the discussion but I was reading Groneman last night, he notes (pge 175) that these pieces were known as "keris budda" (sic). So in the late 1890s that was the name given to them by the local people he was speaking with. This is rather different to the item we sometimes call keris buda. I do remember ganjawulung that you explained on a previous thread about the meaning of buda
Quote:
There is a kind of sense of uncertainty in the word of "budo" or "buda". Maybe you may "translate" it as "very old" or "once upon a time"

So maybe any old unusual shaped keris could be called keris buda

drd

Last edited by drdavid : 26th May 2009 at 09:23 AM. Reason: added quote
drdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 10:18 AM   #16
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

It is very true that the meaning of words can and does change as time passes.

During the 17th and 18th century in England the word "occupy" was considered to be so vulgar that its utterance in a public place would get you time in the stocks.

So perhaps in Groneman's time the keris form that we now term "sajen", or "majapahit", was indeed named a "keris buda". However, the use of the term "keris buda" in the present time refers to a keris of a particular form that is from the buda period of Jawa, and that particular form excludes the keris sajen.

In the generally accepted sense, the "buda period" is the time prior to Islam, and does not mean purely the time when the Buddhist faith was dominant in a particular area of Jawa, but rather is a term applying to olden times before Islam.

In this day and age I have never encountered any confusion as the keris form that we term a "keris buda". The term has nothing to do with the unusual nature of a form, nor of any unique qualities of a form, it refers to a short, robust keris form with a square tang and a metuk, very often without pamor.

When we discuss the keris we sometimes do lose sight of the universal human tendency to vary the meaning of words, beliefs, customs, and traditions over time. This note of Groneman's would seem to me to be a wake-up call.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2009, 08:43 PM   #17
HiFi
Member
 
HiFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 11
Default

Only small additional information and not meaning anything, in Jogjakarta area, some people called the deder-iras keris as putut, maybe caused of the figure of the iron hilt presented like a prayer, or a human with hand position like pray. In this area, if we find this keris, better asking keris putut than asking keris sajen

Besides we known that putut also named for other form condition.
HiFi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2009, 04:37 PM   #18
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,853
Question

Any truth to the story that these were often buried near crops to assure good harvest ??
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2009, 05:47 AM   #19
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drdavid
I am probably not contributing much to the discussion but I was reading Groneman last night, he notes (pge 175) that these pieces were known as "keris budda" (sic). So in the late 1890s that was the name given to them by the local people he was speaking with. This is rather different to the item we sometimes call keris buda. I do remember ganjawulung that you explained on a previous thread about the meaning of buda

So maybe any old unusual shaped keris could be called keris buda

drd

I tend to agree with Alan, that "buda" term could mean "pre-Islam". So, based on this premis, you may roughly outline the chronological history of Indonesia (not in linear timeline) as follows:

Sriwijaya (3rd century - 14th century)
Syailendra Dynasty (8th century - 832)
Sanjaya Dynasty and Hindhu Kingdom of Ancient Mataram (752-1042)
Kediri (1045-1221)
The Spread of Islam (1200-1600)
Singasari (1222-1292)
Empire of Majapahit (1293-1500)
Malacca Sultanate (1400-1511)
Aceh Sultanate
Sultanate of Demak (1475-1518)
Mataram (Islamic) Sultanate (1500s-1700s)
Dutch East Indies (1602-1945)

On "keris buda" as dr D just mentioned, it should be accepted as "keris products of pre-Islamic period". So, just products of era before Singasari kingdom... That was mainly Ancient Mataram kingdom in Central Java (with kings such as Rakai Pikatan, Rakai Panangkaran, Rakai Pananggalan etc). Of course, still have no valid evidence until now...

"Buda" word, doesn't relate to Buddha or Buddhist. But just a rough colloquial term of "very old", or "before Islamic era" in Java...

That is just my one cent speculation...

GANJAWULUNG

Last edited by ganjawulung : 28th May 2009 at 09:51 AM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2009, 09:54 AM   #20
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

And I tend to agree with you, Pak Ganja.

However, I would raise one possibly pedantic point.

The keris form that we refer to as "keris buda" is a Javanese keris form, thus, the buda period in Jawa is the period that we should apply to definition of this form.

You have listed historical eras for Indonesia, which I agree is a valid way for a modern Indonesian to regard the history of Indonesia, however, we are dealing with Jawa, and in Jawa, during the period under discussion, the other islands and kingdoms that now comprise the modern nation of Indonesia were other countries, just as foriegn to a person living in the Land of Jawa as were all those places situated outside the Land of Jawa.

So, although Islam may have gained a foothold as early as the 11th century in places that we now regard as parts of Indonesia, evidence of Islam in Jawa does not occur until the 14th century, and Islam did gain dominance in Jawa until the end of the 16th century.

Let us accept for the purpose of this discussion, that the appearance of Islam in Java, rather than the dominance of Islam in Jawa, sets the upper parameter for the era we refer to as the buda period.

Let us further accept that the East Javanese gravestones that date to 1369 are valid evidence that Islam was present in Jawa at that time.

Let us be exceedingly generous and postulate that Islam first appeared one generation prior to the date of those gravestones. This will give a commencement date for Islam in Jawa of sometime during the first half of the 14th century, ie, 1300 to 1350.

That places the buda era as prior to 1300 as the most likely possible date for its demise.

As you note, Singasari commenced in about 1222.

I believe that 1222 is too early a date upon which to close the buda era.

I believe 1300 is the lowest possible date that we can use, and my personal preference is for a somewhat later date, perhaps somewhere well into the 1400's.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2009, 02:48 PM   #21
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi
... in Jogjakarta area, some people called the deder-iras keris as putut, maybe caused of the figure of the iron hilt presented like a prayer, or a human with hand position like pray. In this area, if we find this keris, better asking keris putut than asking keris sajen

Besides we known that putut also named for other form condition.

HiFi, no wonder. Even there are three words in javanese, that bear the same meaning of "keris". You may use the word "keris" as a general naming. Or more polite, you may use too "wangkingan", or "duwung" exactly for the same meaning...

Putut? Yes, you are right. In Jakarta too, keris people sometimes mentioned it as "keris putut" too, if I want to accentuate on the hilt ornament. And you may say, "keris sajen" too for general naming... But dhapur putut, that's different thing. Also dhapur of "putut kembar" (twin putut, one in the gandhik, and the other in the wadidang)...

GANJAWULUNG
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2009, 11:17 PM   #22
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

Pak Ganja, if I may, I would like to comment upon the words for "keris", in the Javanese language.

The word "wangkingan" is the respect level of high Javanese (krama inggil) and is not the equivalent of "keris". As it has been explained to me, wangkingan can only be used when we refer to a keris that is being worn, will be worn, or has been worn, as an item of dress, by another person to whom we wish to display respect. It would be incorrect to refer to a non-active keris, or a display keris, or our own keris, or a keris in a lower hierarchical relationship as a "wangkingan".

The word "dhuwung" is high level Javanese (krama) and is a direct equivalent of "keris", but the use of this word depends upon the hierarchical relationship of the keris, or the custodian of the keris, to the speaker, thus the word cannot be used in just any situation.

Then there are the words "curiga" and "kadga", both classical Javanese and applicable in a literary context.

Please forgive me for this extension of your own post, Pak Ganja.The Javanese language is your own, and I cannot even speak Javanese with any competancy, although I can read it well enough and follow a conversation conducted in ngoko. Thus, my purpose in these comments is not to try to teach you your own language, but rather to clarify for those people who do not understand the intricacies of the Javanese language, the obstacles and difficulties in using words from that language when those words are taken out of their proper context. It would be a little silly if we all started to indiscriminately use "dhuwung", and "wangkingan", as substitutes for "keris".
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2009, 02:44 AM   #23
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
The word "wangkingan" is the respect level of high Javanese (krama inggil) and is not the equivalent of "keris". As it has been explained to me, wangkingan can only be used when we refer to a keris that is being worn, will be worn, or has been worn, as an item of dress, by another person to whom we wish to display respect. It would be incorrect to refer to a non-active keris, or a display keris, or our own keris, or a keris in a lower hierarchical relationship as a "wangkingan".

Dear Alan,
It is amazing that you are able to understand in such level of Javanese language. Of course, I must put my hat off for it... Thank you for the correction.

What i wanted to explain in my previous post is, that the word "duwung' (not dhuwung), wangkingan and yes, curiga, are words for explaining the same object. If you have a complete javanese dictionary -- not only mentioning words in one level -- then you may find such example:

keris (ngoko) = duwung (krama madya) = wangkingan (krama inggil, or krama hinggil).

The same meaning for different usage. In javanese language, there are at least three levels of using the language. "Ngoko" is for ordinary people, or ordinary usage -- including the usage of language by the higher level person, but with the same social level. Then, please use "keris" for this usage. (But usually, they prefer to use the more polite word, "duwung")

Higher level than "ngoko" is "krama madya" (medium level javanese), then you may use "duwung". For instance, if you are a common people, want to speak to a higher level person to wear keris, then please say it "would you wear this 'duwung' please," (in javanese language, of course)

The highest level is "krama inggil", or you may spell it "krama hinggil" (ha, in the javanese caraka script, is the same writing, with "a") for the word keris is "wangkingan". Yes, it would be silly if you are the common people, or people in the street, saying to another person in the street like this:

"hey, look at me, I am wearing a 'wangkingan'....," (of course in javanese language). This will be very silly. Ridiculous.

Javanese language is not easy to learn. Because, everytime you must learn one word in at least in "three stages" or "three level" of usage.

The word of "I" or "me", for instance. In "ngoko" language it is "aku". And if you speak to someone you don't know -- but the same javanese -- then you must use the word "kula" in more polite mode then "aku" for mentioning "me".

But if you speak to someone you honor -- highest level person, then you must use "dalem" or "kawula" for mentioning yourself. And it will be silly if you mention yourself as "aku" if you speak to the highest level person.

But on the contrary, the highest person -- the king for instance -- want to speak to his people, ordinary people, then he may use the word "ingsun" for mentioning the same meaning as "aku".

If the king want to say about "keris" to his people, to the socially lowest ranking, then it would be silly if he use the word "wangkingan". Because he is the highest level person in javanese society, then he may use the word "keris". And I think it is so clumsy too, if the king use the word "wangkingan" to mention keris in front of the audience of common people....

Any way, I must salute you Alan, for the highest level of understanding in javanese language...

GANJAWULUNG

Last edited by ganjawulung : 30th May 2009 at 04:15 AM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2009, 04:26 AM   #24
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

I thank you for your compliment Pak Ganja, but I must amend your understanding of my comprehension of Javanese; I cannot pose to possess a level of understanding which I do not have.

As I have said, I don't have a lot of difficulty with ngoko, but I prefer not to use it, because I could easily make a fool of myself. I stay with Indonesian --- or at least what passes for Indonesian in Solo---when I speak.In fact, almost everyday I learn a new Javanese word -- and I must admit, some of them make me laugh.

However, when Pak Suparman (alm) was with us, he gave me intensive instruction on all those usages of the various levels of Javanese that dealt with the keris. I have a good understanding of how to use Javanese in respect of those things to do with the keris --- but talk to me about wayang, or gardens, or cakes and my understanding is much less, especially if any level of krama is used.

I read Javanese reasonably well, but this is only because I have spent a lot of time in translation of both Old Javanese and Modern Javanese into Indonesian.

In relation to "dhuwung", I understand the correct romanised spelling to be "dhuwung", even though we will often spell it "duwung", and in pronunciation there is effectively no difference. The word "duwung" is a variation of "luwung", which means something like :- "preferable", or "it will be better if".

In Krama we have a couple of levels, but Madya is not really a level of Krama, it is an intermediary level between ngoko and Krama. Krama can be divided into Krama Inggil, which is High Krama, made so by the use of a small vocabulary of "respect" words that are substituted for the normal Krama words, and Krama Andhap which can only be used when we refer to ourself, and we substitute a small vocabulary of "humble", or "defacing" words for the normal Krama words. So, Krama Inggil and Krama Andhap are not really different levels at all, but only Krama with the addition of situational words that reflect hierarchical position in a further refinement of the hierarchy already established by use of Krama.The Javanese language is an accurate reflection of the hierarchical nature of Javanese society.

Please do not misunderstand this explanation as further evidence of my knowledge:- it is not. My knowledge in this area is a bit like the knowledge a motor engineer has of a motor:- he understands perfectly how it works, but he does not know what end of the spanner to hold in order to fix the motor. I have a very good understanding of the way the Javanese language, both Modern, and Old works, but I have not yet picked up the spanner.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2009, 09:01 AM   #25
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Please do not misunderstand this explanation as further evidence of my knowledge:- it is not. My knowledge in this area is a bit like the knowledge a motor engineer has of a motor:- he understands perfectly how it works, but he does not know what end of the spanner to hold in order to fix the motor. I have a very good understanding of the way the Javanese language, both Modern, and Old works, but I have not yet picked up the spanner.

IMHO, seldom foreigner has a deep knowledge in multi-level javanese language as you do. Usually, they only know "ngoko" or just common javanese. And seldom know "krama" or even "krama inggil" level. I think, we javanese must respect person like you, or even like Nancy Florida, who take much attention to javanese culture...

GANJAWULUNG

Last edited by ganjawulung : 30th May 2009 at 02:42 PM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2009, 06:28 PM   #26
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default PUTHUT kembar

These are more pictures on hilt part of "keris sajen" or as Hifi mentioned, "keris puthut" and some shots of a keris with dhapur "puthut kembar" or twin hindhu-priest with East Javanese hilt...

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
    
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2009, 10:46 PM   #27
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

Again Pak Ganja, you compliment me too highly.

To be honest, I sometimes think that with my background, and the length of time I have been involved with Jawa, I'm a bit of a goblok for not being able to handle the languages better than I do. Personally, I consider my level of understanding to be a bare minimum.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2009, 08:23 PM   #28
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 918
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
G.B. Gardner's "Keris and Other Malay Weapons" was first published in 1936. Gardner sourced his information on keris from contact with Malay people during the time he was stationed in British Malaya. In his 1936 publication he mentions the "keris Majapahit", and that place is probably where most European usage of the term is grounded.

However, in 1933 Gardner published an article in the Journal of Malay Branch of Royal Asiatic Society :- " Notes on Two Uncommon Varieties of Malay Keris". The two keris were the Keris Majapahit, and the keris picit.

At that time Gardner had been in Malaya for 20 years.

A reading of this article indicates Gardner is using these two terms based upon what he had learnt from Malay informants.

So, it would seem to be probable that the term "keris Majapahit" is not a European invention at all, but rather a term that was in common usage in Malaya during the first quarter of the the 20th century.

Dear Alan,
Let me try to elaborate further on this "keris majapahit" topic again. Not only GB Gardner did mention this type of keris as "the earliest form of keris that probably originated from Majapahit era". But also other writers in that same book, such as GC Woolley (1938), AH Hill (1956) and also Abu Bakar bin Pawanchee (1947). Most of them had quoted much the famous book of Thomas Stamford Raffles', The History of Java (1817).

This Raffles' book, (now the Indonesian translation is published in Yogyakarta) of course it is a great book. One of among a few pioneers on documenting the javanese past trace, although some of the information -- especially on keris -- was told in "legend version"...

As you know, the Jamaican born Raffles was then the Lieutenant Governor of Java, during British government in East Indies on 1811-1816. He then moved to Sumatera -- building a second greatest fort in Asia Pasific for Britain until 1823... Died in the year of 1826.

British government ruled Java in only less than 6 years in East Indies (then Indonesia) -- compared to the Dutch which ruled Java since 1602, interupted 6 years by the British and then continued the Dutch rule after 1816, until 1943... But this short British government brought much documentation on Indonesia. Of course, it was "another version" of Dutch documentation on Java in the past.

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 

Last edited by ganjawulung : 31st May 2009 at 08:53 PM.
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2009, 10:22 PM   #29
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,853
Unhappy Raffles

I wish it was reprinted in English .
Then maybe I could afford a copy ...
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2009, 11:25 PM   #30
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,174
Default

Yes Pak Ganja, during that period of the 1930's ---1940's everybody and his brother was spreading the word on Majapahit keris, probably to demonstrate their depth of knowledge of Javanese history and culture, and to drive home the point that they were academic researchers.

This is what happens in all fields. Writers pick up an idea from a previous writer and either appropriate it as their own, or if the previous writer is already well known, they quote him to bolster acceptance of their own writing. Nobody was more well known than Raffles in this matter, so Raffles and keris and Majapahit got a mention, then Gardner's "keris Majapahit" got a mention. In common memory the two meld together, and before you know where you are you have some people thinking that Raffles originated the "keris Majapahit".

However, Gardner was, I believe, the first to mention keris Majapahit, in his 1933 paper --- see my previous post--- the other writers came later, and I believe were riding on Gardner's shirttails --- they had picked up the name from his writing.

Actually, Raffles does not mention "keris Majapahit", he mentions a king of Majapahit who was able to forge keris by the use of finger pressure. He was aware of the kingdom of Majapahit, he had an interest in Javanese history, myth, and legend, but nowhere does he specifically use the term "keris Majapahit" --- well, not as far as I can see, anyway, its a big book.

In fact, the OUP reprint that I have is two big volumes.

Rick, there's not a real lot on keris and weaponry in Raffles. For somebody with a high interest in Jawa, it is interesting reading, but for somebody with a high interest in weaponry its most definitely not particularly useful. I think it currently sells for upwards of $500; I bought my copy new about 35 or 40 years ago. Near as I can recall it cost a bit more than $100.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:45 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.