Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st February 2008, 06:10 AM   #1
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default Shell guard question.

Hello chaps,

I have a question for you.
On Jims very interesting thread re. Scottsh swords, we talked about linings in the basket hilt, and it was agreed on they were very common.
I have an old English back-sword, from I'm told the 1630's with a shell-guard, and a silvered gryffon-head pommel. (silver's nearly all gone, and it now looks mainly brass!)

Q;
Would a shell guard on such a sword also have originally had a liner?

I do thank you that there is this forum! we can bring any question, and nearly always get an answer!

Best wishes,
Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2008, 10:39 AM   #2
Paul Macdonald
Member
 
Paul Macdonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posts: 48
Default

Can you post any pictures Richard?
Paul Macdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2008, 02:37 PM   #3
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Paul,
Thank you for your interest!
I will try and take some today for you and post ASAP.

It is not in great condition.....looks a bit like it lived underground for a while.

Very best wishes,
Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2008, 02:43 AM   #4
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Here are the pictures Paul:
















Thank you for taking the time to look at them.

Best Wishes,
R
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2008, 05:50 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,156
Default

That really is a nice example Richard! I've always been drawn to these swords in untouched condition, and this is a very unusual hilt for the English horsemans swords of this period. The hilt is very similar to type II on p.251 of Mazansky ("British Basket Hilted Swords", Cyril Mazansky, 2005, Royal Armouries). This example has similar long neck zoomorphic pommel (possibly lionhead), with fluted grip of possibly ebony and is cited as Royal Armouries # IX1318, which is dated c.1625-50. It also has the shell type hilt guard.
Another similar on p.274, VAib.

Another example (op.cit. type II Di , is of 'mortuary' type from York Castle museum and of the same period, c.1620-50. This particular sword with the more encompassed basket type hilt regarded as semi-basket does have a liner.

While there has been discussion on the liners on Scottish basket hilts, it is unclear as far as I know how much this feature occurred on the English forms. It does seem however, that it did appear in at least some of them. Some of the English variations of cavalry basket hilts did have liners, so I would presume it would have been quite possible, though probably not exclusively favored.

Naturally this is simply my opinion based on what information is presently at hand, and it would be great to hear from others with more information.

I think it be interesting as well to look more into the gryphon used on English hilts rather than the lionhead in the 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2008, 12:29 PM   #6
Paul Macdonald
Member
 
Paul Macdonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posts: 48
Default

That is one beautiful sword Richard,

As far as I have seen, the only sword types I have known with liners have been full or half basket hilts.

I have never seen a hilt of your type with any evidence of liner. It is not a world away from a walloon style hilt, and all that I have seen are unlined.

The only other type of cushioning protection I know of in sword hilts from this period is ricasso wrapping, usually in velvet, for sideswords or early rapiers, given that one or two fingers around the ricasso are necessary for use.

All the best,

Macdonald
Paul Macdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2008, 02:25 PM   #7
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Jim and Paul,
I thank you so much for your very interesting replies!

I am very pleased you find this old sword interesting, and indeed beutiful.

I suppose it stands to reason, that a sword with this type of guard would not be lined, but I did not know for sure. Thank you for your answers.

I also thank you for the name of the book, Jim, and will also check into York castle, and the Royal armouries.
(used to live near York..)

Did you notice the old scarf weld, right at the hilt?
It looks like it was broken there in it's working life.
The blade is still very supple, and has a slight "droop" when held out straight.

it feels altogether lovely in the hand,...even if it has "lived rough" for what appears to have been a very long time!

Thank you again, and I would be Very interested in hearing from anyone else with a similar sword. esp. with the gryphon pommel.

Paul,
I'd give an arm and a leg to attend your Highland training program!!!!!
..........but if I did, I think it would rather compromise my performance!

It's been years since I was up in that country. Quite miss it.

Thank you again.

Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2008, 11:34 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,156
Default

Hi Richard,
Just came up with an interesting thought. The gryphon seems to have been much favored in Dutch swords in about this time. (Rick....it came up with the Shaver Kool sword.......oh no!!! )

I wonder if that might have some bearing on this example? Most of the English examples had a lionhead.

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2008, 01:38 AM   #9
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,053
Default

Very nice
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th February 2008, 11:42 PM   #10
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The gryphon seems to have been much favored in Dutch swords in about this time. (Rick....it came up with the Shaver Kool sword.......oh no!!! )

All the best,
Jim


Shaver Cool !?!!! ......... slowly I turned ...






Now cut that out Jim !!
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2008, 01:33 AM   #11
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,156
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Shaver Cool !?!!! ......... slowly I turned ...






Now cut that out Jim !!



JUDL!!!!Those words are engraved in our brains forever Rick!!!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2008, 01:51 PM   #12
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Jim,
I don't have a clue what you and Rick are talking about,......But it is Good to be back!

All bets wishes,

Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2008, 03:15 PM   #13
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,924
Talking The Thread That Wouldn't Die

Hi Richard , it's an old joke, a reference to this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

I think this was the longest running thread (5 years) ever on this forum .

Best,
Rick
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:34 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.