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Old 4th November 2020, 04:11 PM   #61
Jim McDougall
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Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Jim,
I'm not sure this has anything to do with Karabela forms. The farmers knife or Bauernwehr was well established in Europe and as I see it this is the type of knife the man is wearing.
My Regards,
Norman.



Thanks Norman, purely a free association, but the similarity is keen in my view. I am not too familiar with the knives you describe so did not take that into account. It seemed interesting though that this form hilt which appeared in either Iraq or these areas at undetermined period.
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Old 4th November 2020, 05:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Philip
... Yes, you are spot on. The bagpipes, thought to be a legacy of the great Celtic migrations across Europe BCE, were a popular instrument, particularly among the common folk, across the Continent...


Apparently now evidenced as being an earlier instrument, in all its variants, according to those who claim the "Celtic myth", after finding that bagpipes developed their own distinct path, as early as cited in Biblic texts (Prophet Daniel, circa 600 BC.).

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... In Germany they are known as the Düdelsack, in Italy, zampogna.

Not forgetting the Swedish säckpipa, for another ... also probably not so early.

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... of my most vivid memories of Spain was a trip, decades ago, to attend the Fiesta de Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia, the northwest corner of the country which has been a Celtic cultural stronghold for centuries. Never conquered by the Romans nor the Moors... The gaita gallega is the traditional instrument there, mouth-blown like the Scots Highland piob-mor though somewhat smaller and with fewer drone pipes, played by bands marching through the streets with drums, around the Cathedral ...

As you unfortunately missed our gathering over here a few months ago, Filipe, you had no opportunity to check on "gaitas de foles" also playing in Portugal, some even in regions distant from Galician lands, these in slighly different variants .
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Old 4th November 2020, 06:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by shayde78
"Peasant and His Wife", 1519
We've seen this hilt before, also attributed to "peasants". Interesting that the artist's decision to use the same hilt design after so many years had passed. Habit of the artist, or does it speak to longevity of a peasant's style. If one values utility over fashion, there likely is little reason to change from a design that is working well enough.


To my mind the man is wearing a form of Messer (Germanic type of single edge knife) as Norman mentioned, which would be a smaller and shorter version of Langes/Grosses or Kriegs Messer. This was a form of Bauernwehr (farmer sidearm) which was popular across all classes at the time. The Messers did not have pommels but often had a ”beak” at the end of the hilt to prevent it from slipping out of the hand. Don’t know how old these Messers are but wouldn’t rule out origins from migration age like the scramaseax.

Now that Jim mentions it the pommel looks rather similar to the karabela. It’s commonly assumed that the karabela has Oriental/Ottoman origins but maybe the hilt form comes from the Langes Messer (Germanic).
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Old 4th November 2020, 06:51 PM   #64
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To kick off, a piece titled, "Five Lansquents and an Oriental* on Horseback" from 1495.


I note that the oriental is carrying a sword and looks military. What would he be doing with the Landsknechts? He might be a Stradioti (light cavalry mercenary from Ottoman provinces in Albania/Greece/Serbia) most of whom were Christian but also some muslims. Orthodox Christians in Ottoman lands seemed to have largely adopted Ottoman dress and arms and might in some cases have worn turbans.

Last edited by Victrix : 4th November 2020 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 4th November 2020, 08:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Victrix
I note that the oriental is carrying a sword and looks military. What would he be doing with the Landsknechts? He might be a Stradioti (light cavalry mercenary from Ottoman provinces in Albania/Greece/Serbia) most of whom were Christian but also some muslims. Orthodox Christians in Ottoman lands seem to have largely adopted Ottoman dress and arms and might in some cases wear turbans.


Thank you for the note on the karabela resemblance, in the example in the illustration discussed, which indeed has a pommel with a sort of undulation as the later form of karabelas which often appeared almost trilobate.

The hilt pictured of the messer suggests these types of weapon had the hook or beak in degree but with smooth bird head type pommel surface.

Very good points on the Stradioti, who were apparently much of the basis for European light cavalry. These multiple ethnic groups, the forerunners of the notorious pandours who were auxiliary forces to Austria and later other European armies.
The 'exotic' oriental fashions were intended to look more fearsome given the 'wild' reputation of these groups of horsemen. Many Balkan regions were very ethnically diverse as noted.

As the Landsknechts themselves were mercenaries of course, it does not seem unreasonable that these 'oriental' appearing (if not indeed ethnically so) horsemen would have been assembled as part of forces about to join in impending campaign.
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Old 4th November 2020, 11:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
When I moved from California to Tennessee, I recall the locals commenting to each other when one called me a 'yankee'.
The other said, "nah, he's from California, he aint nuthin'" in a drawl from the holler I could barely understand
.


That's funny, Jim -- a friend in NC occasionally calls me a Yankee when I tell him something that doesn't fit in with his notions and beliefs. However, my response is that if you take the Mason-Dixon Line, and extrapolate it all the way across the country to the Pacific, California (or at least my patch of it), lies well to the south of it. And I never tire of telling such folks that our neighboring Orange County was once part of Los Angeles County until it SECEDED in the late 19th cent. Many of the inhabitants thereof were Confederate vets who migrated and settled there after 1865, and, well, they just had this sentiment in their blood... There is in fact a Confederate soldiers cemetery in the county, with a monument dedicated to these brave souls. I know this gal who has Southern roots, she's a musician and is recruited each year for an impromptu band to play "Dixie" on Confederate Memorial Day. OMG, wait til the guardians of PC hear about THAT!

Yeah, California ain't nothin'. Knew another chap, from a Boston Brahmin family, who thought the West Coast lay beyond the borders of the US and joked that he should carry his passport when going to San Fran. And wondered what currency is used in Hawaii and Alaska.
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Old 5th November 2020, 08:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by shayde78
"Peasant and His Wife", 1519
We've seen this hilt before, also attributed to "peasants". Interesting that the artist's decision to use the same hilt design after so many years had passed. Habit of the artist, or does it speak to longevity of a peasant's style. If one values utility over fashion, there likely is little reason to change from a design that is working well enough.


Messers (German for knife) in different forms of Bauernwehr (farmer’s arms) are covered in this excellent post from 2012: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15053. It’s believed that the Langes/Grosses Messer grew out of the common farmer’s knife. They were presumably cheaper to produce and required less training to use than knightly swords. Apparently many Landsknechts were originally farmers. From memory there were distictions in terms of guilds in who was allowed to produce knives and who was allowed to produce and market swords.
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Old 6th November 2020, 02:13 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by shayde78
"Apollo and Diana", 1502

A European bow? Or one from the East to show the exotic nature of the gods? Also, isn't Diana supposed to have the bow?


If I remember correctly Apollo was an archer also, he and Artemis were twins after all. Besides real arrows his arrows in the Iliad were disease.
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Old 7th November 2020, 05:24 PM   #69
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Default rain chapes revisited

Here's an example of what I was talking about in my previous post on the topic, and which is illustrated in the prints in Posts 13 and 25. 'Just found this image while browsing Boccia/Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane.

A rain-guard of leather, but in this case of metal, between the grip and crossguard, with projecting flanges on each face which go over the scabbard mouth and keep the dirt and moisture out. A fragile component that is missing on 99.9% of surviving swords. This one, on an estoc attributed by pommel markings to Estorre Visconti, Lord of Milan (died 1413). The fragility of these chapes is exemplified by the fact that on this one, the flange on the reverse side has long since been broken off.
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