Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th December 2011, 12:03 AM   #1
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 686
Lightbulb Whistlinbill's Collection #1: Kris

I expect that most younger collectors, at least those in the USA, will have heard those of us with graying hair speak of times past when ethnographic arms and armour were cheap and abundant, showing up regularly at local gun shows, and consisting largely of 'orphaned' soldier and tourist bring-backs. In those times, the ethnographic arms collector likely had only one reference - Stone's Glossary.

I have received a CD of photos of one collection built up over the past forty years by a member new to these forums, but not to the world of edged weapons. The user name, whistlinbill, substitutes for a name many would recognize as an author in the field whose works we have relied upon and I suspect that will be revealed in due course.

There are dozens of group photos on the CD which, rather than to put out all at once as an overwhelming bolus, I will trickle out in a hope of maximizing comment and discussion.
Attached Images
 
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 12:18 AM   #2
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Smile

Maranao ? , I like the multiple fullers on the left hand example; not to mention the sepokal-like curve to the blade; wonder if that one might be Sulu ... .

Nice start .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 03:16 AM   #3
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Smile

ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT NICE KRIS
AT FIRST GLANCE A NOVICE MIGHT CONSIDER THESE 5 EXAMPLES TO BE MUCH ALIKE. BUT ON CLOSER OBSERVATION THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIABLES REPRESENTED HERE.
FROM THE TOP DOWN,4 EXAMPLES HAVE COCATOOA POMELS AND M5 HAS A HORSEHOOF POMMEL.
M3 AND M4 HAVE METAL COLLARS BETWEEN THE POMMEL AND GRIP IS THIS A MARANO FEATURE?.
M1 AND M5 HAVE ROUND GRIPS WHILE M2,M3,M4 HAVE ROUGHLY RETANGULAR GRIPS.
M3, M4, M5 HAVE METAL FERRULES THE OTHER 2 DO NOT.
M5 STILL HAS 2 BACA BACA STRAPS, M2 HAS ONE BACA BACA AND EITHER A WIRE OR FIBER STRAP.
ALL KRIS APEAR TO HAVE SEPARATE GAURD OR GANJA.
THE FILE WORK ON THE GAURD SIDE (GANGYA) THOUGH SIMULAR IS A BIT DIFFERENT ON EACH KRIS M5 BEING THE MOST ELABORATE.
THE OTHER SIDE (GANGYA, SAME NAME) HAS WHAT IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE ELEPHANTS HEAD AND THE CURLED PART BEING THE TRUNK. THERE IS QUITE A VARIATY OF FORM AND WORKMANSHIP SHOWN HERE. I OFTEN WONDER IF THERE IS ANY RELATION IN THIS DESIGN TO THE VERY SIMPLE BY COMPARISON KAUDI IN KUKRI FROM NEPAL AND INDIA. ?
THE BLADES M1 AND M5 STRAIGHT I LIKE THE FULLERS AND DECORATIONS ON THESE TWO BLADES. THE OTHER THREE M2 FULL WAVED BLADE, M3 HALF WAVED HALF STRAIGHT AND M4 PERHAPS 1 THIRD WAVED.
PERHAPS SOMEONE NEW TO THE MORO KRIS CAN LEARN FROM SUCH SIMPLE OBSERVATIONS. SORRY TO RAMBLE ON BUT I JUST COULDN'T SAY COOL AND LEAVE IT AT THAT.
I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING SOME MORE OF THESE BEAUTYS.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 11:24 AM   #4
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

beautiful krisses! these are the ones that worn daily by the common man. really like those ones with rattan grips
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 12:47 PM   #5
whistlinbill
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 24
Default

Rick, thanks for your kind comments!
Bill Adams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Maranao ? , I like the multiple fullers on the left hand example; not to mention the sepokal-like curve to the blade; wonder if that one might be Sulu ... .

Nice start .
whistlinbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 02:59 PM   #6
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Very nice krisses! Have they sheaths?
Like the M1 with the fullers and the last one even if it not so old.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 03:36 PM   #7
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Default

D'you suppose we could call this featurless Kakatua pommel unique to the Maranao group ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 04:34 PM   #8
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
D'you suppose we could call this featurless Kakatua pommel unique to the Maranao group ?


Hi Rick,

I don't think that this are all Maranao kris. The "M" staying for Moro. Try to download the picture and you will see. I think the most are Maguindanao.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 05:02 PM   #9
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,188
Default

I agree with Sajen - most are Maguindanao. Interesting set.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2011, 09:39 PM   #10
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Default

Okay, so they are Maguindanao; I always get them confused ..
The question remains the same just change the name .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2011, 12:47 PM   #11
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Hi Rick,

can't answer your question but one of my Maguindanao kris have as well a this featurless Kakatua pommel, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12825

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2011, 07:56 PM   #12
whistlinbill
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 24
Default

Gentlemen, thank you for your expertise! When I was collecting, about the only thing I could tell was: "Is this one any different from the rest of the
crop?" And, if it was, and the price wasn't unreasonable, I'd usually jump.
Nowadays, you aficionados know not only what island the sword came from, but which SIDE of the island! I take my hat off to you!
Thanks again,
Bill
whistlinbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2011, 08:11 PM   #13
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Rick,

can't answer your question but one of my Maguindanao kris have as well a this featurless Kakatua pommel, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12825

Regards,

Detlef


Then I guess we could be heading in this direction then .
Maguindanao type/style kakatua ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2011, 08:48 PM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Then I guess we could be heading in this direction then .
Maguindanao type/style kakatua ?



I don't know exactly but someone confirm this in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=maguindanao Look post #16.

I have done some research and have seen that they (the Maguindanao kris) come with all sort of pommel. Maybe some of our knowledge members can tell more?

Here some more pictures of Mag. kris with this pommel style taken from old threads. The last two seems to be an older style.

Regards,

Detlef
Attached Images
    
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2011, 01:28 AM   #15
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,188
Default

The very last one I would say is Maranao. Very close in style to Maguindanao and they are locally next to each other on Mindanao.

The third one may be Sulu.

The top 2 are Maguindanao.........
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2011, 06:14 PM   #16
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
The very last one I would say is Maranao. Very close in style to Maguindanao and they are locally next to each other on Mindanao.

The third one may be Sulu.

The top 2 are Maguindanao.........


Hello Jose,

do you able to tell something about the hilt question? The last one was identified in the given link/thread as Maranao blade with Maguindanao hilt/pommel.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2011, 10:01 PM   #17
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Smile

Is there a typology present as regards this style of kakatua pommel ?
Can we assign this form as seen to a particular group ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 12:18 AM   #18
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,188
Default

I am looking at the blade not the hilt. The hilt I have even seen on Sulu pieces. ON the blade I am looking at primarily the front of the ganga area. You can check Cato for some of these, and I make the distinction between Maranao and Maguindanao.

There are other things on hilts that can help, especially the okir/okkil work done that can distinguish tribal areas.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 12:51 AM   #19
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

Yo Rick, i see what you're saying... Here the thing tho; i gave up classifying krises to a certain tribe. I'm not saying totally, since there are distnct styles indigenous to a certain tribe, especially later. For instance, the last kris on the right is distinctly sulu. But see now, we're running into whether it's Sama or Tausug. If it's Sama, then which one? Then we see all these blades that contradict what's on Cato's book. So to classify that we say, it's traded
. Really? How 'bout the possibility that a certain panday moving to a certain locale?
Here's another situation: a certain Iranun approached a maranao panday to make him a kris. Question is, would the panday forge the blade based on how he was taught, or would he conform according to a supposedly a iranun style? Just something to chew on...
With that said, the pommel style you're inquiring about, Rick, if we still have to go by Cato's book, can also be seen in Sulu.
My .02 centavos
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 01:43 AM   #20
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Default

Thanks for the input, Ron .
I see your point .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 01:58 AM   #21
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,188
Default

Lots of trade - a good point. Thats why we see a mix of styles on some pieces and it gets confusing. Something Cato does not mention. I have a little more faith in some classification than Ron, but what he says is also true.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2011, 09:20 AM   #22
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 686
Default

A most interesting discussion, thank you all. Here is the next installment:
Attached Images
 
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2011, 11:31 AM   #23
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

ooh, whistlin', you need to take off that red rust on the first kris. that's painful to look at...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2011, 11:47 AM   #24
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
ooh, whistlin', you need to take off that red rust on the first kris. that's painful to look at...


Without reading your comment I have had exactly the same thought.

Whistlinbill please care this blade or send it to me, I would be more than happy to do this job!

M6 and M7 are very nice krisses but both need care at the blades and sheaths.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2011, 02:33 PM   #25
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 686
Exclamation Be nice!

I should like to suggest to participants that admonishments about condition and care of presented artifacts are best handled by private message.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2011, 03:18 PM   #26
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,667
Default

Sorry, don't want to attack someone!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2011, 12:13 AM   #27
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

just a knee jerk reaction, lee, especially to an object that has cultural significance to some of us
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2011, 05:42 PM   #28
whistlinbill
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 24
Default Red rust and a red face....

Gentlemen, I apologize for the red rust! The collection has been sitting in my basement (dehumidifier going all the time) for the better part of the past ten
years. I pulled the boxes out and gave them to my old art director, Terry Moss, with the marching orders: "Shoot 'em like they are". Which he did.
So, I reckon I sorta got caught with my pants down--well, the rust is hangin' out, anyway!

Somebody asked about sheaths--seems like most of these have sheaths, but
Terry shot 'em without so he could get more knives into a picture. And, best
I recall, the sheaths are mostly plain, with either rattan or metal bands.
Thanks for your understanding--I'll try to do better in the future!
Bill
whistlinbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2012, 03:50 PM   #29
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,751
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
A most interesting discussion, thank you all. Here is the next installment:


M6 is a very interesting sword; most likely pretty early .
Sulu, I should think .

Here is its brother with a different pommel .

http://www.arscives.com/historystee...s1/160-rb3a.jpg
Attached Images
 
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2012, 04:14 PM   #30
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Here is its brother with a different pommel .

http://www.arscives.com/historystee...s1/160-rb3a.jpg

I dunno about "brother" Rick. I see a vast amount of difference between these two blades, from the greneng to the luks and flow of the blade. M6 is more slender and serpentine to my eye. Yours also has details like the line which almost forms something akin to a tikel alis and that other incised line that profiles the length of the blade. These are perhaps both Sulu, but i think they are from different periods with M6 being perhaps the older example.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:31 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.