Jim McDougall

Thanks Norman, purely a free association, but the similarity is keen in my view. I am not too familiar with the knives you describe so did not take that into account. It seemed interesting though that this form hilt which appeared in either Iraq or these areas at undetermined period.

fernando

Apparently now evidenced as being an earlier instrument, in all its variants, according to those who claim the "Celtic myth", after finding that bagpipes developed their own distinct path, as early as cited in Biblic texts (Prophet Daniel, circa 600 BC.).


Not forgetting the Swedish säckpipa, for another ... also probably not so early.


As you unfortunately missed our gathering over here a few months ago, Filipe, you had no opportunity to check on "gaitas de foles" also playing in Portugal, some even in regions distant from Galician lands, these in slighly different variants .

Victrix

To my mind the man is wearing a form of Messer (Germanic type of single edge knife) as Norman mentioned, which would be a smaller and shorter version of Langes/Grosses or Kriegs Messer. This was a form of Bauernwehr (farmer sidearm) which was popular across all classes at the time. The Messers did not have pommels but often had a ”beak” at the end of the hilt to prevent it from slipping out of the hand. Don’t know how old these Messers are but wouldn’t rule out origins from migration age like the scramaseax.

Now that Jim mentions it the pommel looks rather similar to the karabela. It’s commonly assumed that the karabela has Oriental/Ottoman origins but maybe the hilt form comes from the Langes Messer (Germanic).

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Victrix

I note that the oriental is carrying a sword and looks military. What would he be doing with the Landsknechts? He might be a Stradioti (light cavalry mercenary from Ottoman provinces in Albania/Greece/Serbia) most of whom were Christian but also some muslims. Orthodox Christians in Ottoman lands seemed to have largely adopted Ottoman dress and arms and might in some cases have worn turbans.

Jim McDougall

Thank you for the note on the karabela resemblance, in the example in the illustration discussed, which indeed has a pommel with a sort of undulation as the later form of karabelas which often appeared almost trilobate.

The hilt pictured of the messer suggests these types of weapon had the hook or beak in degree but with smooth bird head type pommel surface.

Very good points on the Stradioti, who were apparently much of the basis for European light cavalry. These multiple ethnic groups, the forerunners of the notorious pandours who were auxiliary forces to Austria and later other European armies.
The 'exotic' oriental fashions were intended to look more fearsome given the 'wild' reputation of these groups of horsemen. Many Balkan regions were very ethnically diverse as noted.

As the Landsknechts themselves were mercenaries of course, it does not seem unreasonable that these 'oriental' appearing (if not indeed ethnically so) horsemen would have been assembled as part of forces about to join in impending campaign.

Philip

That's funny, Jim -- a friend in NC occasionally calls me a Yankee when I tell him something that doesn't fit in with his notions and beliefs. However, my response is that if you take the Mason-Dixon Line, and extrapolate it all the way across the country to the Pacific, California (or at least my patch of it), lies well to the south of it. And I never tire of telling such folks that our neighboring Orange County was once part of Los Angeles County until it SECEDED in the late 19th cent. Many of the inhabitants thereof were Confederate vets who migrated and settled there after 1865, and, well, they just had this sentiment in their blood... There is in fact a Confederate soldiers cemetery in the county, with a monument dedicated to these brave souls. I know this gal who has Southern roots, she's a musician and is recruited each year for an impromptu band to play "Dixie" on Confederate Memorial Day. OMG, wait til the guardians of PC hear about THAT!

Yeah, California ain't nothin'. Knew another chap, from a Boston Brahmin family, who thought the West Coast lay beyond the borders of the US and joked that he should carry his passport when going to San Fran. And wondered what currency is used in Hawaii and Alaska.

Victrix

Messers (German for knife) in different forms of Bauernwehr (farmer’s arms) are covered in this excellent post from 2012: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15053. It’s believed that the Langes/Grosses Messer grew out of the common farmer’s knife. They were presumably cheaper to produce and required less training to use than knightly swords. Apparently many Landsknechts were originally farmers. From memory there were distictions in terms of guilds in who was allowed to produce knives and who was allowed to produce and market swords.

Interested Party

If I remember correctly Apollo was an archer also, he and Artemis were twins after all. Besides real arrows his arrows in the Iliad were disease.