What language or script please?

cannonmn · 30th March 2011, 12:29 AM

I haven't visited in a while, sorry! Now I'm back and need help again. This is a bit of a difficult situation because I don't yet have permission to show the entire item, nor describe exactly what it is-I hope to have that soon. The weapon is bronze, larger and heavier than most discussed here.

The "R" at the bottom of the series of characters stands for "Real" in Spanish and was put on the weapon when it was cast for Spain, in a Spanish colony, to show that it was Royal property. I know that because this form of bronze weapon was ONLY cast in certain Spanish colonies for the local Spanish authorities.

Now, can anyone recognize the language or script shown on this photo? This is the best photo available. Thanks!

Dom · 30th March 2011, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

This is a bit of a difficult situation because I don't yet have permission to show the entire item, nor describe exactly what it is

this is a difficult situation because I don't yet have the permission to translate, if the item isn't entire show as a whole

please acknowledge this post, thanks

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11201

best regards

à +

Dom

cannonmn · 30th March 2011, 01:13 AM

Dom thanks for taking the time to reply. He won't return for about two weeks and has no computer where he is, so for that particular weapon we would have to wait, with no certainty of a positive reply at the end.

I spent a few minutes trying to find a way to post an image, and let's see if this way works: I have a photo of a weapon which is identical in every possible way except for the markings. If you would accept an image of the twin, I could post an image of it as the restrictions I am under with images of his weapon do not apply.

Yes this is stupid, but unfortunately it is the only way I know how to do this.

Dom · 30th March 2011, 01:45 AM

don't mention, you are welcome

the webmaster has only the ability to agree for an exception ...
is him who fix the rules, and
I'm just a member, I have to comply with the rules, no more, sorry

à +

Dom

cannonmn · 30th March 2011, 02:39 AM

Here is the identical weapon, for your consideration, except as I mentioned, the markings differ, and "markedly so."

Dom · 30th March 2011, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

can anyone recognize the language or script shown

F.Y.I.
- Arabic alphabet
- none Arabic language
it's my comments following my appraisal

à +

Dom

cannonmn · 30th March 2011, 06:51 PM

Dom, thanks. I ran into a somewhat similar situation before when I posted similar characters found on the underside of a Lantaka which came from Midinao, Philippines, although I cannot recall the exact response, would have been on this forum maybe 3 years ago.

The type of cannon on which this inscription is engraved is a form of Spanish cannon which was cast in the Spanish-dominated Philippines during the 18th and early 19th Centuries. A couple of examples can be found in Brinckerhoff's SPANISH MILITARY WEAPONS IN COLONIAL AMERICA 1700-1821. My theory is that these small cannons (most seem to be between about 2 and 4 feet in length) were cast for Spain by small bronze foundries in the Philippines, under contract to Spain. There was a major Spanish cannon foundry in Manila, apparently associated with the Manila Arsenal during its operation by Spain, but I think its production was devoted to larger cannon, say three-pounders and upward to at least 24-pounders.

I've been in contact with Sid Brinckerhoff, author of the book mentioned, who is also trying to learn more about when and where these small Spanish cannon were cast. The big question is whether their production was limited to the Philippines, or whether they were cast in North America and/or South America as well. I don't think any of these smaller-bore bronze Spanish cannon were cast at the two Royal Cannon Foundries in Spain, namely at Seville and Barcelona.

BTW, here's the old thread where I asked for a translation of Jawi on the Lantaka, and was told it was not Jawi, but was non-Arabic language using Arabic characters. Does anyone have a name for this language or script?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=cannonmn

cannonmn · 30th March 2011, 10:45 PM

In casting about on the web, I found an article about Arabic writing on Moro armor. Unfortunately I'm not qualified to determine whether his article has information pertaining to my questions or not. In any case he mentions scripts known as "thuluth" and "nastaliq." His article is here:

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/07/ar...oro-armor.html

Dom · 31st March 2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

In casting about on the web, I found an article about Arabic writing on Moro armor. Unfortunately I'm not qualified to determine whether his article has information pertaining to my questions or not. In any case he mentions scripts known as "thuluth" and "nastaliq." His article is here:

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/07/ar...oro-armor.html

Hi
to answer at previous mail ...
- yes I was present already on January 2009 when I translated (for you) upon your request ...
what it was possible, because the mention wasn't in Arabic, but as far as, is ;
- names or religious invocations, almost are in "Classic Arabic", who is understanding mainly by all Muslims

the article about the "Arabic-on-Moro-armor" it's a "joyfull mishmash"
the writer is taking his wishes for "historical facts"

issued from "Wikipedia" - sources more credible than ...

Jawi (Jawi: جاوي Jāwī; Yawi in Pattani)
is an adapted Arabic alphabet for writing the Malay language.
Jawi is one of the two official scripts in Brunei and Malaysia as an alternate script for the Malay language.
Jawi has been relegated to a script used for religious and cultural purposes.
Day-to-day usage of Jawi is maintained in more conservative Malay-populated areas such as;
- Sulu in the Philippines, Pattani in Thailand and Kelantan in Malaysia.

The Jawi alphabet has existed since around 1300 CE in the Malay Archipelago.

à +

Dom

Andrew · 1st April 2011, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

this is a difficult situation because I don't yet have the permission to translate, if the item isn't entire show as a whole

please acknowledge this post, thanks

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11201

best regards

à +

Dom

Go ahead, Dom. Jim's post was a request (suggestion), not a formal "rule".

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2011, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Go ahead, Dom. Jim's post was a request (suggestion), not a formal "rule".

The reason I suggested that requests for translations be accompanied by photos of the entire weapon was to establish context. Often if we have an idea what type of item and what style or form it is in we can get a better idea of where to begin looking for alphabets or characters and in markings, where to search.

Dom · 1st April 2011, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The reason I suggested that requests for translations be accompanied by photos of the entire weapon was to establish context. Often if we have an idea what type of item and what style or form it is in we can get a better idea of where to begin looking for alphabets or characters and in markings, where to search.

Thanks Andrew and Jim for the clarification
any way, I like the suggestion to present the object involved in its whole,

at least to satisfy our curiosity

and in the same time as a just reward, for a free service

anyway, Jim you touch an essential point,
translation it's easiest when we have a complet view,
associated with some focused pics
sometime, a sign will be neglected, out framed, not appearing on pic,
and prevent completely the reading for a word - a name, even a date

all the best

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2011, 04:27 PM

Beautifully explained re: having the full image of item for translation Dom!
You really do excellent work

and your help with these translations is a monumental asset here, and I always am grateful that you are so good at adding detail and explanations.

Cannonmn, thank you for being so proactive and helpful in your queries as well. With this kind of participation as the discussion continues it genuinely intriguing to read as it develops. These topics are outside my personal field of study, but you guys make it really fun to read! Thank you.

All the best,
Jim

cannonmn · 2nd April 2011, 07:42 PM

Thanks for all of the information. I was somehow hoping the inscription (above the letter "R") would have some kind of date information in it, but apparently not.

In any case, the cannon was represented to me as having come from a particular place in Mexico. I find it very hard to believe, given the presence of Arabic characters, that it really did come from Mexico. The only small bronze cannons I've seen in the U.S. with such Arabic characters have come from either the Philippines or Indonesia. It is possible but I think very unlikely that the cannon was cast and probably used in, say, the Philippines where it got the Arabic characters, then transported all the way to Mexico where it was supposedly used at a presidio.

Dom demonstrated to me how much more legible an inverted image can be, so I've inverted the image of this inscription in case anyone wants a better look at it.

30th March 2011, 12:29 AM	#1
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	What language or script please? I haven't visited in a while, sorry! Now I'm back and need help again. This is a bit of a difficult situation because I don't yet have permission to show the entire item, nor describe exactly what it is-I hope to have that soon. The weapon is bronze, larger and heavier than most discussed here. The "R" at the bottom of the series of characters stands for "Real" in Spanish and was put on the weapon when it was cast for Spain, in a Spanish colony, to show that it was Royal property. I know that because this form of bronze weapon was ONLY cast in certain Spanish colonies for the local Spanish authorities. Now, can anyone recognize the language or script shown on this photo? This is the best photo available. Thanks!

30th March 2011, 06:51 PM	#7
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Dom, thanks. I ran into a somewhat similar situation before when I posted similar characters found on the underside of a Lantaka which came from Midinao, Philippines, although I cannot recall the exact response, would have been on this forum maybe 3 years ago. The type of cannon on which this inscription is engraved is a form of Spanish cannon which was cast in the Spanish-dominated Philippines during the 18th and early 19th Centuries. A couple of examples can be found in Brinckerhoff's SPANISH MILITARY WEAPONS IN COLONIAL AMERICA 1700-1821. My theory is that these small cannons (most seem to be between about 2 and 4 feet in length) were cast for Spain by small bronze foundries in the Philippines, under contract to Spain. There was a major Spanish cannon foundry in Manila, apparently associated with the Manila Arsenal during its operation by Spain, but I think its production was devoted to larger cannon, say three-pounders and upward to at least 24-pounders. I've been in contact with Sid Brinckerhoff, author of the book mentioned, who is also trying to learn more about when and where these small Spanish cannon were cast. The big question is whether their production was limited to the Philippines, or whether they were cast in North America and/or South America as well. I don't think any of these smaller-bore bronze Spanish cannon were cast at the two Royal Cannon Foundries in Spain, namely at Seville and Barcelona. BTW, here's the old thread where I asked for a translation of Jawi on the Lantaka, and was told it was not Jawi, but was non-Arabic language using Arabic characters. Does anyone have a name for this language or script? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=cannonmn Last edited by cannonmn; 30th March 2011 at 07:11 PM. Reason: add info that was omitted before

2nd April 2011, 07:42 PM	#14
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks for all of the information. I was somehow hoping the inscription (above the letter "R") would have some kind of date information in it, but apparently not. In any case, the cannon was represented to me as having come from a particular place in Mexico. I find it very hard to believe, given the presence of Arabic characters, that it really did come from Mexico. The only small bronze cannons I've seen in the U.S. with such Arabic characters have come from either the Philippines or Indonesia. It is possible but I think very unlikely that the cannon was cast and probably used in, say, the Philippines where it got the Arabic characters, then transported all the way to Mexico where it was supposedly used at a presidio. Dom demonstrated to me how much more legible an inverted image can be, so I've inverted the image of this inscription in case anyone wants a better look at it. Last edited by cannonmn; 2nd April 2011 at 08:38 PM. Reason: Add image not available at posting

30th March 2011, 01:13 AM	#3
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Dom thanks for taking the time to reply. He won't return for about two weeks and has no computer where he is, so for that particular weapon we would have to wait, with no certainty of a positive reply at the end. I spent a few minutes trying to find a way to post an image, and let's see if this way works: I have a photo of a weapon which is identical in every possible way except for the markings. If you would accept an image of the twin, I could post an image of it as the restrictions I am under with images of his weapon do not apply. Yes this is stupid, but unfortunately it is the only way I know how to do this.

30th March 2011, 01:45 AM	#4
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	don't mention, you are welcome the webmaster has only the ability to agree for an exception ... is him who fix the rules, and I'm just a member, I have to comply with the rules, no more, sorry à + Dom

30th March 2011, 02:39 AM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Here is the identical weapon, for your consideration, except as I mentioned, the markings differ, and "markedly so."

30th March 2011, 10:45 PM	#8
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	In casting about on the web, I found an article about Arabic writing on Moro armor. Unfortunately I'm not qualified to determine whether his article has information pertaining to my questions or not. In any case he mentions scripts known as "thuluth" and "nastaliq." His article is here: http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/07/ar...oro-armor.html

1st April 2011, 04:27 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,775	Beautifully explained re: having the full image of item for translation Dom! You really do excellent work and your help with these translations is a monumental asset here, and I always am grateful that you are so good at adding detail and explanations. Cannonmn, thank you for being so proactive and helpful in your queries as well. With this kind of participation as the discussion continues it genuinely intriguing to read as it develops. These topics are outside my personal field of study, but you guys make it really fun to read! Thank you. All the best, Jim