The Scythe as a weapon.

Teisani · 5th January 2023, 01:49 PM

If you are interested in the falx, you can try Borangic Cătălin's work. It's in Romanian, but the pictures of relics are nice a reference. Here are a few of his works, you can find more, just search "falx Borangic Cătălin".

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/1978947/Bor..._reconstituire

https://www.slideshare.net/dadamamus...emvs-i-12-2006

https://www.laurlucus.ro/bibliotheca...-reconstituire

https://archive.org/details/borangic...ge/n1/mode/2up

And one source for the sica (in Russian): https://proviaspublishing.com/wp-con...0%B8%D1%8F.pdf

Peter Hudson · 5th January 2023, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teisani

If you are interested in the falx, you can try Borangic Cătălin's work. It's in Romanian, but the pictures of relics are nice a reference. Here are a few of his works, you can find more, just search "falx Borangic Cătălin".

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/1978947/Bor..._reconstituire

https://www.slideshare.net/dadamamus...emvs-i-12-2006

https://www.laurlucus.ro/bibliotheca...-reconstituire

https://archive.org/details/borangic...ge/n1/mode/2up

And one source for the sica (in Russian): https://proviaspublishing.com/wp-con...0%B8%D1%8F.pdf

Dear Teisani,
Thank you very much for a set of brilliant references I just spent an hour looking at the fascinating studies ... Excellent!!!

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2023, 07:46 PM

This is a brilliant and as always, thorough, examination of the scythe and the weapons it inspired through history. Its an amazing and as seen here, complex topic as the etymology and use of the term of course seems to have been used in some variation such as referring to a deeply curved blade. Clearly the chief advantage of the inside curve is that the blade essentially grabs its target holding to it as it cuts.

The interesting and somewhat mysterious Black Sea 'yataghan' (pictured with burgundy scabbard) was in years before compared to the khopesh of ancient Egypt, which of course was a purely visual notion. It was also similar to an Assyrian sword with similar recurve. These 18th century swords were later determined to be Laz Bichagi from Transcaucasian regions and Anatolia.
I would note the Assyrian sword was shown in Burton (1884, p.208) as a 'sapara' and had a blade with inside curve. Other Assyrian weapons were hafted sickle types with deep curve as well.

Other modern versions of 'sickle' sword would be the shotel of Ethiopia of 19th century used into 20th. This deeply parabolic bladed sword was believed to facilitate reaching over or around a defending shield. (last image)

The 16th century German saber from Germany with sickle blade is most interesting and reminds me somewhat of art by Durer with similar dusagge type swords. The chain on the hilt is of interest and I hadnt realized this affectation was this early. It is of course well known on court and various European dress swords of late 17th through 18th c. and later.
The runic inscriptions are amazing!!!

Great note on the grinding wheels and these machines in the great Shotley Bridge mystery! the fascinating book by Keith revealing more on this subject as well as the complex intrigues of sword making in England in the17th into 18th century. Some of the most tenacious research I have ever seen.

Peter Hudson · 5th January 2023, 09:27 PM

Thanks Jim that is a great post and carries superb details and pictures adding depth to the theme ...Regards Peter Hudson.

I thought just to field a battle scene painted and showing Scythemen deploying for battle in Poland. Scythemen in 1831, led by Emilia Plater. Gouache by Jan Rosen

urbanspaceman · 7th January 2023, 07:49 PM

Hello Peter. Thank-you for this fascinating thread and thank-you even more for that peening video: I was transfixed.
The grass and weeds in my back garden would benefit from a good scything but will have to make do with a powered brush cutter.
However, it seems to me that the peening technique will make a good job of the edge on my garden machete; I am sure I can rig up a suitable anvil to practice with.
Incidentally: I didn't see anything about wheels... am I overlooking something?

On a separate note apropos of that double mention of my Shotley Bridge research: the book just keeps getting better and better as I continue to re-draft, amend and augment. One day I will have to stop. Up to date pdf versions are readily available... just ask.

kronckew · 8th January 2023, 05:03 PM

The khopesh appears to have evolved from the Epsilon Axe popular in the area at the time. Not from the sickle or scythe. Being ductile bronze, it (and the epsilon) was not used for chopping, but for slicing draw and push cuts. There was a 'chopping' version of the axe, the duckbill, that was designed for chopping, and the egyptian bronze penetrative axe was also.

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2023, 07:02 PM

Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons.

It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.

Peter Hudson · 8th January 2023, 07:44 PM

Dear Kronckew,

Indeed it is the difficulty in knowing what a Scythe looked like in ancient times which makes how if at all it developed into a weapon... It is probable that a sickle form developed into a weapon although where and when and what these weapons were is a hard guess... Add to that the number of sword types as in the second picture on https://www.pinterest.co.uk/buzzpinard/swords/
As the search spreads out so do the permutations and many must be developments in a similar but quite unrelated forms such as at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karambit Add the Panabas to that situation seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panabas

Closer to home may be the creation we know as Yatagan... however my initial question was I hope more specific and which I hope I have indicated in and arround the Polish variants of purely battle pole arms in the pictures at thread. As a caveat to that I am interested in knowing what Austria has to do with the tool and or weapon? since the Scythe is often termed The Austrian Scythe....and did that come about from a Sword type or Scythe introduced from Ottoman concepts into Styria?
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 8th January 2023, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hello Peter. Thank-you for this fascinating thread and thank-you even more for that peening video: I was transfixed.
The grass and weeds in my back garden would benefit from a good scything but will have to make do with a powered brush cutter.
However, it seems to me that the peening technique will make a good job of the edge on my garden machete; I am sure I can rig up a suitable anvil to practice with.
Incidentally: I didn't see anything about wheels... am I overlooking something?

On a separate note apropos of that double mention of my Shotley Bridge research: the book just keeps getting better and better as I continue to re-draft, amend and augment. One day I will have to stop. Up to date pdf versions are readily available... just ask.

Dear Keith, Yes the wheel confusion was because at first sight the Jigs looked like small wheels...A good scythe sharpener could finish dozens of Scythes a day using these tools. It seemed to me that hollow grinding may have been related to this effect. Look up http://scytheassociation.org/history/ as a great reference on Scythes.

Regards Peter.

5th January 2023, 01:49 PM	#1
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	If you are interested in the falx, you can try Borangic Cătălin's work. It's in Romanian, but the pictures of relics are nice a reference. Here are a few of his works, you can find more, just search "falx Borangic Cătălin". http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf https://www.academia.edu/1978947/Bor..._reconstituire https://www.slideshare.net/dadamamus...emvs-i-12-2006 https://www.laurlucus.ro/bibliotheca...-reconstituire https://archive.org/details/borangic...ge/n1/mode/2up And one source for the sica (in Russian): https://proviaspublishing.com/wp-con...0%B8%D1%8F.pdf Last edited by Teisani; 5th January 2023 at 02:11 PM.

5th January 2023, 07:46 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	This is a brilliant and as always, thorough, examination of the scythe and the weapons it inspired through history. Its an amazing and as seen here, complex topic as the etymology and use of the term of course seems to have been used in some variation such as referring to a deeply curved blade. Clearly the chief advantage of the inside curve is that the blade essentially grabs its target holding to it as it cuts. The interesting and somewhat mysterious Black Sea 'yataghan' (pictured with burgundy scabbard) was in years before compared to the khopesh of ancient Egypt, which of course was a purely visual notion. It was also similar to an Assyrian sword with similar recurve. These 18th century swords were later determined to be Laz Bichagi from Transcaucasian regions and Anatolia. I would note the Assyrian sword was shown in Burton (1884, p.208) as a 'sapara' and had a blade with inside curve. Other Assyrian weapons were hafted sickle types with deep curve as well. Other modern versions of 'sickle' sword would be the shotel of Ethiopia of 19th century used into 20th. This deeply parabolic bladed sword was believed to facilitate reaching over or around a defending shield. (last image) The 16th century German saber from Germany with sickle blade is most interesting and reminds me somewhat of art by Durer with similar dusagge type swords. The chain on the hilt is of interest and I hadnt realized this affectation was this early. It is of course well known on court and various European dress swords of late 17th through 18th c. and later. The runic inscriptions are amazing!!! Great note on the grinding wheels and these machines in the great Shotley Bridge mystery! the fascinating book by Keith revealing more on this subject as well as the complex intrigues of sword making in England in the17th into 18th century. Some of the most tenacious research I have ever seen. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th January 2023 at 08:22 PM.

5th January 2023, 09:27 PM	#4
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 311	Thanks Jim that is a great post and carries superb details and pictures adding depth to the theme ...Regards Peter Hudson. I thought just to field a battle scene painted and showing Scythemen deploying for battle in Poland. Scythemen in 1831, led by Emilia Plater. Gouache by Jan Rosen Attached Images

7th January 2023, 07:49 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	wheels? what wheels Hello Peter. Thank-you for this fascinating thread and thank-you even more for that peening video: I was transfixed. The grass and weeds in my back garden would benefit from a good scything but will have to make do with a powered brush cutter. However, it seems to me that the peening technique will make a good job of the edge on my garden machete; I am sure I can rig up a suitable anvil to practice with. Incidentally: I didn't see anything about wheels... am I overlooking something? On a separate note apropos of that double mention of my Shotley Bridge research: the book just keeps getting better and better as I continue to re-draft, amend and augment. One day I will have to stop. Up to date pdf versions are readily available... just ask.

8th January 2023, 05:03 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	The khopesh appears to have evolved from the Epsilon Axe popular in the area at the time. Not from the sickle or scythe. Being ductile bronze, it (and the epsilon) was not used for chopping, but for slicing draw and push cuts. There was a 'chopping' version of the axe, the duckbill, that was designed for chopping, and the egyptian bronze penetrative axe was also. Attached Images

8th January 2023, 07:02 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons. It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.

8th January 2023, 07:44 PM	#8
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 311	Dear Kronckew, Indeed it is the difficulty in knowing what a Scythe looked like in ancient times which makes how if at all it developed into a weapon... It is probable that a sickle form developed into a weapon although where and when and what these weapons were is a hard guess... Add to that the number of sword types as in the second picture on https://www.pinterest.co.uk/buzzpinard/swords/ As the search spreads out so do the permutations and many must be developments in a similar but quite unrelated forms such as at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karambit Add the Panabas to that situation seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panabas Closer to home may be the creation we know as Yatagan... however my initial question was I hope more specific and which I hope I have indicated in and arround the Polish variants of purely battle pole arms in the pictures at thread. As a caveat to that I am interested in knowing what Austria has to do with the tool and or weapon? since the Scythe is often termed The Austrian Scythe....and did that come about from a Sword type or Scythe introduced from Ottoman concepts into Styria? Regards, Peter Hudson.