Katars with protrusion

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd August 2016, 03:28 PM

Roland,
Do you remember what the auction text said?

mariusgmioc · 22nd August 2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Roland,
Do you remember what the auction text said?

The question is legitimate but don't hold your breath!

I found out that in rather too many cases their descriptions are inaccurate at best.

mariusgmioc · 22nd August 2016, 03:49 PM

Hello,

In my oppinion (in other words I'm just guessing), the protruding bars of these Katars are nothing but the result of the way they were made. Namely the cross-bars were inserted in the perforations in the extending arms and their ends were riveted, resulting the protrusions we see.

I have seen Katars like these with diferent types of blades, diferent levels of decoration and diferent quality of workmanship so I don't think they can be attributed to a particular location or time period.

Like for example the hilt of a classic Kard can be with two scales or made in one piece, or like a Tulwar can have a hilt with a hand guard (knuckle bow) or not.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd August 2016, 03:52 PM

Hi Marius :-)

Yes I know, but it would interest me to know all the same.

estcrh · 23rd August 2016, 05:51 PM

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...7/lot.137.html
A steel three-bladed push dagger (katar), India, 17th century
Estimate 2,000 — 3,000 GBP
LOT SOLD. 6,250 GBP (Hammer Price with Buyer's Premium)

A steel three-bladed push dagger (katar), India, 17th century
the three tapering blades chiselled with a central palmette ridge, the grip with four fretted crossbars with protruding terminals, modern metal stand with fitted armature, 41 cm. (16 1/8 in.)

This rare katar belongs to a group of early-17th-century push daggers. A 17th-century steel katar with four similar fretted crossbars from a Danish private collection was exhibited at the David Collection in 1982 and is illustrated in Copenhagen 1982, no.135. A similar triple-bladed katar is in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (Elgood 2004, p.160, no.15.34).

A katar with a closely related hilt and double-bladed dagger is in the collection of Lord Clive at Powis Castle (Powis 1987, pp.42-3, no.21). A number of katars of this type were presented by the 'Jagirdar of Alipura, Bundelkand' to the Prince of Wales in 1875 or 1876 and said to date from the eighteenth century.

Although katars were popular in the Mughal and Deccani courts, Welch attributes the origin of the katar to Southern India (see Welch 1985, p.271).

estcrh · 23rd August 2016, 05:58 PM

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...4-details.aspx

A GOLD-DAMASCENED THREE-BLADE PUSH DAGGER (KATAR)
INDIA, 19TH CENTURY
Price Realised
GBP 20,000
USD 30,040

A GOLD-DAMASCENED THREE-BLADE PUSH DAGGER (KATAR)
INDIA, 19TH CENTURY
The hilt of typical form with three cross bars, the surface densely decorated with gold scrolling vine with alternating sides issuing flowerheads or grapes, the base with an inscription in devanagari, the three tapering blades each with three raised ridges the central one emerging from palmette terminal at chappe
13¼in. (36.2cm.) long

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd August 2016, 09:35 PM

Eric,
I think this thread gets more and more interesting, not be course of the prices, but due to the age span.

estcrh · 24th August 2016, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Eric,
I think this thread gets more and more interesting, not be course of the prices, but due to the age span.

Yes, if you can believe the age estimates.

Here is a slightly different example from Runjeet.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st October 2017, 04:18 PM

Looking at old threads I found this one.

Roland, the katar you show in thread 22 must be from the same place as the ones with protrusions. Unfortunately I have not had time yet to dig into this subject, but when I have I will write more about it.

Eric, The katar Sotheby's refer to, from the David Collection in 1982 is thai one. See my catalogue pp. 127-128.

Well Eric, there are differences. Have a look at the one Roland shows without protrusions, the one you show, and the one I show.
The protrusions are clearly shown on the one I show, but on the one you show the protrusions are a 'lump' - more or less. I also have some of these katars, and I am wondering how they came from being clearly shown to being a 'lump' and dissapear at all.
I think that more katars belong to this group - but research will show.

22nd August 2016, 03:49 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	Hello, In my oppinion (in other words I'm just guessing), the protruding bars of these Katars are nothing but the result of the way they were made. Namely the cross-bars were inserted in the perforations in the extending arms and their ends were riveted, resulting the protrusions we see. I have seen Katars like these with diferent types of blades, diferent levels of decoration and diferent quality of workmanship so I don't think they can be attributed to a particular location or time period. Like for example the hilt of a classic Kard can be with two scales or made in one piece, or like a Tulwar can have a hilt with a hand guard (knuckle bow) or not. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 22nd August 2016 at 04:24 PM.

23rd August 2016, 05:51 PM	#5
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...7/lot.137.html A steel three-bladed push dagger (katar), India, 17th century Estimate 2,000 — 3,000 GBP LOT SOLD. 6,250 GBP (Hammer Price with Buyer's Premium) A steel three-bladed push dagger (katar), India, 17th century the three tapering blades chiselled with a central palmette ridge, the grip with four fretted crossbars with protruding terminals, modern metal stand with fitted armature, 41 cm. (16 1/8 in.) This rare katar belongs to a group of early-17th-century push daggers. A 17th-century steel katar with four similar fretted crossbars from a Danish private collection was exhibited at the David Collection in 1982 and is illustrated in Copenhagen 1982, no.135. A similar triple-bladed katar is in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (Elgood 2004, p.160, no.15.34). A katar with a closely related hilt and double-bladed dagger is in the collection of Lord Clive at Powis Castle (Powis 1987, pp.42-3, no.21). A number of katars of this type were presented by the 'Jagirdar of Alipura, Bundelkand' to the Prince of Wales in 1875 or 1876 and said to date from the eighteenth century. Although katars were popular in the Mughal and Deccani courts, Welch attributes the origin of the katar to Southern India (see Welch 1985, p.271). Attached Images

23rd August 2016, 05:58 PM	#6
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...4-details.aspx A GOLD-DAMASCENED THREE-BLADE PUSH DAGGER (KATAR) INDIA, 19TH CENTURY Price Realised GBP 20,000 USD 30,040 A GOLD-DAMASCENED THREE-BLADE PUSH DAGGER (KATAR) INDIA, 19TH CENTURY The hilt of typical form with three cross bars, the surface densely decorated with gold scrolling vine with alternating sides issuing flowerheads or grapes, the base with an inscription in devanagari, the three tapering blades each with three raised ridges the central one emerging from palmette terminal at chappe 13¼in. (36.2cm.) long Attached Images Last edited by estcrh; 23rd August 2016 at 06:09 PM.

21st October 2017, 04:18 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Looking at old threads I found this one. Roland, the katar you show in thread 22 must be from the same place as the ones with protrusions. Unfortunately I have not had time yet to dig into this subject, but when I have I will write more about it. Eric, The katar Sotheby's refer to, from the David Collection in 1982 is thai one. See my catalogue pp. 127-128. Well Eric, there are differences. Have a look at the one Roland shows without protrusions, the one you show, and the one I show. The protrusions are clearly shown on the one I show, but on the one you show the protrusions are a 'lump' - more or less. I also have some of these katars, and I am wondering how they came from being clearly shown to being a 'lump' and dissapear at all. I think that more katars belong to this group - but research will show. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 21st October 2017 at 09:23 PM.

22nd August 2016, 03:28 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Roland, Do you remember what the auction text said?

22nd August 2016, 03:52 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Marius :-) Yes I know, but it would interest me to know all the same.

23rd August 2016, 09:35 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Eric, I think this thread gets more and more interesting, not be course of the prices, but due to the age span.