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Old 7th June 2022, 01:31 AM   #1
Anthony G.
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Default Balinese hulu identification

Demon, Deity?
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Old 7th June 2022, 02:19 AM   #2
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Fangs?
I'd guess demon.
This little fellow below seems to be a relative of his.
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Old 7th June 2022, 03:07 AM   #3
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Fangs?
I'd guess demon.
This little fellow below seems to be a relative of his.

Nice old Balinese keris you got there, Rick.

Btw, do you know the actual name and role of that demon in Hindu culture?
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Old 7th June 2022, 10:44 AM   #4
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I agree with Rick. Generally fangs designate a figure as a “demon” so I would be likely to place this one there.
We have had the discussion numerous times regarding the difficulty in making positive identification of Bali togogan hilts, especially newer ones since many contemporary carvers don’t necessarily stick to strick traditional patterns, but I am sure I have seen this particular naked demon child before in older hilts. So maybe we have hope for a reasonable ID with this one. Can’t say I know it yet though.
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Old 7th June 2022, 11:17 AM   #5
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Indeed I run a search ad there are many examples on line of this type of hilt, whether with or without fangs, the Pot bellied “ baby” showing his genitals is a rather“ common” image.

Despite this, no one (even among the experts of famous auction houses ) seem to have found a “ name”

The Tropen Museum of Amsterdam has one in its collection too.
“..'Ivory kris hilt representing an evil spirit', 1800-1900, ivory, 10.2 cm height, accession number 809-219a, collection of the Tropenmuseum, Amsterdam...”

I find very interesting that many describe the figurine as “ sitting on a flower bed” but to me there seems to be a relation between the position of the exposed penis and the direction of the “ flow” of what looks like bubbles or flowers.
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Old 7th June 2022, 01:05 PM   #6
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Despite this, no one (even among the experts of famous auction houses ) seem to have found a “ name”
Pff, Rare Kumara or Sang Hyang Kumara or Detya Rare, etc.

Last edited by Jean; 7th June 2022 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 7th June 2022, 01:24 PM   #7
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from the book about hilts by E.A.N. Van Veenendaal
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Old 7th June 2022, 01:55 PM   #8
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=rare+kumara
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Old 7th June 2022, 02:04 PM   #9
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from the book about hilts by E.A.N. Van Veenendaal
Thank you! the best way to teach is to give information without any attempt to deride ignorance
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Old 7th June 2022, 02:12 PM   #10
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I wrote something about these child totogans some time back for a friend, I'm sure he will not object to me sharing it.

In fact, once the fangs come into the picture, it is not Rare Kumara, but Rare Angon.

Here is a lift from what I wrote:-

"--- these naked little boy figures can be understood as either Sang Hyang Rare Kumara who was Siwa's son --- adopted I think --- or as Dewa Rare Angon, who is an aspect of Siwa himself.

In Javanese "rare" is the alternative spelling of "lare" which is literary usage for "young child". Javanese literary usage is mostly from Kawi, which in turn is mostly Sanskrit. Sanskrit formed a large part of Old Javanese (as distinct from Modern Javanese) and Modern Balinese is based upon Old Javanese & the indigenous Balinese languages.

In Balinese language the word "rare" (the final "e" is accented= Pron:- 'Rahreh') means a baby or a young child, but when we use it as a part of a name, it becomes the name. "Sang Hyang" is a title for a God, "sang" is an epithet, "hyang" is a Hindu God title, this "Sang Hyang" is often represented as simply "Dewa" = the short title for a deity.

There is a wayang story that involves Dewa Rare (ie, Sang Hyang Rare) that boils down to him escaping danger, so Dewa Rare is regarded as the God of children who protects children. He is a part of the Yadnya ceremony, and also at least one of the ceremonies performed for the safety of a baby , I think it might be the seventh ceremony, not sure.

The other way a Rare motif can be understood is as an aspect of Siwa (ie, Shiva). This is Rare Angon, whose other names are Mahakala and Rudra.
In this case I would expect to see a representation of fangs in the motif, because Rare Angon has a demonic nature.

He is the son of Siwa and Uma. Story is more or less like this:- Uma had sex with a cowherd whose name was Rare Angon, but in reality, Rare Angon was Siwa in disguise. Lots more to the story but not relevant to this motif.---"
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Old 7th June 2022, 02:27 PM   #11
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I was wondering if this was the same figure as one I have just bought it is a man (adult) with one hand (right) holding his penis and the other one one of his buttock.

The carving is I think Indonesian and I have seen it before. It is mounted on a block of wood and MAY (but the hole where a stud to support it is not too deep) be even used on a kris with a short peksi
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Old 7th June 2022, 03:40 PM   #12
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I find very interesting that many describe the figurine as “ sitting on a flower bed” but to me there seems to be a relation between the position of the exposed penis and the direction of the “ flow” of what looks like bubbles or flowers.
As with many things Indonesian there is probably more than one meaning at work here, but i believe that what you refer to is probably firstly meant to represent the Tumpal Throne that we see in many Bali hilts as well as a few Javanese ones. But given the positioning off the figure it does often seem to look like a flow of the figures urine.
I found this article discussing this little fellow as well.
https://issuu.com/armscavalcade/docs...020/s/11135230
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Old 7th June 2022, 04:05 PM   #13
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As with many things Indonesian there is probably more than one meaning at work here, but i believe that what you refer to is probably firstly meant to represent the Tumpal Throne that we see in many Bali hilts as well as a few Javanese ones. But given the positioning off the figure it does often seem to look like a flow of the figures urine.
I found this article discussing this little fellow as well.
https://issuu.com/armscavalcade/docs...020/s/11135230
So he is actually a deity if i interpreted it correctly. My Balinese pal gave a wrong representation as he called it a demon. Maybe the fangs. Either way, this figure reminds me of my childhood running around in the farm.
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Old 7th June 2022, 07:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by milandro View Post
I was wondering if this was the same figure as one I have just bought it is a man (adult) with one hand (right) holding his penis and the other one one of his buttock.

The carving is I think Indonesian and I have seen it before. It is mounted on a block of wood and MAY (but the hole where a stud to support it is not too deep) be even used on a kris with a short peksi
The object that I have ( I won’t post a picture because I intend to sell it) appears to be a betelnut chisel/crusher/pestel hilt.

The image may even be the one of the god mentioned above. I have found another one on line with an erected penis image , so it may not be as weird as I originally thought.
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Old 7th June 2022, 11:24 PM   #15
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Anthony, we are dealing with Rare Angon here, Rare Kumara does not have fangs, when we see the 'rare' form & we add fangs we have Rare Angon.

Rare Angon has other names, and first amongst those names is Rudra, we find Rudra in the Balinese Mandala, he is the God of the South West & his colour is orange. Rudra appears in the Vedas and was one of the contributing influences to the development of Siwa (Shiva).

Before Rudra was given the name "Rudra" by Brahma he was known as Mahadewa. After he was named as Rudra he then received seven other names:- Bhawa, Sarwa, Isono, Pasupati, Bhima, Ugra, & his original name: Mahadewa.

Then there is the relationship with Siwa.

Depending upon what sources we choose to accept, the names of Rudra can vary considerably, and also his existence as a single entity --- there can be multiple Rudras. For mainline Hindu relationships I prefer to use Dowson "A Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology", for Balinese relationships I use a number of different sources as well as stuff I've picked up from personal contact.

So, getting back to demons. I believe your Balinese friend was near enough with his "demon" attribution. Rare Angon has a demonic nature, as Rudra his nature has both a demonic aspect and a beneficial aspect.

Don't forget that when we are dealing with ordinary Balinese people they only have ordinary levels of understanding, even people whom we might expect would know & understand more are often somewhat ignorant and/or confused by all the iconography and the varied ways of understanding something.

To reach the level of understanding that is required to get some sort of understanding from Balinese expression we need Balinese specialists, usually Brahmins, or access to a very good library. Ordinary people, even very famous members of the Pande Clan are usually very limited in their understandings.
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Old 7th June 2022, 11:51 PM   #16
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Nice old Balinese keris you got there, Rick.

Btw, do you know the actual name and role of that demon in Hindu culture?
Hi Anthony,
I'm not sure this is a Bali keris. I think possibly its source may be Lombok.
These Iras blades turn up now and then, but not too often, the style, (is this the word I'm looking for?) certainly seems consistent. I'd almost think that the same Smith may have made more than a few of this construction. This keris is discussed in the forum archives.

Anyway, back to the totogan discussion.
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Old 8th June 2022, 01:35 AM   #17
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Anthony, we are dealing with Rare Angon here, Rare Kumara does not have fangs, when we see the 'rare' form & we add fangs we have Rare Angon.

Rare Angon has other names, and first amongst those names is Rudra, we find Rudra in the Balinese Mandala, he is the God of the South West & his colour is orange. Rudra appears in the Vedas and was one of the contributing influences to the development of Siwa (Shiva).

Before Rudra was given the name "Rudra" by Brahma he was known as Mahadewa. After he was named as Rudra he then received seven other names:- Bhawa, Sarwa, Isono, Pasupati, Bhima, Ugra, & his original name: Mahadewa.

Then there is the relationship with Siwa.

Depending upon what sources we choose to accept, the names of Rudra can vary considerably, and also his existence as a single entity --- there can be multiple Rudras. For mainline Hindu relationships I prefer to use Dowson "A Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology", for Balinese relationships I use a number of different sources as well as stuff I've picked up from personal contact.

So, getting back to demons. I believe your Balinese friend was near enough with his "demon" attribution. Rare Angon has a demonic nature, as Rudra his nature has both a demonic aspect and a beneficial aspect.

Don't forget that when we are dealing with ordinary Balinese people they only have ordinary levels of understanding, even people whom we might expect would know & understand more are often somewhat ignorant and/or confused by all the iconography and the varied ways of understanding something.

To reach the level of understanding that is required to get some sort of understanding from Balinese expression we need Balinese specialists, usually Brahmins, or access to a very good library. Ordinary people, even very famous members of the Pande Clan are usually very limited in their understandings.

Thanks Alan, this info of yours are good and I will add into my keris diary book.
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Old 8th June 2022, 01:36 AM   #18
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Hi Anthony,
I'm not sure this is a Bali keris. I think possibly its source may be Lombok.
These Iras blades turn up now and then, but not too often, the style, (is this the word I'm looking for?) certainly seems consistent. I'd almost think that the same Smith may have made more than a few of this construction. This keris is discussed in the forum archives.

Anyway, back to the totogan discussion.
Thanks for the info.
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Old 8th June 2022, 08:47 AM   #19
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A typical specimen of the "demonic boy". According to some sources, he is the son of Shiva and Parvati, and hence the brother of Ganesha. What an odd family!
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Old 8th June 2022, 08:53 AM   #20
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the betelnut pestel/crusher hilt that I have represents also this curl in his hair but the person is positively an adutl, no fangs
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Old 8th June 2022, 09:43 AM   #21
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A typical specimen of the "demonic boy". According to some sources, he is the son of Shiva and Parvati, and hence the brother of Ganesha. What an odd family!
odd indeed. Btw, what does Guardian of the holy area means?
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